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Old 11-08-2021, 10:23 AM   #1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drave View Post
So direct your post at Nerfect? I didn't say anything related to your post.


It was painfully obvious he was never going to cut it on the main roster anyway.
Nerfect and I are not on talking terms anymore
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Old 11-08-2021, 10:24 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darlene View Post
Nerfect and I are not on talking terms anymore

Then stop invoking his name, especially when it's not even related.
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Old 11-08-2021, 10:56 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drave View Post
Then stop invoking his name, especially when it's not even related.
She's a drama queen
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Old 11-08-2021, 11:47 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Lord Gertner of TPWW View Post
She's a drama queen
Thanks for acknowledging me, King
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Old 11-08-2021, 10:01 AM   #5
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whats a fair shot and why are people entitled to it
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Old 11-08-2021, 12:12 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
whats a fair shot and why are people entitled to it
They're not.

I think the better argument is that when someone does start to gain momentum, WWE has a habit of cutting their legs out from under them for no apparent reason.
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Old 11-08-2021, 12:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
They're not.

I think the better argument is that when someone does start to gain momentum, WWE has a habit of cutting their legs out from under them for no apparent reason.
Agreed. Simply turrible.
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Old 11-09-2021, 01:56 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
whats a fair shot and why are people entitled to it
Sounds like the title of another book written by Whitey McSportsfan.
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Old 11-09-2021, 02:32 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Guycott View Post
Sounds like the title of another book written by Whitey McSportsfan.
Awful comparison.
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Old 11-08-2021, 10:46 AM   #10
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What do you think the outcome would be if one of these dudes just turned up on AEW, no compete be damned?

WWE takes them to court for breaking contract. People start taking a look at the whole “independent contractor” deal? Is that a can of worms WWE want to open?
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Old 11-08-2021, 10:49 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XL View Post
What do you think the outcome would be if one of these dudes just turned up on AEW, no compete be damned?

WWE takes them to court for breaking contract. People start taking a look at the whole “independent contractor” deal? Is that a can of worms WWE want to open?
Part of me thinks it depends who it is. If it's a midcard guy? Maybe WWE won't bother. But if a bigger name gets cut on Monday and shows up on Dynamite Wednesday? That'd probably be an issue.

(This could all be bullshit and WWE could go after anyone who does that. But I feel like they "couldn't care less" if like, Lince Dorado popped up on Dynamite or Rampage in the next few days.)
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Old 11-08-2021, 11:19 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XL View Post
What do you think the outcome would be if one of these dudes just turned up on AEW, no compete be damned?

WWE takes them to court for breaking contract. People start taking a look at the whole “independent contractor” deal? Is that a can of worms WWE want to open?
The wrestler would go broke from the legal process and that's why they are fearful to challenge it.
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Old 11-08-2021, 03:26 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XL View Post
What do you think the outcome would be if one of these dudes just turned up on AEW, no compete be damned?

WWE takes them to court for breaking contract. People start taking a look at the whole “independent contractor” deal? Is that a can of worms WWE want to open?
I think the issue is WWE is still paying them during those 90 days. That is why they keep their WWE Twitter handles until that 90 days are up. Logically I would rather keep getting paid and not have to pay legal fees.

That said, Brock Lesnar already won a court case over WWE's non compete clause, but he even said it cost him a lot of money. In his case, so what because he could make 10 times more in New Japan and UFC than his legal fees, but nobody else has that unique earning power to command $10-$15 million a year.
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Old 11-08-2021, 11:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrodmuc316 View Post
I think the issue is WWE is still paying them during those 90 days. That is why they keep their WWE Twitter handles until that 90 days are up. Logically I would rather keep getting paid and not have to pay legal fees.

