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Old 10-14-2015, 05:41 PM   #1
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I don't know why everyone has to be headliner material to be taken seriously or given meaningful investment. It doesn't have to be this black and white, headliner or bust mentality. That's why they're in the current predicament they're in with no credible main eventers except Cena and Lesnar.

In all reality, you're only really going to have one headline, face of the company attraction. It was Hogan, or Austin, and now Cena. Those three are clearly not interchangeable. However, if you book the next level of talent to be of significance and present them as important then you at least have credible quasi main eventers who could be the opposition to your main star or even, as in CM Punk or Daniel Bryan's case, high enough that they're the number two guy who can have a Mania main event and be able to sell it.

Thinking you have to have nothing but mega star caliber talents is never going to be realistic. There has to be a pecking order in place where you have talent who's good enough to main event and have fans believe in it even if everyone knows Cena is still the man.
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Old 10-15-2015, 11:45 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
I don't know why everyone has to be headliner material to be taken seriously or given meaningful investment. It doesn't have to be this black and white, headliner or bust mentality. That's why they're in the current predicament they're in with no credible main eventers except Cena and Lesnar.

In all reality, you're only really going to have one headline, face of the company attraction. It was Hogan, or Austin, and now Cena. Those three are clearly not interchangeable. However, if you book the next level of talent to be of significance and present them as important then you at least have credible quasi main eventers who could be the opposition to your main star or even, as in CM Punk or Daniel Bryan's case, high enough that they're the number two guy who can have a Mania main event and be able to sell it.

Thinking you have to have nothing but mega star caliber talents is never going to be realistic. There has to be a pecking order in place where you have talent who's good enough to main event and have fans believe in it even if everyone knows Cena is still the man.
True. But they have that.

Cena is still the top guy.

Then you got guys like Taker, Brock , and Rollins just below that.

Then you have the glut of guys like Reigns, Ambrose, Wyatt, Owens, Orton, Sheamus, New Day, Ryback and Ziggler. Any of those guys could move into main event programs and have secondary titles to fight for.

And then another tier of guys who get steady TV time but don't seem to have traction like Rusev, Cesaro, Big Show, Miz, Neville, Barrett, etc
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Old 10-14-2015, 07:25 PM   #3
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This is basically the point we're at now...

CyNick: "Seth Rollins losing to John Cena isn't a bad thing."

"No one said it was."

CyNick: "LOL explain to me how losing to the face of the company is a bad thing."
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Old 10-14-2015, 07:26 PM   #4
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"Damien Sandow was over and has tons of charisma and should be featured somewhere in the show."

"Do you REALLY think he can headline!? Come on!"

"..."
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Old 10-15-2015, 07:40 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
This is basically the point we're at now...

CyNick: "Seth Rollins losing to John Cena isn't a bad thing."

"No one said it was."

CyNick: "LOL explain to me how losing to the face of the company is a bad thing."
Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
"Damien Sandow was over and has tons of charisma and should be featured somewhere in the show."

"Do you REALLY think he can headline!? Come on!"

"..."
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Old 10-14-2015, 10:03 PM   #6
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I'd also argue that CyNick missed the main point of the Taker-Foley feud:

It more or less reinvigorated 'Taker's career. There was like a 7 year stretch where Taker was facing large men who were the drizzling shits in the ring, and couldn't draw shit. Mankind was the feud he needed. Beyond just the matches, Mankind was a compelling foil for the Dead Man. A man who can't be hurt is hard to build sympathy for. You need something different, a guy with no regard for his own wellbeing. It didn't hurt that he could work.

Taker-Foley makes more sense if you look at the before and the aftermath: Before, Taker was a midcard special attraction. After, Taker was a main eventer. Foley debuted and became the special attraction.
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Old 10-14-2015, 10:17 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vastardikai View Post
I'd also argue that CyNick missed the main point of the Taker-Foley feud:

It more or less reinvigorated 'Taker's career. There was like a 7 year stretch where Taker was facing large men who were the drizzling shits in the ring, and couldn't draw shit. Mankind was the feud he needed. Beyond just the matches, Mankind was a compelling foil for the Dead Man. A man who can't be hurt is hard to build sympathy for. You need something different, a guy with no regard for his own wellbeing. It didn't hurt that he could work.

