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Old 08-23-2017, 09:52 PM   #1
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The discussion is old though. It's not like Vince being out of touch is new news. The shit Cornette hates about WWE has been going on for decades. Omega is a new fad.
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Old 08-23-2017, 09:55 PM   #2
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It's quite possible that if you actually brought the exact point up Cornette would say "Vince also should never have been accepted into the business". It's not like he's shied away from the idea.
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Old 08-23-2017, 09:57 PM   #3
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I've heard Meltzer present it to him when arguing about Omega and Cornette skirted the issue. Though, old softball Dave didn't push it any further.
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Old 08-24-2017, 12:27 AM   #4
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Throat strike with a magic dick sounds like something RP would be in to
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Old 08-24-2017, 09:20 AM   #5
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Pete Dunne's video game promotion is a billion times more ridiculous than anything Kenny Omega has ever done. Cornette would be calling for him to be hung drawn and quartered if he knew about it and that's the problem with Jim, he thinks his personally precieved negatives means fuck the positives and calls for a guy to be murdered for disrespecting "his" wrestling business. Comparing practicing comedy wrestling to being a practicing Nazi is an absolutely braindead assessment.
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Old 08-26-2017, 11:48 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Ultra Mantis View Post
Pete Dunne's video game promotion is a billion times more ridiculous than anything Kenny Omega has ever done. Cornette would be calling for him to be hung drawn and quartered if he knew about it and that's the problem with Jim, he thinks his personally precieved negatives means fuck the positives and calls for a guy to be murdered for disrespecting "his" wrestling business. Comparing practicing comedy wrestling to being a practicing Nazi is an absolutely braindead assessment.
I haven't seen Dunne's promotion, so I can't comment on that. I do disagree with your assessment of Cornette and "his" business. Cornette is one of the least selfish dudes in the industry. I think that's a huge part of what pisses him off today -- the "kids" are selfish in trying to "get their shit in" and undercut the main event guys, for example. It's selfish to "go into business for yourself" and do comedy stuff while the main event dudes are trying to get seriously over. "Fuck the positives?" Maybe. I think Cornette sees the positives pretty clearly, but what are the positives to swinging your dick around like it's a magic rod? I think Cornette has effectively weighed the "positives" of that approach against the positives of another approach, and demonstrated how it's not that positive.

It comes down to 15-year-old boy syndrome to me. There are people who think that bad for the sake of becoming good is good, but it's really just bad. Or, if it does effectively masquerade, it's only good until something good comes along.
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Old 08-27-2017, 04:44 PM   #7
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I haven't seen Dunne's promotion, so I can't comment on that. I do disagree with your assessment of Cornette and "his" business. Cornette is one of the least selfish dudes in the industry. I think that's a huge part of what pisses him off today -- the "kids" are selfish in trying to "get their shit in" and undercut the main event guys, for example. It's selfish to "go into business for yourself" and do comedy stuff while the main event dudes are trying to get seriously over. "Fuck the positives?" Maybe. I think Cornette sees the positives pretty clearly, but what are the positives to swinging your dick around like it's a magic rod? I think Cornette has effectively weighed the "positives" of that approach against the positives of another approach, and demonstrated how it's not that positive.

It comes down to 15-year-old boy syndrome to me. There are people who think that bad for the sake of becoming good is good, but it's really just bad. Or, if it does effectively masquerade, it's only good until something good comes along.
And there we hit a major flaw in your, or should I say Cornette's argument: Ignorance. He's learning about most of the stuff third hand, making assumptions and then holding grudges over his own misconceptions. Pete Dunne is a great world class talent until somebody sends Jim Cornette a video of him being frozen in place by a guy dressed as Sub Zero.

As for fuck the positives, you seem to have missed the context of that one entirely. There is no weighing up when it comes to "Fuck Kenny Omega / Mick Foley / Cody Rhodes / Ciampa / etc" because all the positives become moot over one small thing.

Best wrestler in the world? Fuck him, he wrestled a little girl, blackball him and slit his throat.

Good friend of 30 years, highly successful icon of the industry? Took a dick flip, fuck him what a piece of shit.

