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Old 06-12-2019, 02:08 PM   #1
The MAC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
Wrestlers having to use their finisher to end the match, hitting it multiple times in the main event or ppv. I’m good with finishers but don’t do it every match, make it more special by not using it all the time. How many times did Bret Hart win with a roll up and win by the skin of his teeth? Didn’t have to hit the sharpshooter every match, but when he dot it on nobody got out.
I feel like Daniel Bryan is the only guy winning without always hitting the finisher.

Because he's Bret Hart. He paints wrestling psychology with water colours...everyone else just doodles in crayon.
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Old 06-06-2019, 01:53 PM   #2
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I hate the psychology of finishers. More over the finishers lack psychology altogether.


dont get me wrong though. the concept is over so yeah get your shit in but its so stupid.
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Old 06-06-2019, 02:58 PM   #3
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Remember Cody Mckenzie the MMA fighter? He had a finisher.

His MMA record at one point was just a string of like 13 guillotine choke wins. Then he started to lose because at a certain level nobody is letting you take their neck that easy.
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Old 06-06-2019, 03:40 PM   #4
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The thing about finishers is that they only work if you expect it to actually finish the match. And nowadays, in big matches it's commonplace to expect kickouts. Therefore ruining most false finishes because you don't bite on them the way you're supposed to.

The only finisher that's insanely protected nowadays is the One Winged Angel. I believe Ibushi kicked out of it once, and Okada once got his foot up on the ropes.
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Old 06-06-2019, 04:55 PM   #5
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School Boy being a one-hit kill in 24/7 Championship matches.
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Old 06-06-2019, 07:50 PM   #6
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In 4 person per team survivor series matches more often than not once a finisher gets hit and the opponent pinned none of his Team Mates try to break up the pin, when this is commonplace in regular tag matches. There's no "rule" against it so doesn't make much sense why they just stand there gawking.

(yes i know in 4 person team matches that people running in to break up the pin could lead to a never ending match, but they don't even attempt to explain why the team mates don't help)
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Old 06-07-2019, 01:44 PM   #7
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Seems like every battle royal nowadays has to have someone sliding under the bottom rope hopping back in at the end after everyone forgot about them. It's so overdone.
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Old 06-12-2019, 12:13 PM   #8
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Forgetting that you were in a blood feud with your new best friend just 3 months ago.



Height = strength
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:16 PM   #9
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Ah, so this is why you hate Goldberg
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
Ah, so this is why you hate Goldberg
Hate is a very strong word. You would have thought that he learned to work enough not to injure people ,or himself. Motherfucker is bleeding before he left the locker room.


Goldberg made millions by other guys making him look good...the least he could have done was learned not to hurt them .
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The MAC View Post
Hate is a very strong word. You would have thought that he learned to work enough not to injure people ,or himself. Motherfucker is bleeding before he left the locker room.


Goldberg made millions by other guys making him look good...the least he could have done was learned not to hurt them .
D-Lo brown paralyzed a guy.

Owen Hart almost ended and contributed to a shortened career for the greatest star of his generation.

Ricky Steamboat ended his career by taking a bump wrong on the turnbuckle.

Seth Rollins has broken Cena's nose, took Balor out for months and killed off Sting.

Undertaker almost killed Aiden English on a tombstone.

Bret Hart likes Goldberg and said it's a shame that such a thing is tied to such a nice guy. Maybe you're being a little dramatic.
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Old 06-13-2019, 07:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post

Owen Hart almost ended and contributed to a shortened career for the greatest star of his generation.

.
I've discussed with Gerty about how Owen doing that ridiculous tombstone has to be one of the most boneheaded decisions ever in a match.
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Old 06-13-2019, 09:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dastardly One View Post
I've discussed with Gerty about how Owen doing that ridiculous tombstone has to be one of the most boneheaded decisions ever in a match.
It made no sense and I'm fairly certain it's come out that when the spot was agreed to, it was agreed as Taker's version as opposed to a sit out tombstone.