Taker-Foley makes more sense if you look at the before and the aftermath: Before, Taker was a midcard special attraction. After, Taker was a main eventer. Foley debuted and became the special attraction.
I never said Taker-Foley was bad

What I said was it was similar to a lot of the feuds with Cena, where Cena will put a guy over in the first big match, but then eventually edge out the series. The difference is things move faster today than they did in 1996, so feuds last 3-4 months instead of 6-8.

But in my opinion some people are remembering Taker putting over Foley, and pretending like he came in, Taker put him over, and he stayed in the main event from then on. The REALITY of the program was Taker lost initially at KOTR, and then the bogus finish at Summerslam. But from then on and for a good 6 months, it was nothing but Taker beating Foley left and right. And after that, Foley went way down the card in random programs.

Its pretty much the same thing that happened with guys like Rusev and Owens, who got a nice rub from working with Cena, and even beating him, but ultimately lost the feud and moved down the card.
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Old 10-15-2015, 08:08 PM   #8
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The WWE have succeeded in making me stop caring about Daniel Bryan, Cesaro, Dean Ambrose, Paige and Becky Lynch. They've achieved something with that.
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Old 10-15-2015, 08:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
The WWE have succeeded in making me stop caring about Daniel Bryan, Cesaro, Dean Ambrose, Paige and Becky Lynch. They've achieved something with that.
I could add Jack Swagger, Neville, Curtis Axle, Team BAD, and a few others to that list.


Its like if your not the WWE champion or John Cena your not shit. Hell, even the WWE champion cant be booked to look stronger than Cena. If Roman is guy they want to be the next top guy, I think WWE will be in trouble. No one is going to get behind Roman as the top face like they do Cena. I personally believe Roman will be his best as a heel. He tries to do Cena jokes and make people laugh, its just not him. I really think the talent today is better than the late 90s and and early 2000s. I feel the only problem with todays talent is that they depend to much on the WWE. I feel like the rosters of old were more independent and less reliant on the WWE, but also didnt have as many resourses as todays talent do.
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Old 10-16-2015, 09:55 AM   #10
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I could add Jack Swagger, Neville, Curtis Axle, Team BAD, and a few others to that.
Aside from Sasha who will be a star in time, all of those guys had lower mid card ceilings.

You really think Curtis Axel is a star waiting to happen? He's lucky to have a job.

You guys really need to appreciate the difference between a money player and a comedy act.
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Old 10-16-2015, 09:52 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
The WWE have succeeded in making me stop caring about Daniel Bryan, Cesaro, Dean Ambrose, Paige and Becky Lynch. They've achieved something with that.
You're absolutely hilarious.

Daniel Bryan was the man after 30. He got injured. Somehow that's WWE's fault? And i get called a troll? Jokes!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-16-2015, 09:56 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
You're absolutely hilarious.

Daniel Bryan was the man after 30. He got injured. Somehow that's WWE's fault? And i get called a troll? Jokes!!!!!!!!!
To be fair, before he got hurt he got stuck with the big red albatross
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Old 10-16-2015, 10:00 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovator View Post
To be fair, before he got hurt he got stuck with the big red albatross
What's the problem with that? Kane is a vet who can help establish Bryan as a credible champion. Who should he have programed with and would that have prevented him from going down?
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Old 10-15-2015, 08:53 PM   #14
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Reigns has had no real journey. Thinking about it, if they REALLY wanted Reigns to challenge Lesnar for the WWE Title at WrestleMania this year, I think he should have won the Money in the Bank match for the title. He could have kept the title at Battleground, so he didn't look like a fluke champion, then be destroyed at SummerSlam by Lesnar. That way his win in the Royal Rumble and his challenge to Lesnar would have marked some sort of improvement.
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Old 10-15-2015, 08:57 PM   #15
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Just realizing that CyNick's inability to understand that there's a huge world to take advantage of between "nothing" and "main event" is the same problem WWE seems to have. Things are making sense.

I can actually see some writer pitching an idea for Damien Sandow for a good, entertaining mid to upper-midcard story for Sandow that is showcased somewhere in the middle of Raw every week and Vince responding with "Fuck that, he's not a main eventer!"
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Old 10-16-2015, 09:58 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Just realizing that CyNick's inability to understand that there's a huge world to take advantage of between "nothing" and "main event" is the same problem WWE seems to have. Things are making sense.

I can actually see some writer pitching an idea for Damien Sandow for a good, entertaining mid to upper-midcard story for Sandow that is showcased somewhere in the middle of Raw every week and Vince responding with "Fuck that, he's not a main eventer!"
Were you watching when Sandow was featured week in and week out? He did exactly what you wanted. He had a nice little program based on comedy. It ran is course!