Guy I've been singing the praises of lately but just found out he took a thumb in the ass spot in PWG years ago? Fuck him, break his legs, ban him from wrestling.

Son of one the all time greats, been on good terms since he was a child, been a big supporter of up until now? Yeah he took a dick flip too, fuck him, burn in hell what a piece of shit.

In every Cornette clip I've ever heard of him going off on somebody he literally uses the term "MY business", he's selfish as fuck, as is every other promotor ever. He thinks his way is the only way and anyone who does something he doesn't like deserves banishment or death. Unless this is supposed to be humour? Absurdist humour doesn't fit such a serious man though does it?

As multiple people have stressed, Joey Ryan is a niche comedy act and he isn't hurting anyone with his dumb move. Let's not forget Jim Cornette slapped Santino because he thought Santino laughing made the Boogeyman look like he wasn't legit. He thought The fucking Boogeyman didn't make wrestling look like utter shit. This was even before they gave him the "oh he just thinks he's a Boogeyman because he's an actor playing a part or something and he went too deep" backstory because they realised how fucking dumb the character was. Maybe everyone who wrestles Joey Ryan is an actor, playing the part of a guy who was paid to grab his dick because wrestling. Just to re-iterate, I'm not a fan of Joey Ryan.

If you need to keep going back to Joey Ryan, who is not a great wrestler and has found a way to get himself booking and make more money, as the be all and end all example of Cornette is always right it would seem you are the one who is grapsing at straws CyNoid.

You know who Cornette or anyone never goes after when they mention Ryan? Danshoku Dino, the guy who gave him the dick flip spot in the first place and has been doing a much more homo-erotic number of penis spots for the past ten years in DDT. Ryan isn't even doing anything new. Ignorance. Such ignorance.
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Old 08-27-2017, 05:54 PM   #8
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I'm not trying to win a debate with you Noid. You clearly have an axe to grind with Omega because you're a Cornette mark.
This is an untruth. I don't have an axe to grind at all. I watched the Okada match and he came out mugging. I hate it when actors do it in films, I hate it when Alexa Bliss does it, I hate it when ZSJ does it. William Regal and Vince are the only people that can get away with it for me. Stop projecting conveniences for the sake of your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra Mantis View Post
And there we hit a major flaw in your, or should I say Cornette's argument: Ignorance. He's learning about most of the stuff third hand, making assumptions and then holding grudges over his own misconceptions. Pete Dunne is a great world class talent until somebody sends Jim Cornette a video of him being frozen in place by a guy dressed as Sub Zero.


As for fuck the positives, you seem to have missed the context of that one entirely. There is no weighing up when it comes to "Fuck Kenny Omega / Mick Foley / Cody Rhodes / Ciampa / etc" because all the positives become moot over one small thing.

Best wrestler in the world? Fuck him, he wrestled a little girl, blackball him and slit his throat.
Lol, Omega is not the best wrestler in the world. Also, Cornette has dealt with Omega personally. Cornette is more plugged into what is going on, for the sake of his podcasts, than convenient for your argument. And why is Cornette held to some standard of journalism anyway? Why does he need to first-hand document all the things he wants to have an opinion on? Sure, that would be good practice, but he could not like Omega because of the color of his hair if he saw fit. It just wouldn't make for a well-formed point.

As it turns out, though, Cornette does have well-formed points. Yes, when you do pretend to be playing Mortal Kombat it is "fuck that." And? Where are the "positives" in that? I brushed over that point because I don't find it particularly compelling. If a talented actor appeared in a shitty movie, the actor can still be talented, but it doesn't make the movie not shitty. I really don't get what you are trying to achieve with that point.

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Good friend of 30 years, highly successful icon of the industry? Took a dick flip, fuck him what a piece of shit.
Actually, that wasn't even Cornette's stance. Try again.

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Originally Posted by Ultra Mantis View Post
Guy I've been singing the praises of lately but just found out he took a thumb in the ass spot in PWG years ago? Fuck him, break his legs, ban him from wrestling.
Who was that? If anything, Cornette has blinders up to guys he likes. Try again.