Fucking insane and he doesn't seem to catch a ton of flak for it.
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:26 PM   #14
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How the sleeperhold leads into hope spot/cut off every fucking time.
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:27 PM   #15
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better than it being a finish
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:44 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dastardly One View Post
How the sleeperhold leads into hope spot/cut off every fucking time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
better than it being a finish
Debatable. Just like with using another person's finish, when was the last time a sleeper was used to legit end the match? And I don't mean specialty clutches that specific submission wrestler x uses, I just mean random sleepers from random other people.

I say put them to sleep and let the hand drop three times every so often. Nobody would see that coming. Again, just don't do it ALL the time after and kill the charm.
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:49 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Guycott View Post
Debatable. Just like with using another person's finish, when was the last time a sleeper was used to legit end the match? And I don't mean specialty clutches that specific submission wrestler x uses, I just mean random sleepers from random other people.

I say put them to sleep and let the hand drop three times every so often. Nobody would see that coming. Again, just don't do it ALL the time after and kill the charm.
No one woukd poo for that. Too dull.
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:11 AM   #18
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Quote:
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No one woukd poo for that. Too dull.
I would hope not. When I hear about fans shitting on the finish that's not what I had in mind.
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:43 PM   #19
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But maybe just have it be the full comeback once in a while instead of the cutoff. Just to keep us goons guessing.
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:43 PM   #20
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THAT'S ALL I ASK
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Old 06-13-2019, 02:18 AM   #21
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Has no one mentioned “challenger beats champion in a non-title situation. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR SUNDAY!?!”

It might be the one that irks me most. It’s always been used to some extent and it was effective until the past 20 years or so where it has to happen in EVERY. SINGLE. TITLE. FEUD.
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:14 AM   #22
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Quote:
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Has no one mentioned “challenger beats champion in a non-title situation. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR SUNDAY!?!”

It might be the one that irks me most. It’s always been used to some extent and it was effective until the past 20 years or so where it has to happen in EVERY. SINGLE. TITLE. FEUD.
Lump in beating the champ in non title match as a way to then earn a title shot against said champ.
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:46 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Has no one mentioned “challenger beats champion in a non-title situation. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR SUNDAY!?!”

It might be the one that irks me most. It’s always been used to some extent and it was effective until the past 20 years or so where it has to happen in EVERY. SINGLE. TITLE. FEUD.
Moreso with the "ONE!!! TWO!!! WEHAVANEWCHAMPI- OHHHHHH, SO CLOSE!!!"

Every near fall. Every championship match. Every current announce team.
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:03 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Guycott View Post
Moreso with the "ONE!!! TWO!!! WEHAVANEWCHAMPI- OHHHHHH, SO CLOSE!!!"

Every near fall. Every championship match. Every current announce team.
Lol Vince was the worst at that on commentary.
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:34 AM   #25
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Lol Vince was the worst at that on commentary.
"ONE! TWO! AND....oh no, I thought he had him."
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:40 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Lol Vince was the worst at that on commentary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
"ONE! TWO! AND....oh no, I thought he had him."
But it has gone so far beyond just Vince. It isn't even strictly a WWE thing anymore. Watch Ring of Honor. Watch iMPACT. MLW... it's everywhere. Everyone does it. I get they're supposed to be conveying excitement, but it has gotten beyond cancerous.

This is pandemic.

I don't understand Japanese to confirm, but I'm almost willing to bet NJPW does it too. It's bothersome, but nobody doing it understands how bothersome it is because it's just a thing that's done.
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:41 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
"ONE! TWO! AND....oh no, I thought he had him."
Lol It was usually much worse. He’d often spend the two count confirming the victory, praising the loser’s valiant effort and drawing up the contract for the new champion’s first title defence before a quiet “...no.”
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:00 AM   #28
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Laaaaaazy booking
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:06 AM   #29
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Using a title to get someone over, instead of a wrestler getting a title over.

Wait, that's not a wrestling cliche. Just a WWE cliche.
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Old 06-13-2019, 10:44 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
Using a title to get someone over, instead of a wrestler getting a title over.

Wait, that's not a wrestling cliche. Just a WWE cliche.
Theres a time and place for both. I dont think either approach is inherently flawed
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Old 06-13-2019, 02:45 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Destor View Post
Theres a time and place for both. I dont think either approach is inherently flawed
Maybe so, but I think the former is more of a slippery slope.