He's not talented enough to transition to a serious program where he can move up the card. The only thing he can do is comedy. That's cool, that means you are barely hanging on to a TV spot.

Let me guess, that Mega Powers parody angle should have taken those guys through Mania where they could explode?
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Old 10-16-2015, 05:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Were you watching when Sandow was featured week in and week out? He did exactly what you wanted. He had a nice little program based on comedy. It ran is course!

He's not talented enough to transition to a serious program where he can move up the card. The only thing he can do is comedy. That's cool, that means you are barely hanging on to a TV spot.

Let me guess, that Mega Powers parody angle should have taken those guys through Mania where they could explode?
Of course he's "not talented enough". Because that would mean you'd have to admit that WWE is just inept and suffers from ADD too much to keep a talented guy in an entertaining role on television. And we can't have that now, can we? So we'll just blame Damien Sandow for not being talented enough and we can stay in our "WWE WRITERS #1" bubble.
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Old 10-15-2015, 09:00 PM   #18
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The WWE doesn't set anyone up in the mid-card to have any sort of traction where they can step up. A guy is either a main eventer or they're nothing. Then when they've got no main eventers left, they try to pretend one of the nothing guys can suddenly do it and wonder why it doesn't get over.
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Old 10-16-2015, 10:07 AM   #19
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Quote:
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The WWE doesn't set anyone up in the mid-card to have any sort of traction where they can step up. A guy is either a main eventer or they're nothing. Then when they've got no main eventers left, they try to pretend one of the nothing guys can suddenly do it and wonder why it doesn't get over.
Wyatts vs Reigns was a long term program

Bellas vs Paige seemed to last a long time

Cena vs Owens was over several months
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Old 10-16-2015, 10:32 AM   #20
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I think there's a disconnect of what the mid card is

A standard WWE PPV looks like this:
1. World Title Match
2. Womens match
3. Tag match
4-8. Random matches (including IC and US titles)

If Cena isn't in the world title picture, you know he has a spot.

That leaves 3-4 matches for the rest of the guys. To me just being featured on a PPV means a lot. The 2nd match in could involve a guy like Randy Orton. Is he considered opening card? He could also easily be headlining against a guy like Rollins.

I understand the desire to see a real ladder system, but then what do you do when you reach the top but don't win the belt? You end up being like Orton or Sheamus or even Cena right now. You're somewhere in the middle of the card moving from program to program. So a ladder system doesn't always work.
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Old 10-15-2015, 09:06 PM   #21
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Sandow was so simple to book coming out of WrestleMania. He wants to fight Miz, but Miz is a chickenshit heel. Maybe Miz ducks out of their first scheduled match at Extreme Rules, because he's got "set commitments" and names Big Show as a replacement. This is stemming from Show winning the Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal against Sandow. You have Show toss around Sandow, but have Sandow show enough fight that people get behind him and think he *might* have a chance. Show wins the match after Miz sticks his neck in, and people now REALLY want to see Sandow get his hands on Miz.

Payback comes around and you have conflict established between two former Money in the Bank Winners who have tag history and personal issues. Miz acts like this thing is in the bag, but everyone is clamoring for Sandow to take it. The match sees Sandow get a large measure of personal retribution when he catches Miz in a full nelson, but instead of dropping him into the Skull-Crushing Finale, he brings back You're Welcome and gets the pin. He does a cartwheel after the match and everybody marks out.

You can then maybe have both guys in Money in the Bank and have them cancel each other out. Battleground could see one more match between the two where Sandow busts out a Figure Four and makes Miz tap out to "his own" hold.

You've now taken Sandow through to July, building up the fans' faith in him, his moveset and hopefully getting him more and more over. He might be selling a few t-shirts at this point. It is around here you can consider putting a mid-card championship on the guy. Maybe he holds that for a few weeks until The Miz costs him the title and they head towards a big blow-off in some sort of gimmick match down the stretch, which Sandow again wins, because he's the guy you're really trying to help get a footing.
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Old 10-16-2015, 10:05 AM   #22
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Sandow was so simple to book coming out of WrestleMania. He wants to fight Miz, but Miz is a chickenshit heel. Maybe Miz ducks out of their first scheduled match at Extreme Rules, because he's got "set commitments" and names Big Show as a replacement. This is stemming from Show winning the Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal against Sandow. You have Show toss around Sandow, but have Sandow show enough fight that people get behind him and think he *might* have a chance. Show wins the match after Miz sticks his neck in, and people now REALLY want to see Sandow get his hands on Miz.