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In every Cornette clip I've ever heard of him going off on somebody he literally uses the term "MY business", he's selfish as fuck, as is every other promotor ever. He thinks his way is the only way and anyone who does something he doesn't like deserves banishment or death. Unless this is supposed to be humour? Absurdist humour doesn't fit such a serious man though does it?
I think Cornette is hilarious, frankly. Some of his jokes, as in actual jokes can be labored, but he delivers them with charm. I find Cornette funny and you find guys being beaten up my magic penises funny. Different tastes, I guess.

I've listened to quite a few Corny rants, and I've actually never picked up on those possessives. It always came off to me like he sees the business as belonging to the boys. I'm not saying you're wrong on this point, I've just never actually picked up on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra Mantis View Post
As multiple people have stressed, Joey Ryan is a niche comedy act and he isn't hurting anyone with his dumb move. Let's not forget Jim Cornette slapped Santino because he thought Santino laughing made the Boogeyman look like he wasn't legit. He thought The fucking Boogeyman didn't make wrestling look like utter shit. This was even before they gave him the "oh he just thinks he's a Boogeyman because he's an actor playing a part or something and he went too deep" backstory because they realised how fucking dumb the character was. Maybe everyone who wrestles Joey Ryan is an actor, playing the part of a guy who was paid to grab his dick because wrestling. Just to re-iterate, I'm not a fan of Joey Ryan.
He's niche and he's shit, and we agree that he's not the biggest problem in wrestling, but that doesn't mean he isn't a problem.

Also, your Boogeyman narrative is wrong. Cornette hated the gimmick, but the edict came from above to use it. Corny tried to pass it off as he was mentally unstable and actually believes he is The Boogeyman, which is ridiculous, but the man himself is very dangerous and clearly has a warped sense of reality. That got amended to the actor thing on the main roster.

As for Santino -- yeah, Corny probably shouldn't have slapped him. On the sliding scale of things veterans do to rookies, it is very low on the totem pole, but that's still no justification. Santino's responses to Cornette as actually very weak for such a funny guy. He's like "I probably could have whipped Cornette" and Cornette is like "Of course you could have! That wasn't the point, you fucking idiot." A good metaphor.

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Originally Posted by Ultra Mantis View Post
If you need to keep going back to Joey Ryan, who is not a great wrestler and has found a way to get himself booking and make more money, as the be all and end all example of Cornette is always right it would seem you are the one who is grapsing at straws CyNoid.
Lol, what? Exhibit A on how the anti-logic camp always seems to spiral out a bit when things go beyond the trendy "Cornette is an old asshole" argument. Apparently I am hinging everything on Joey Ryan being a git to defend everything Cornette has ever said or done? Okay, that became fallacious very quickly.

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You know who Cornette or anyone never goes after when they mention Ryan? Danshoku Dino, the guy who gave him the dick flip spot in the first place and has been doing a much more homo-erotic number of penis spots for the past ten years in DDT. Ryan isn't even doing anything new. Ignorance. Such ignorance.
How is this...why would you...ugh. Yes, because when talking about how shitty an independent geek is, you always need to go back to the innovative of said geekiness, because it's important to be a connoisseur of such things. The other day I saw a movie with a friend. It was directed by someone named G. Night Shyamalan or something. My friend didn't like it -- the twist "insulted their intelligence" or something absurd. It's a good thing I was there to point out that this director didn't invent the twist. Thankfully this arose my friend from their misconceptions about that film being terrible, and they loved it when they realized that there is a precedent for such shit.
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Old 08-27-2017, 06:48 PM   #9
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How is this...why would you...ugh. Yes, because when talking about how shitty an independent geek is, you always need to go back to the innovative of said geekiness, because it's important to be a connoisseur of such things. The other day I saw a movie with a friend. It was directed by someone named G. Night Shyamalan or something. My friend didn't like it -- the twist "insulted their intelligence" or something absurd. It's a good thing I was there to point out that this director didn't invent the twist. Thankfully this arose my friend from their misconceptions about that film being terrible, and they loved it when they realized that there is a precedent for such shit.
Why would you brag about taking an imaginary friend to the movies?