That said, Brock Lesnar already won a court case over WWE's non compete clause, but he even said it cost him a lot of money. In his case, so what because he could make 10 times more in New Japan and UFC than his legal fees, but nobody else has that unique earning power to command $10-$15 million a year.
Hey, this brings up a question and forgive me for my ignorance but are the talent required to have a Twitter account/handle while being a contracted talent? Because, you know, ew.
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Old 11-09-2021, 01:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-A-G View Post
Hey, this brings up a question and forgive me for my ignorance but are the talent required to have a Twitter account/handle while being a contracted talent? Because, you know, ew.
I don't think they "have to" have to, but I think it is strongly encouraged. Clearly some guys have way more freedom to post what they want than others.
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Old 11-09-2021, 03:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrodmuc316 View Post
I don't think they "have to" have to, but I think it is strongly encouraged. Clearly some guys have way more freedom to post what they want than others.
I think I'd rather work in 2000-era WCW than be pressured into using Twitter.
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Old 11-08-2021, 12:29 PM   #17
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its a terrible habit of theirs. horrible booking and they do it all the time.
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Old 11-08-2021, 11:43 PM   #18
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Keith Lee and Karrion Kross got shitty gimmicks on the main roster? Yes, they did. But guess what? I know of one guy who had shittier gimmicks than both of them. I am talking about an Ex-Rugby Player. I am talking about his only personality quality was that he spoke 5 languages. I am talking about whatever the fuck that yodeling thing was.

And guess what? Cesaro's still around. He'll likely never be WWE Champion. He isn't the poster child of charisma. All of that said, he seems like one of the most universally liked guys in WWE, and he's versatile enough that he can be plugged into almost any spot and it works. Main Eventer needs some down time? Put him in a tag team with Cesaro. Heel needs to get his heat back? Put him in there with Cesaro. And Creative always seems to have something for him (apart from recently, but he did have a rather talked about bout with Walter recently). And he never seems to be on the list of people who might get cut. Talent plays a fairly big role, but I think attitude plays a bigger one.
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Old 11-08-2021, 11:57 PM   #19
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Cesaro is a good hand. he gets the people he works with over.
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Old 11-09-2021, 12:31 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
Cesaro is a good hand. he gets the people he works with over.
There's always a place in the wrestling business for a good hand. He'll almost certainly be a trainer in the Performance Center after his WWE run is over.

I would argue that Big E is another example of attitude keeping someone around. He was just kind of there from his debut. They gave him the one big babyface run that fizzled. He was kind of just being used as a very buff jobber. He could have very easily been cut after he lost the IC title, but everyone seems to like him, as well. And he got another chance from there became part of one of the biggest draws in the WWE.

I am ultimately saying that having a good attitude in WWE can give you chances that having all the talent in the world won't.
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Old 11-09-2021, 02:08 AM   #21
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There's always a place in the wrestling business for a good hand. He'll almost certainly be a trainer in the Performance Center after his WWE run is over.

I would argue that Big E is another example of attitude keeping someone around. He was just kind of there from his debut. They gave him the one big babyface run that fizzled. He was kind of just being used as a very buff jobber. He could have very easily been cut after he lost the IC title, but everyone seems to like him, as well. And he got another chance from there became part of one of the biggest draws in the WWE.

I am ultimately saying that having a good attitude in WWE can give you chances that having all the talent in the world won't.
Even with that, though, it wasn't from lack of trying to fuck him up.

He was another one who was over in NXT even in that short stay. But they totally dropped the 5 count gimmick on the main roster presumably because they didn't want to educate fans on who the fuck King Kong Bundy was (much like never mentioning the goddamn Freebird Rule except in the ingredients list of the New Day t-shirt cereal box). They just made him mute and stuck him with Ziggles for zero reason, stripping out what was already working.

Then, even later, there was the point in time at the beginning of New Day where all three of them were on the chopping block because the bullshit forced babyface thing wasn't working, and they had to beg Vince to turn heel, which was exactly what they needed to start down the road to where they are now.

Even with someone like Big E, and him being an okay dude, it seems really hard for the company to get out of their own goddamn way.
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Old 11-09-2021, 02:41 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Guycott View Post
Even with that, though, it wasn't from lack of trying to fuck him up.

He was another one who was over in NXT even in that short stay. But they totally dropped the 5 count gimmick on the main roster presumably because they didn't want to educate fans on who the fuck King Kong Bundy was (much like never mentioning the goddamn Freebird Rule except in the ingredients list of the New Day t-shirt cereal box). They just made him mute and stuck him with Ziggles for zero reason, stripping out what was already working.

Then, even later, there was the point in time at the beginning of New Day where all three of them were on the chopping block because the bullshit forced babyface thing wasn't working, and they had to beg Vince to turn heel, which was exactly what they needed to start down the road to where they are now.