Payback comes around and you have conflict established between two former Money in the Bank Winners who have tag history and personal issues. Miz acts like this thing is in the bag, but everyone is clamoring for Sandow to take it. The match sees Sandow get a large measure of personal retribution when he catches Miz in a full nelson, but instead of dropping him into the Skull-Crushing Finale, he brings back You're Welcome and gets the pin. He does a cartwheel after the match and everybody marks out.

You can then maybe have both guys in Money in the Bank and have them cancel each other out. Battleground could see one more match between the two where Sandow busts out a Figure Four and makes Miz tap out to "his own" hold.

You've now taken Sandow through to July, building up the fans' faith in him, his moveset and hopefully getting him more and more over. He might be selling a few t-shirts at this point. It is around here you can consider putting a mid-card championship on the guy. Maybe he holds that for a few weeks until The Miz costs him the title and they head towards a big blow-off in some sort of gimmick match down the stretch, which Sandow again wins, because he's the guy you're really trying to help get a footing.
You're booking is extremely unrealistic.

You just booked an program with opening card guys for like 4 months. But you failed to mention what they will do on all the TVs in between. They would have to fight about 20 times to keep that going. Maybe a best of 21 series??
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Old 10-16-2015, 09:59 AM   #23
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WWE needs to put out serious business rasslin with 30 minute matches and lots of technical rasslin moves and rest holds. That's what people want.
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Old 10-16-2015, 10:19 AM   #24
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That program was atrocious. Bryan had to be scared of a guy he was hugging less than a year before who rarely won, and Brie suddenly was hanging off of Bryan on TV playing the damsel in distress. Brie's acting = not good.

Let us see. Orton could've had a rematch, Batista could have had a shot, Wyatt could have stepped up after beating Bryan at the Rumble, HHH could've wanted a shot to redeem his Mania loss, even Cesaro (who just aligned with the guy who masterminded the ending of the Streak and was at his hottest) could've stepped up for a month.
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Old 10-16-2015, 10:43 AM   #25
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That program was atrocious. Bryan had to be scared of a guy he was hugging less than a year before who rarely won, and Brie suddenly was hanging off of Bryan on TV playing the damsel in distress. Brie's acting = not good.

Let us see. Orton could've had a rematch, Batista could have had a shot, Wyatt could have stepped up after beating Bryan at the Rumble, HHH could've wanted a shot to redeem his Mania loss, even Cesaro (who just aligned with the guy who masterminded the ending of the Streak and was at his hottest) could've stepped up for a month.
HHH, Orton and Batista were busy trying to elevate The Shield.

Cesaro would have been a cold contender. Wouldn't have helped anything.

Bryan was crazy over at that point, he was fine with Kane. As for Brie, I'm sure he was pro giving his gf more TV time. It's not WWEs fault she's a terrible actress.
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Old 10-16-2015, 12:15 PM   #26
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Old 10-16-2015, 12:18 PM   #27
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So does everyone here.
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Old 10-16-2015, 05:09 PM   #28
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Old 10-16-2015, 05:55 PM   #29
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I remember Hunter stating in a interview that Sandow was indeed talented, but needed something to click. Then the change from Idol Stevens to the Intellectual Savior of the Masses was born, and Hunter mentioned how it was something they could run with that Sandow was clearly good with. He got heat, he got over, and he was good enough to be elevated. Instead, they killed the MITB push, jobbed him out, and only when they squandered any heat he had left did they put him in a comedy role.

Feel like CyNick purposely glosses over periods of time where there was legit opportunity for WWE and co to make a valuable upper mid card talent that was squashed for no reason whatsoever.
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Old 10-17-2015, 01:48 PM   #30
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I remember Hunter stating in a interview that Sandow was indeed talented, but needed something to click. Then the change from Idol Stevens to the Intellectual Savior of the Masses was born, and Hunter mentioned how it was something they could run with that Sandow was clearly good with. He got heat, he got over, and he was good enough to be elevated. Instead, they killed the MITB push, jobbed him out, and only when they squandered any heat he had left did they put him in a comedy role.

Feel like CyNick purposely glosses over periods of time where there was legit opportunity for WWE and co to make a valuable upper mid card talent that was squashed for no reason whatsoever.
I liked Sandows promos when he was doing the Intellectual thing, but in the ring I thought he was the shits. His body is soft, which shows a lack of commitment to his craft, and he never learned how to keep a crowd in a match.