Seriously though, doesn't it get boring writing such nonsense that no one including yourself cares about? You don't have anything else to do with your imaginary friend except write this garbage?
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Old 08-24-2017, 09:55 AM   #10
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Oh man, when their Nintendo GameCube exploded and Tyler Bate and Pete Dunne swapped bodies. What a time to be alive.
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Old 08-26-2017, 10:27 AM   #11
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The Bucks' match with Taguchi and Ricochet on the G1 Climax finals shows they are perfectly capable of wrestling a proper tag match with psychology and telling a story.

They just choose not to on their Indy appearances because people who go to those shows want to see the spots and the silliness. They're athletic T-shirt salesmen.
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Old 08-26-2017, 11:20 AM   #12
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The Bucks' match with Taguchi and Ricochet on the G1 Climax finals shows they are perfectly capable of wrestling a proper tag match with psychology and telling a story.

They just choose not to on their Indy appearances because people who go to those shows want to see the spots and the silliness. They're athletic T-shirt salesmen.
Also, springboard "she calls that the rear view"
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Old 08-26-2017, 11:51 PM   #13
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The Bucks' match with Taguchi and Ricochet on the G1 Climax finals shows they are perfectly capable of wrestling a proper tag match with psychology and telling a story.

They just choose not to on their Indy appearances because people who go to those shows want to see the spots and the silliness. They're athletic T-shirt salesmen.
That's true. I don't doubt The Young Bucks can work. It's the flip-side to what I used to say about Heath Slater: "Just because he doesn't do some things doesn't mean he can't do them." And that is why I respect Heath Slater a lot more, and sincerely submit that he's better than them.
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Old 08-26-2017, 11:55 PM   #14
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Pretty sure the Young Bucks' bank accounts suggest they're better than Heath Slater.
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Old 08-26-2017, 11:55 PM   #15
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Noid, as much as you try to prove otherwise, you are a fucking mark and a half sometimes.
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Old 08-26-2017, 11:58 PM   #16
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I'm guessing you think Heath Slater is better than Kenny Omega.
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Old 08-27-2017, 12:05 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
Pretty sure the Young Bucks' bank accounts suggest they're better than Heath Slater.
That would be interesting to see. I don't know how much Slater is getting paid, but I don't think that's as clear-cut as you think it is.

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Noid, as much as you try to prove otherwise, you are a fucking mark and a half sometimes.
Heh.

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Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
I'm guessing you think Heath Slater is better than Kenny Omega.
I'd rather watch Heath Slater regularly, honestly. That's my subjective take. Objectively, I think that Omega is a lot better than The Young Bucks. This is a perfect example of your projections by the way. I do love you, but sometimes you don't acknowledge you're guessing and just argue from the assumed point. Not picking a bone here (honestly), just pointing it out.
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Old 08-27-2017, 12:20 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
That would be interesting to see. I don't know how much Slater is getting paid, but I don't think that's as clear-cut as you think it is.



Heh.



I'd rather watch Heath Slater regularly, honestly. That's my subjective take. Objectively, I think that Omega is a lot better than The Young Bucks. This is a perfect example of your projections by the way. I do love you, but sometimes you don't acknowledge you're guessing and just argue from the assumed point. Not picking a bone here (honestly), just pointing it out.
I'm not trying to win a debate with you Noid. You clearly have an axe to grind with Omega because you're a Cornette mark.
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Old 08-27-2017, 12:30 PM   #19
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This is what wrestling has come to. Now Joey Ryan has shitty imitators.
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Old 08-27-2017, 01:28 PM   #20
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This is what wrestling has come to. Now Joey Ryan has shitty imitators.
Jesus Christ...
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Old 08-27-2017, 03:57 PM   #21
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This is what wrestling has come to. Now Joey Ryan has shitty imitators.
Not sure what this has to do with Joey Ryan, it's not realistic at all that a man could flip you using his dick, whereas one guy holding you down while you struggle and scream "NO!" as another man eats your ass is incredibly realistic and a real danger.
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Old 08-27-2017, 11:34 PM   #22
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Not sure what this has to do with Joey Ryan, it's not realistic at all that a man could flip you using his dick, whereas one guy holding you down while you struggle and scream "NO!" as another man eats your ass is incredibly realistic and a real danger.
I am putting this nonsense at Ryan's feet. White Mike was probably like "Hey, this dude went viral by flipping people with his dick. How can I top that? I know, I'll eat a dude's ass in the ring!"