Even with someone like Big E, and him being an okay dude, it seems really hard for the company to get out of their own goddamn way.
No one should expect that anything that works at NXT and their small, niche crowd will translate to working on the bigger, mainstream audience. Things that worked in NXT: Adam Rose and Emma's bad dancer gimmick.

They dropped the 5 count gimmick because they didn't need an awkward guy ripping off King Kong Bundy at the time. They need a guy to be muscle for Dolph Ziggler. And he was a massive dude who could fill that role.

As for your last point, this sounds like bitching because they gave Steve Austin "The Ringmaster" gimmick off the bat and he suggested tweaks to make it work. This is the thing about attitude I'm talking about: They could have very easily just bitched about the shitty hand they were dealt and they'd have been released. Instead, they believed in themselves and what they were doing, saw what wasn't working, and suggested tweaks to make it work.

That's not a failure on Creative's end. That is what separates the folks who are forgotten about from the biggest stars in wrestling. These folks would rather piss and moan than fight and prove that they want this shit. Sometimes that means suggesting changes. Sometimes, that means learning how to fucking yodel.
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Old 11-10-2021, 01:37 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Vastardikai View Post
No one should expect that anything that works at NXT and their small, niche crowd will translate to working on the bigger, mainstream audience. Things that worked in NXT: Adam Rose and Emma's bad dancer gimmick.

They dropped the 5 count gimmick because they didn't need an awkward guy ripping off King Kong Bundy at the time. They need a guy to be muscle for Dolph Ziggler. And he was a massive dude who could fill that role.
However, there's a difference between things not translating and not even fucking trying. If you recall, Adam Rose was a Vince call... he was over in NXT doing the Leo Kreuger shell-shocked crazy man shtick. He was another one of those "let's change fucking everything" guys. And apparently, Vince got bored with his own creation, much like he did back in the day with Drew McIntyre. Remember, Drew came in with PERSONAL promo hype from Vince himself and won the IC title in pretty short order, then that was done relatively quickly.

Meanwhile, while still in NXT, Baron Corbin got LESS OVER with time, because once they tried to move him beyond the timed squash matches, he got really exposed at being the shits. Even with the active disdain, they called him up as-is, and then the whole world got to see how shit he was.

Divorcing how anyone may feel about the guys, EVERYTHING about Enzo and Cass was hitting and they didn't need to change a goddamn thing from the "niche" NXT crowd. Roman Reigns' pre-Shield repackaging was essentially the prototype of what he is right now, but he was nowhere near ready for it. Bray Wyatt: cult leader extrordanare worked fine. Kevin Steen and Samoa Joe were basically the same things they've always been.

Imagine if they gave every call-up a fair shake like that instead of instantly trying to make random folks change shit immediately.

So back to Big E being Dolph's heater. They could have chose plenty of folks already on the main roster for that. They could have picked a call up from NXT who didn't have anything to them yet. Instead they took a guy who was at least over there, and didn't even try with him doing his own thing.

Its almost a coin flip if they're going to either leave someone alone, or try to fuck with them without even trying what was working for them. Using your Steve Austin comparison, it would be like he was full on beer drinking, middle finger, stunner, DTA "Rattlesnake" in NXT, and THEN for the main roster call up, they put The Ringmaster gimmick on him without even trying what was already working... and then when that went ass up, it's somehow because Steve wasn't trying.
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Old 11-10-2021, 01:39 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Vastardikai View Post
No one should expect that anything that works at NXT and their small, niche crowd will translate to working on the bigger, mainstream audience. Things that worked in NXT: Adam Rose and Emma's bad dancer gimmick.

They dropped the 5 count gimmick because they didn't need an awkward guy ripping off King Kong Bundy at the time. They need a guy to be muscle for Dolph Ziggler. And he was a massive dude who could fill that role.

As for your last point, this sounds like bitching because they gave Steve Austin "The Ringmaster" gimmick off the bat and he suggested tweaks to make it work. This is the thing about attitude I'm talking about: They could have very easily just bitched about the shitty hand they were dealt and they'd have been released. Instead, they believed in themselves and what they were doing, saw what wasn't working, and suggested tweaks to make it work.