The comedy thing where he was doing the stunt guy gimmick kept him on TV, but you can only go so far with him. I remember watching his matches closely after he turned on Miz, and he still had the same issues in the ring. He couldnt put it all together.

I think some people on here look at a guy who does one thing well (either something in the ring, or a catchphrase that gets over, etc) and they assume they can put everything together to move up the card. Some guys just cant do it. Sandow is one of those guys.

Whereas a guy like say Kevin Owens seems to have all the tools. His issue is he thinks he can eat cheesburgers all day every day and be positioned as a main eventer. He would be better off showing commitment in all aspects of the business.
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Old 10-17-2015, 02:06 PM   #31
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Whereas a guy like say Kevin Owens seems to have all the tools. His issue is he thinks he can eat cheesburgers all day every day and be positioned as a main eventer. He would be better off showing commitment in all aspects of the business.
Have you seen him eating cheeseburgers all day or are you just basing that on his weight? The dudes in shape, he shows that in the ring. Some guys are just built different and won't have a ripped body but it doesn't mean he eats cheese burgers all day.
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Old 10-19-2015, 02:24 PM   #32
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Have you seen him eating cheeseburgers all day or are you just basing that on his weight? The dudes in shape, he shows that in the ring. Some guys are just built different and won't have a ripped body but it doesn't mean he eats cheese burgers all day.
I was just using that as a clever comment. No offense meant to Owens

I agree not everyone needs to be chiseled, but there are limits to being the chubby guy who can work.
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Old 10-16-2015, 05:58 PM   #33
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And not everyone gets loves WWE. Quite a number of us watch or keep eyes on the product via habit, as its been a staple in our lives since we were children. I openly complain about the product and I far from love it. I more or less tolerate it, but even the I find myself tuning out of the hulu episodes they edit because even at half the length, the show is not interesting enough to hold my attention.
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Old 10-17-2015, 01:51 PM   #34
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And not everyone gets loves WWE. Quite a number of us watch or keep eyes on the product via habit, as its been a staple in our lives since we were children. I openly complain about the product and I far from love it. I more or less tolerate it, but even the I find myself tuning out of the hulu episodes they edit because even at half the length, the show is not interesting enough to hold my attention.
Polkadot Door was a staple of my life. I gave it up when it stopped appealing to me. I liked House of Cards, then it got shit. Im not planning to match next season.

Some of you guys are either masochists, self loathing sports entertainment fans, or complainers for the sake of complaining.
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Old 10-16-2015, 11:04 PM   #35
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I remember immediately after Sandow won MITB, he went on some ridiculous losing streak. He even lost to R-Truth a couple weeks after winning it on Superstars I think. lol

Seriously would love to hear the thought process behind giving a guy a major title/accomplishment to build off of and then immediately going out of your way to job them out left and right.
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Old 10-17-2015, 01:54 PM   #36
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I remember immediately after Sandow won MITB, he went on some ridiculous losing streak. He even lost to R-Truth a couple weeks after winning it on Superstars I think. lol

Seriously would love to hear the thought process behind giving a guy a major title/accomplishment to build off of and then immediately going out of your way to job them out left and right.
Simple.

MITB is generally won by heels. Its the ultimate chicken shit way to win the title. For most guys who win the briefcase, they are going to eventually win the title. By having guys beat them, it creates future challengers down the line.
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Old 10-17-2015, 09:54 PM   #37
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Simple.

MITB is generally won by heels. Its the ultimate chicken shit way to win the title. For most guys who win the briefcase, they are going to eventually win the title. By having guys beat them, it creates future challengers down the line.
Yeah, Santino and R-Truth beat Damien Sandow so that it could lead to a world title match months later. Makes sense.
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Old 10-19-2015, 02:28 PM   #38
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Yeah, Santino and R-Truth beat Damien Sandow so that it could lead to a world title match months later. Makes sense.
I honestly don't remember the entire timeline. You casual watchers of the product seem to have a better handle on the order of events.

I just know I never thought Sandow was anything more than a funny guy. I never saw him have a great match.
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Old 10-16-2015, 11:09 PM   #39
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Wasn't that a running gag for a while? MITB winners suddenly going on losing steaks?
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Old 10-16-2015, 11:17 PM   #40
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It's a running gag for most champions over recent years. It just so happens the MITB case doesn't get defended so there's no title matches that they need to have them win here and there just to keep it on them. They could just job them out endlessly.
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