And I say that knowing full well that you likely wouldn't have even heard of it had I not posted it. My point stands, though.
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Old 08-27-2017, 12:32 PM   #23
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I don't think Omega vs Okada are the greatest matches EVERRRRRRR but I don't know any matches that are. I just think they were fucking fantastic. Last I checked, Omega hasn't crippled anyone. And yes, you are projecting on Omega thinking he's trying to justify "crippling" people.
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Old 08-27-2017, 12:36 PM   #24
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And honestly, as an athletic spectacle, Omega vs Okada is on a different planet to Hart vs Austin. Now, you can argue about storytelling, but one is North American style storytelling vs Japanese strongstyle storytelling. While Okada v Omega the selling was great, the only thing I didn't like was near fall city, whereas Hart/Austin was believable the whole way. 850 nearfalls in a match is a bit contrived. Everything else is money. And I like Omega's facials, I see nothing wrong with them. But you're a hater, so I shouldn't be surprised.
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Old 08-27-2017, 01:29 PM   #25
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Welp. If eating some ass puts a smile on everyone's face...
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Old 08-27-2017, 06:14 PM   #26
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Okay you're trolling, I get it.
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:05 AM   #27
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Okay you're trolling, I get it.
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Old 08-28-2017, 06:09 AM   #28
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You know who Cornette or anyone never goes after when they mention Ryan? Danshoku Dino, the guy who gave him the dick flip spot in the first place and has been doing a much more homo-erotic number of penis spots for the past ten years in DDT. Ryan isn't even doing anything new. Ignorance. Such ignorance.
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
How is this...why would you...ugh. Yes, because when talking about how shitty an independent geek is, you always need to go back to the innovative of said geekiness, because it's important to be a connoisseur of such things. The other day I saw a movie with a friend. It was directed by someone named G. Night Shyamalan or something. My friend didn't like it -- the twist "insulted their intelligence" or something absurd. It's a good thing I was there to point out that this director didn't invent the twist. Thankfully this arose my friend from their misconceptions about that film being terrible, and they loved it when they realized that there is a precedent for such shit.
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Okay you're trolling, I get it.
I'm gonna have to step in here because dammit, when you call someone out for being a troll it should be because they're either being a Goddamn troll or so fucking retarded that they're accidentally being troll-like.

Noid's response to this is valid. Cornette doesn't have to trace the roots of the dick spot and roast the originator of it. Ryan is the guy who is "internet famous" for it so he's the one who gets the attention. Good or bad. It's not up to Cornette to research the history of the dick spot and call out Dashiki Dildo before he's allowed to have an opinion on the guy who is actually known for the spot.
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Old 08-28-2017, 06:24 PM   #29
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I'm gonna have to step in here because dammit, when you call someone out for being a troll it should be because they're either being a Goddamn troll or so fucking retarded that they're accidentally being troll-like.

Noid's response to this is valid. Cornette doesn't have to trace the roots of the dick spot and roast the originator of it. Ryan is the guy who is "internet famous" for it so he's the one who gets the attention. Good or bad. It's not up to Cornette to research the history of the dick spot and call out Dashiki Dildo before he's allowed to have an opinion on the guy who is actually known for the spot.
Thanks, fan. As always, you a trooper for what is good, right and American. I was going to let it go unsaid, because it felt like a concession to me, but that does feel like snarky false attribution. But it at least feels like an avoidance of actually contending the point.
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Old 08-27-2017, 07:31 PM   #30
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Old 08-28-2017, 06:16 AM   #31
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Also, Mike Adamle is a troll.