That's not a failure on Creative's end. That is what separates the folks who are forgotten about from the biggest stars in wrestling. These folks would rather piss and moan than fight and prove that they want this shit. Sometimes that means suggesting changes. Sometimes, that means learning how to fucking yodel.
Early era NXT, yes that stupid stuff didn't translate. But starting with when K.O. and Balor came in, which was when Takeovers started drawing big, there were countless guys who didn't have to change anything and were over on the main roster. Then after so many botches, it became much harder to be invested the same way.

I am not sure if the exact dates, but for me personally I feel like the confidence was gone after they botched Bobby Roode. There were a few more callups after him where it was less excitement for what could be and more curiosity of how much they would screw it up.

After Ricochet and Black, that was when it seemed like it shifted to where nobody wanted to get called up because even they knew it would turn out bad.
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Old 11-09-2021, 02:40 AM   #25
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Old 11-09-2021, 02:54 AM   #26
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Old 11-09-2021, 03:12 AM   #27
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I don't even have to think about that. I'll take a finger poke of doom from David Arquette.
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Old 11-09-2021, 04:34 AM   #28
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With guys like Cesaro, it’s not only about attitude and talent, but it’s also about how you fit into things. I half-way expect a guy like Shelton Benjamin to be cut, but that he constantly escapes isn’t too surprising either. There are backstage factors, how you help younger guys, and just being the right guy in the right spot for the right reasons.

Some guys get cut because the only use for them would be, hypothetically, the main event. But when the company decides they don’t want to use you there, there’s nothing for you.
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Old 11-09-2021, 05:58 AM   #29
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I’m not entirely sure there’s more than maybe 5 acts on the roster that you’d miss if they were cut. Maybe that’s the benefit of “pushing the brand over the talent”?

You could go through the roster 3 times over and cut people that wouldn’t be missed; Jaxson Ryker, Elias, Corbin, Ziggler off the top of my head. Would you really miss Owens if he doesn’t re-up? Rollins? New Day? Crews? Cesaro? Nakamura? There’s are guys in there that I like but I’m not sure I’d miss them. I think that’s what sits awkwardly with a release like Keith Lee; they barely tried and there’s guys still there that they have tried everything with to little pay off. They seem like they wanted to make something of Ryker, it was never going to happen, it didn’t, and now he’s nowhere to be seen. The deal with B-Fab really sucks too. Imagine signing a new contract with more money - a number the company decided days before - then being told you’re being cut due to budget cuts. What happened in 3 days? If they don’t think they needed her with Hit Row why go through all that? Can you imagine the high of “I’m on the main roster” to “I don’t have a job”?
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Old 11-09-2021, 06:09 AM   #30
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I’m not entirely sure there’s more than maybe 5 acts on the roster that you’d miss if they were cut. Maybe that’s the benefit of “pushing the brand over the talent”?

You could go through the roster 3 times over and cut people that wouldn’t be missed; Jaxson Ryker, Elias, Corbin, Ziggler off the top of my head. Would you really miss Owens if he doesn’t re-up? Rollins? New Day? Crews? Cesaro? Nakamura? There’s are guys in there that I like but I’m not sure I’d miss them. I think that’s what sits awkwardly with a release like Keith Lee; they barely tried and there’s guys still there that they have tried everything with to little pay off. They seem like they wanted to make something of Ryker, it was never going to happen, it didn’t, and now he’s nowhere to be seen. The deal with B-Fab really sucks too. Imagine signing a new contract with more money - a number the company decided days before - then being told you’re being cut due to budget cuts. What happened in 3 days? If they don’t think they needed her with Hit Row why go through all that? Can you imagine the high of “I’m on the main roster” to “I don’t have a job”?
Wrestling needs very few people. Honestly, the same can be said for almost any promotion in the world. But it is true in the WWE. But I’m not sure it’s entirely a new thing either. It’s been that way in wrestling forever. You do your thing, then you go away and you’re not doing it anymore. People will act like the show won’t go on without you, but it always does.