Brian Alvarez commented on the backlash to Charlotte beating Asuka for the belt by saying it's just a prop and it doesn't matter. I think I immediately lost some respect for him with those comments.

Yes, from a very literal standpoint the belt is a prop. The audience knows this. But like everything in wrestling, the fans want to be made to forget that, through great storytelling. However, if you're too transparent about using a plot device to further the story, it takes people out of the tale you're trying to tell. This is true of any story telling medium.

Yes people were upset that Asuka's (poorly booked outside of her win against Becky) reign ended to further the other title's feud, but they were also upset because they chose to use a prop at the last minute to artificially enhance the feud in lieu of just telling a good story. I don't know how Brian couldn't see that.

Further more, it does matter how you book the belt. I know for a fact it does. Because when Omega finally beat Okada for the title, I felt something I hadn't felt since Benoit won the title at WM 20 and celebrated in the ring with Eddie. Conversely, when Bray Wyatt, my favorite worker in WWE at the time won the WWE title, I didn't care. Because they had done everything in their power to get me to not care about him over the years, and now they were using the title to try and sell me on him.

One company used the title to enhance the story they were telling. The other used the belt to tell the story, and everyone saw right through it.

It's funny because every time you're too blatant about using a belt to get a person or storyline over, people lose a little respect for that title, in turn having the oppisite effect of the desired outcome. And that's why no one gives a shit about WWE titles. Because they do this shit all the time.
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:36 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
Maybe so, but I think the former is more of a slippery slope.

Brian Alvarez commented on the backlash to Charlotte beating Asuka for the belt by saying it's just a prop and it doesn't matter. I think I immediately lost some respect for him with those comments.

Yes, from a very literal standpoint the belt is a prop. The audience knows this. But like everything in wrestling, the fans want to be made to forget that, through great storytelling. However, if you're too transparent about using a plot device to further the story, it takes people out of the tale you're trying to tell. This is true of any story telling medium.

Yes people were upset that Asuka's (poorly booked outside of her win against Becky) reign ended to further the other title's feud, but they were also upset because they chose to use a prop at the last minute to artificially enhance the feud in lieu of just telling a good story. I don't know how Brian couldn't see that.

Further more, it does matter how you book the belt. I know for a fact it does. Because when Omega finally beat Okada for the title, I felt something I hadn't felt since Benoit won the title at WM 20 and celebrated in the ring with Eddie. Conversely, when Bray Wyatt, my favorite worker in WWE at the time won the WWE title, I didn't care. Because they had done everything in their power to get me to not care about him over the years, and now they were using the title to try and sell me on him.

One company used the title to enhance the story they were telling. The other used the belt to tell the story, and everyone saw right through it.

It's funny because every time you're too blatant about using a belt to get a person or storyline over, people lose a little respect for that title, in turn having the oppisite effect of the desired outcome. And that's why no one gives a shit about WWE titles. Because they do this shit all the time.
Firstly, on the first point, you bash Alvarez for saying exactly what you go on to say in the next paragraph. Hm.

Secondly, the "just a prop" comment was exactly the same as me coming on here and calling it the "everyone gets a turn" belt. Same as me referring to the Cruiserweight Championship as the "this is all you are/this is all Vince thinks you are" belt. They ruined their own prestige with it, and by treating women's belts as props and trash so long, that it means next to nothing. And in their quest to try to bring prestige to said prop, they ironically go about it by making it look like more of a prop.

WWE has had a continued problem with making multiple titles seem legit at the same time. They can only focus on like two... maybe three at a time. Then, they'll shift focus to another set, and any work they may have possibly done to salvage some shine on whatever championship starts to slip down the shit slide of whogivesafuck because it becomes obvious it suddenly isn't as important anymore as thing other thing going on over there.

I am one who defends the brand split and having dual world champions. The problem with it isn't that having two champs is inherently stupid, it is that they don't even execute their own damn idea properly. Two shows with two independent rosters and sets of storylines and feuds. Instead, what you end up with is a lot of either copypasta (most blatantly with Riott Squad/Absolution debuts) or "oh shit, this person is a star, how can we work them onto BOTH shows?!?"