Yeah, I said it.
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Old 08-28-2017, 07:14 AM   #32
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Honestly, how is this conversation still going on? Who fucking cares if there is some guy doing dick flips in some bingo hall in japan? Who fucking cares if Mick Foley joined him. It's a niche style of wrestling for a niche audience performed in tiny arenas. This shit isn't main eventing WrestleMania or being forced down anyone's throat.

Once in a while I might be in the mood for an Ebessan Vs Kamen match, but for the most part, the comedy stuff doesn't interest me. So you know what I do? I don't watch it. I go watch the type of wrestling I do like.

Point is, we live in an era where people are doing different and creative things with wrestling, but if you don't like those things, there are plenty of other alternatives available at the press of a button. You can either argue on the internet for pages and pages, or you can find some wrestling you like and actually, ya know, enjoy yourself.
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Old 08-28-2017, 08:56 AM   #33
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Once in a while I might be in the mood for an Ebessan Vs Kamen match, but for the most part, the comedy stuff doesn't interest me. So you know what I do? I don't watch it. I go watch the type of wrestling I do like.
I'd argue that Ebessan vs. Kamen are the George Carlin of comedy matches, while Joey Ryan is the Larry the Cable Guy of same.

1. Their classic stuff was pretty much making fun of the tropes of wrestling itself. Like the arm bar spot looking like a dance bit so it devolves into them dancing with each other. Or the International being subverted with a stomp after the drop down.

2. Ebessan was in a six man mixed tag where one of the opponents was Super Delphin (sp?). Delphin made a hot tag and had Ebessan begging off in the corner. Ebessan took the opportunity to... ask for a raise. (Super Delphin ran Osaka Pro, which is their primary promotion)

3. Samoa Joe used to do a spot where he'd casually walk out of a corner to avoid an opponent charging for an aerial move, looking over the shoulder like they are dumb asses. It was a serious take on an Ebessan spot, which took something goofy and made himself look bad ass. I can't think of a way that the Dick Flip can be done seriously and people buy it.

4. The most important thing right here. Despite all that, what makes Ebessan and Kamen different from the likes of Ryan and Santino was this: They were actually GOOD WORKERS. Kamen was one hell of an aerialist, and Ebessan/Kikutaro has the best Shining Wizard outside of Mutoh himself. Both were capable of having damn good matches that were serious. Don't believe me? Look up Ebessan vs. Jushin Liger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra Mantis
You know who Cornette or anyone never goes after when they mention Ryan? Danshoku Dino, the guy who gave him the dick flip spot in the first place and has been doing a much more homo-erotic number of penis spots for the past ten years in DDT. Ryan isn't even doing anything new. Ignorance. Such ignorance.
The initial dick spot with Dino, oddly enough, was the only time the Dick Spot was actually funny.
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Old 08-28-2017, 02:31 PM   #34
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Vas, I think you missed my point.
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Old 08-28-2017, 03:09 PM   #35
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Vas, I think you missed my point.
No, I get that comedy matches can be a niche thing, so you give it all a pass. I was making a separate point: That there's nuance in the whole comedy pass. At some point there's a dividing line between "Good" comedy wrestling and "Bad" comedy wrestling. "Good" comedy gets a pass with me. "Bad" comedy does not.
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Old 08-28-2017, 02:46 PM   #36
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Lots of points being missed on this page apparently.
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:50 PM   #37
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I just don't see why anything needs a pass and other things don't. Why take a stand against something that other people are enjoying, and is too small and niche to hurt anything.
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:55 PM   #38
Destor
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The dam is busted, nothing matters anymore.
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:59 PM   #39
Fignuts
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The mystique and "sanctity" of the business was shot in the leg with the steroid trial, and double tapped by the rise of the internet. It was dead long before Joey Ryan took his first dick flip. I just see the comedy stuff as guys using the modern environment to entertain fans in a new way. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 08-28-2017, 05:00 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
The mystique and "sanctity" of the business was shot in the leg with the steroid trial, and double tapped by the rise of the internet. It was dead long before Joey Ryan took his first dick flip. I just see the comedy stuff as guys using the modern environment to entertain fans in a new way. Nothing more, nothing less.
agreed
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