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Old 05-17-2018, 03:30 PM   #1
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I think skepticism is disproportionately applied in these situations. If you can say you would honestly apply it, good for you. But it was about the standard for evidence, not the subject's sex/gender. That's why I find "it would have nothing to do with sex" (paraphrasing) odd when the answer could have just been "sure." You placed emphasis in a place I didn't expect you to.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:33 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I think skepticism is disproportionately applied in these situations. If you can say you would honestly apply it, good for you. But it was about the standard for evidence, not the subject's sex/gender. That's why I find "it would have nothing to do with sex" (paraphrasing) odd when the answer could have just been "sure." You placed emphasis in a place I didn't expect you to.
If it was about the standard of evidence and not the sex/gender then saying "I wonder what would happen if it was the opposite sex/genger..." is odd.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:37 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
If it was about the standard of evidence and not the sex/gender then saying "I wonder what would happen if it was the opposite sex/genger..." is odd.
Okay, would you apply the same standard of evidence to the woman in this case should Enzo decide to counter-sue, for example? Or would you assume guilt because she lacks credibility? Rhetorical question. We both know what the answer should be, but it's something to ask yourself.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:40 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Okay, would you apply the same standard of evidence to the woman in this case should Enzo decide to counter-sue, for example? Or would you assume guilt because she lacks credibility? Rhetorical question. We both know what the answer should be, but it's something to ask yourself.
Yes. My basic standard of evidence doesn't change regardless of the accusation. Yours changes if the accusation is rape specifically. Which is ridiculous. That's the whole point we've been trying to make.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:42 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Yes. My standard of evidence doesn't change. For anything. Yours changes if the accusation is rape specifically. That's the difference.
No it doesn't. As I've said countless times, Enzo should not be convicted if the evidence isn't there. That doesn't mean that it's logical to suggest she is lying.

How can people not get this?

* Most sexual assault allegations aren't baseless and there is not enough evidence to convict aren't mutually exclusively ideas. They can both be true.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:31 PM   #6
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If a woman came up on charges and people were using ridiculous reasoning that has nothing to do with the case then yes, I would defend her. Doesn't change anything.

Also, when you ask "I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation", you're implying sexism. Don't wait for someone else to flat out say it and then act like THEY were the ones bringing sexism into the equation just because they actually used the word first. lol
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
If a woman came up on charges and people were using ridiculous reasoning that has nothing to do with the case then yes, I would defend her. Doesn't change anything.

Also, when you ask "I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation", you're implying sexism. Don't wait for someone else to flat out say it and then act like THEY were the ones bringing sexism into the equation just because they actually used the word first. lol
I explained that the quote was unfinished and clarified. If you hang onto it, I'm going to assume it's because you have nothing else.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:38 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I explained that the quote was unfinished and clarified. If you hang onto it, I'm going to assume it's because you have nothing else.
Your clarification didn't change anything.

If it's about a standard of evidence, I don't care about sex OR type of accusation. You seem to think WE'RE the ones treating it differently because it's a rape accusation which is just insane.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Your clarification didn't change anything.

If it's about a standard of evidence, I don't care about sex OR type of accusation. You seem to think WE'RE the ones treating it differently because it's a rape accusation which is just insane.
Actually, I specified in that post that I don't think Dale would treat it differently, and that I hoped you wouldn't. It's just something that is definitely observable out there. You've got your back up like I aimed that at you.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:33 PM   #10
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"Would you help that old lady cross the road?"

"I'm not doing it because she's a lady!"

"Umm...okay? Are you going to help her though?"

That's how it came off in my mind.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
"Would you help that old lady cross the road?"

"I'm not doing it because she's a lady!"

"Umm...okay? Are you going to help her though?"

That's how it came off in my mind.
lol It was more like

"Would you help that old man cross the road?"

"Yeah"

"What about if it's an old woman?"

"Yeah. Doesn't matter what sex the old person is."

"... Why would you specify that? Odd."
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:40 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
lol It was more like

"Would you help that old man cross the road?"

"Yeah"

"What about if it's an old woman?"

"Yeah. Doesn't matter what sex the old person is."