I don’t know what went on with B-Fab. She wasn’t a very good wrestler (she was really new). Did she have an attitude problem? Did she have some problematic stuff in her social media? Was she someone else that didn’t want to get vaccinated? There are plenty of factors that may or may not have contributed.
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Old 11-09-2021, 06:11 AM   #31
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I’m agreeing with you, by the way. I wasn’t adding that to be argumentative. I often think about who isn’t expendable and the list is very, very small. But even if you got rid of a Roman Reigns, they’d just find someone else.
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Old 11-10-2021, 04:56 AM   #32
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What do you mean EC3 never got called up? He had that 3 week feud with Ambrose where he was silent and got smashed.
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Old 11-10-2021, 06:23 AM   #33
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What do you mean EC3 never got called up? He had that 3 week feud with Ambrose where he was silent and got smashed.
I don't remember this at all, which is a great example of how botched that was. I only remember him being back in NXT and being really shocked he was able to still call himself EC3 instead of going back to being Derek Bateman. He was jacked, had swag, and was already well trained in the "WWE way" since he was there before, so he seemed like yet another no-brainer roster addition.
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Old 11-10-2021, 06:59 PM   #34
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I don't remember this at all, which is a great example of how botched that was. I only remember him being back in NXT and being really shocked he was able to still call himself EC3 instead of going back to being Derek Bateman. He was jacked, had swag, and was already well trained in the "WWE way" since he was there before, so he seemed like yet another no-brainer roster addition.
On December 17, 2018, it was announced EC3 would be debuting on the main roster. During the following weeks, he was seen during backstage segments of Raw and SmackDown Live, before making his official debut on the February 4, 2019 episode of Raw, appearing on Alexa Bliss' talk show A Moment Of Bliss. During the segment, EC3 was interrupted by Dean Ambrose, leading to a match that EC3 won. The following week on Raw, they competed in a rematch, which Ambrose won with a small package. After his short feud with Ambrose, EC3 would be off Raw for the following months, and was relegated to Main Event as a jobber. At the WrestleMania 35 pre-show on April 7, EC3 competed in the André the Giant Memorial Battle Royal, but was eliminated early in the match.

Or as Noid would put it; “they gave him a big opportunity in an angle with one of the top guys on the brand”.
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Old 11-11-2021, 03:04 AM   #35
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On December 17, 2018, it was announced EC3 would be debuting on the main roster. During the following weeks, he was seen during backstage segments of Raw and SmackDown Live, before making his official debut on the February 4, 2019 episode of Raw, appearing on Alexa Bliss' talk show A Moment Of Bliss. During the segment, EC3 was interrupted by Dean Ambrose, leading to a match that EC3 won. The following week on Raw, they competed in a rematch, which Ambrose won with a small package. After his short feud with Ambrose, EC3 would be off Raw for the following months, and was relegated to Main Event as a jobber. At the WrestleMania 35 pre-show on April 7, EC3 competed in the André the Giant Memorial Battle Royal, but was eliminated early in the match.

Or as Noid would put it; “they gave him a big opportunity in an angle with one of the top guys on the brand”.
EC3 sucks. Did he really deserve more than he got? Come on now.
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Old 11-10-2021, 04:57 AM   #36
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And Jesus, I’d forgotten how they botched that round of call ups with Ricochet, Black, Gargano and Ciampa.
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Old 11-10-2021, 04:58 AM   #37
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Though to be fair, it was totally the talents fault that they didn’t get over.
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Old 11-10-2021, 12:52 PM   #38
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The budget cut reason doesnt have to mean WWE is strapped for cash, it just means that they have more employees than they need. If they are making a billion dollars a year, saving 5 million on wrestlers isnt really much of a difference one way or the other.

That is the issue to me, the negative press and bad optics of saving half a percent of the yearly budget is not worth it. They would be better off keeping those guys on payroll than killing the morale of the locker room.
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Old 11-10-2021, 03:22 PM   #39
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The budget cut reason doesnt have to mean WWE is strapped for cash, it just means that they have more employees than they need. If they are making a billion dollars a year, saving 5 million on wrestlers isnt really much of a difference one way or the other.

That is the issue to me, the negative press and bad optics of saving half a percent of the yearly budget is not worth it. They would be better off keeping those guys on payroll than killing the morale of the locker room.
This is a better argument, but I’d just disagree that they are truly better off. I think their stock price is what matters to them, and I think releases are not only necessary but healthy.

Keep in mind you might be cutting anti-vaxers, people with attitudes, people who want out, etc. In some cases, it opens up more spots for other talent.
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Old 11-10-2021, 01:31 PM   #40
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*profit-oriented business acts like profit-oriented business*

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