Both champions are supposed to be the top of their respective shows... but then you'll get shit like one guy wrestling every week, and the other guy making two appearances every Big Four PPV cycle.... both of which have their own pluses and minuses that deserve their own rant, but then they decide neither is a focus anymore because hey remember we have Tag Teams? Well, forget about that after this month, because it's all about the very historic Intercontenental... nah, nevermind, because we're going to put the United States Championship on our next big superstar and make BOTH SHOWS all about... THE WOMEN, so let's have all three women's championships matter right now... until we have this World Heavyweight match! Which belt though? Doesn't matter, because we're going to let the other go to shit while we put this one on our guy... wait, the other champion is more over now? Well fuck this guy then!

And on and on it goes.

I know and care who all the champs are in NXT. None of them are overexposed. None of them get any less true focus or come at the expense of the other champs. Hell, there's even occasional crossover with NXT UK- a "special" thing. All of their champions feel like champions, and are holding a symbol of prestige.

Most of the main roster are booked like mooks and holding on to a prop for a little bit until the winds change. And though the argument can be made- one I disagree with- that there are too many main roster championships, the bigger problem is that they're mostly treated like shit and with such indignity that even if they re-combined rosters and folded the championships into a way smaller number, they would still likely have the same issue of trash booking with a laser focus on one solitary championsip for any sustained amount of time contested for by bodies who have just been there for a few months and the company prob'ly forgot they had until Royal Rumble or Survivor Series where they need numbers.

They could make every belt they have - even the ridiculous 24/7 that's solely intended for comedy spots - look like they're worth having if they took the effort to. They just won't take the effort to.
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Old 06-14-2019, 06:18 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Guycott View Post
Firstly, on the first point, you bash Alvarez for saying exactly what you go on to say in the next paragraph. Hm.
I didn't bash him for calling it a prop. I bashed him for not understanding why so many people were upset with the title change.
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Old 06-13-2019, 01:18 PM   #34
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The "struggle" to get up a ladder in a ladder match and then act like there's not at least two more rungs to climb and instead reaching for the title when you are nowhere near it.

Another one hi into the whole "what's going to happen this Sunday" thing when somebody wins/ gets the upper hand on their opponent the week of a pay-per-view very rarely do they win at the pay-per-view so it's predictable depending on how a show goes off the air what's going to happen.
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Old 06-17-2019, 12:17 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by KIRA View Post
The "struggle" to get up a ladder in a ladder match and then act like there's not at least two more rungs to climb and instead reaching for the title when you are nowhere near it.

Yeah ladder matches always look hokey as fuck because of this, it's ok if you see it the odd time but you see it practically every time someone climbs the ladder from about the mid stage of the match onwards. Suppose it's no different from most "gimmick" matches as they get very formularic for the most part.
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Old 06-13-2019, 02:43 PM   #36
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Wrestling shows that begin with someone, usually akin to the owner talking for about 20 minutes
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:27 PM   #37
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D'Lo didn't paralyse Droz.

Droz paralysed Droz.
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Old 06-13-2019, 07:27 PM   #38
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How a man who was unanimously considered both a brilliant wrestler and a brilliant human being could somehow neglect to apologise or even face up to breaking a man's neck with a move he had already been asked not to use is beyond me.
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Old 06-13-2019, 07:42 PM   #39
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How a man who was unanimously considered both a brilliant wrestler and a brilliant human being could somehow neglect to apologise or even face up to breaking a man's neck with a move he had already been asked not to use is beyond me.
the failing to apologize I'm guessing came down to Owen feeling guilty and kind of pussing out because he couldn't face Austin. That doesn't make the decision to do that piledriver any less idiotic, though. Especially considering Steve already had neck problems.
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Old 06-13-2019, 07:35 PM   #40
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Owen did a variety of piledrivers too... you can see him use a standard, a tombstone and that weird inverted piledriver/sitting tombstone in different matches. I think the one that got Austin was an on-the-spot improvisation though because I can't remember seeing that one before then.

If you want to see a pile driver that's safer than a body slam just watch Ric Flair take one. It's a slow handstand on the giver's feet and then he just lies down whenever Terry Funk or whoever it was was ready.
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