"... Why would you specify that? Odd."
I'm sorry for my part in leaving that as your interpretation. I hope me clarifying cleared things up for you.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:35 PM   #13
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Remember how everyone on TPWW defended Snuka when he wasn't convicted of murdering that women? #GenderBias

Oh wait you don't remember anyone on TPWW defending Snuka?
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
Remember how everyone on TPWW defended Snuka when he wasn't convicted of murdering that women? #GenderBias

Oh wait you don't remember anyone on TPWW defending Snuka?
Only destor but that's cuz he's a due process hoss so I respect him stubbornly sticking to his guns.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:36 PM   #15
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Look no further than Emmitt Till to understand false rape accusations. Just because it was a race issue as well doesn't mean shit. It's something that can be weaponized given the connotations of being accused of rape.

And yeah. Enzo isn't exactly the most sympathetic of examples, which makes this discussion all the more poignant.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:39 PM   #16
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Roberto Osuna, the closer of the Toronto Blue Jays has assault charges and a restraining order with a woman accuser. Nobody is defending him in this city. Believe me. With the details we know, it doesn't look good for him and it's very disappointing.

It is a case-by-case basis.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:41 PM   #17
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Noid: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:46 PM   #18
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Noid: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"
That's cute.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:43 PM   #19
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Noid never liked Enzo.

I'm sure if this story was about Danny Basham he would be defending him to the heavens.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:49 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savio View Post
Noid never liked Enzo.

I'm sure if this story was about Danny Basham he would be defending him to the heavens.
Just want to state very clearly that joking or not, the implication that I want Enzo to be a rapist is fucking ludicrous, distasteful, and I have contempt for it. Thanks, you're out.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:46 PM   #21
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The whole thing sucks regardless of what happened. Hate hearing about stuff like this.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:50 PM   #22
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The whole thing sucks regardless of what happened. Hate hearing about stuff like this.
Yep. Agree with this.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:02 PM   #23
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Well sometimes I have to speak for Dale because he's getting soft at his age.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:02 PM   #24
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WWE releases Enzo Amore05-17-2018 02:54 PMNoidNot provable about the claim. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence though, right?
WWE releases Enzo Amore05-17-2018 02:50 PMNoidEw
WWE releases Enzo Amore05-17-2018 02:47 PMNoidI hate the religious stuff, so I'm just going to neg-rep that misattribution. Also, you are being a dick and trivializing it while many are trying to have a somewhat serious conversation.


What religious stuff?
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:04 PM   #25
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Oof. Neg repping. Clearly Noid hasn't gone soft at his age.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:05 PM   #26
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Oof. Neg repping. Clearly Noid hasn't gone sawft at his age.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:07 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Oof. Neg repping. Clearly Noid hasn't gone soft at his age.
I only do it for things I find particularly distasteful. Not just incorrect things, things I don't like, or things I disagree with. I'm glad Savio cared enough to share.
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Old 05-19-2018, 06:12 PM   #28
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I only do it for things I find particularly distasteful. Not just incorrect things, things I don't like, or things I disagree with. I'm glad Savio cared enough to share.
Noid has never neg-repped me.
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Old 05-20-2018, 07:17 PM   #29
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Noid has never neg-repped me.
You've always been on the right side of history.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:17 PM   #30
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I bet if some dude accused Alexa Bliss of raping them Noid would consider her guilty despite the low stats.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:20 PM   #31
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My crazy, homeless lady down the street analogy still applies here. We can take out the ghosts. If she runs up and down the block saying she was raped by John Cena, I think it's fair to be more skeptical than you would if a more level-headed, trustworthy human being said the same. And that's the same with literally any crime.

And at no point should "Statistically, in other cases, the guy is usually guilty" come in to play. And without a doubt, going out of your way to make it clear that John Cena could definitely have raped that crazy homeless lady because "statistically" the accused is usually guilty is really fucked. Without calling him guilty, you're absolutely tying a stigma of guilt to him based on nothing but an accusation that can be made by anyone at any time.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:39 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
My crazy, homeless lady down the street analogy still applies here. We can take out the ghosts. If she runs up and down the block saying she was raped by John Cena, I think it's fair to be more skeptical than you would if a more level-headed, trustworthy human being said the same. And that's the same with literally any crime.

And at no point should "Statistically, in other cases, the guy is usually guilty" come in to play. And without a doubt, going out of your way to make it clear that John Cena could definitely have raped that crazy homeless lady because "statistically" the accused is usually guilty is really fucked. Without calling him guilty, you're absolutely tying a stigma of guilt to him based on nothing but an accusation that can be made by anyone at any time.
I think a healthy amount of skepticism with both can be applied. More or less are trivial in that situation. If it came down to the word of a reasonable and sane person against and unreasonable and insane one, of course you'd probably start with the reasonable person's. I don't see it as relevant to this case. If a choir girl said that Enzo raped her, would your stance really change? Should it change? I think we disagree here, because I think both should be taken seriously and don't see them on a versus screen. And if they both accused Enzo, then I think that looks worse for Enzo.

And why don't more crazies accuse John Cena of rape? Or Randy Orton? Or Shawn Michaels? Or Shane McMahon? I'm not saying if they did it would be true, but why doesn't that happen? Probably largely because it doesn't actually happen often at all, is disadvantageous to the party making the false claim (and a crime), and it's actually really hard to accuse someone of something if they don't have the means and opportunity, have an alibi, there are other witnesses, etc. I'm not making that as a legal argument -- of course the onus is not on the accused -- but just as a common sense one.
"John Cena raped me."
"When and where?"
"Um, Saturday at 9pm."
"He was on the other side of the world then." Easily ruled out.

When you say that quote shouldn't come into play, in what context are you referring? Because I think it is absolutely relevant when discussing it with people who claim "Pfft, she's lying. Enzo is a Superstar he can fuck anyone he wants," or when people claim that false allegations are rampant. Or when they claim it actually gives a woman power.

If John Cena was with the homeless lady, had sex with the homeless lady, did drugs with the homeless lady, the lady was admitted to the hospital with head injuries, etc., then yeah, I'd say the same thing in a conversation about it if people were like "Nah, impossible." I wouldn't go emailing strangers about it or drag it into every conversation. And given the woman's status and possible mental health, having "consensual sex" with a woman in that state could be questionable too. It's not as clean an analogy as you are making it out to be.

The thing is #fan those accusations aren't made by anyone at anytime. That's the whole point of pointing out that these things usually have something to them, dude. They're usually very serious things because people drag their names through the mud because "Look, this part here doesn't look true." We're going in circles now.

You're tying a stigma to her because of her mental health or whatever. I'm tying a stigma to Enzo because it's possible he raped a girl. We've both "I'm not saying she's definitely lying" or "I'm not saying he definitely did it." Let's just agree we're both assholes without the full knowledge of what happened and are projecting our own biases onto a situation that is dark and messy with no winner, whichever way you slice it.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:48 PM   #33
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You're tying a stigma to her because of her mental health or whatever. I'm tying a stigma to Enzo because it's possible he raped a girl.
There's a huge, enormous, universe-sized difference between "tying a stigma" to someone based on their own history/credibility/personality/addictions/mental health and tying a stigma to someone because they were simply accused of something. I think that idea that there's no difference is where the problem with this whole conversation lies.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:52 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
There's a huge, enormous, universe-sized difference between "tying a stigma" to someone based on their own history/credibility/personality/addictions/mental health and tying a stigma to someone because they were simply accused of something. I think that idea that there's no difference is where the problem with this whole conversation lies.
Accused of something that people don't normally accuse people of because then their history/credibility/personality/addictions/mental health are dragged through the mud. I think the oversimplification is disingenuous and you were premature to take aim at her.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:57 PM   #35
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Accused of something that people don't normally accuse people of because then their history/credibility/personality/addictions/mental health are dragged through the mud. I think the oversimplification is disingenuous and you were premature to take aim at her.
Just because people don't normally do it doesn't mean they didn't lie about it here.

See what I did there.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:21 PM   #36
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I feel the need to clarify this:

* My legal opinion is that Enzo is not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't think I disagree with anyone here.

* My intuition tells me that this is a fucking mess, it's not all on the level, and Enzo is, to some degree, likely a piece of shit. I agree with Dale on this being a mess, but I think we disagree on our opinion of Enzo's reputation, because our intuitions tell us different things about this situation.

* Statistics are not evidence, but they do reflect an observable world and do imply that when a woman makes an allegation, you take it seriously and then cycle back to the legal position on whether or not there is enough evidence for it. This is where I disagree with #fan, because he seems to think that you do not take an accuser seriously if they have a history of lying or substance abuse. I don't think that's fair process.

The statistic that most accusations are not baseless is not evidence itself and does not mean you forego due process. You can investigate as if someone is telling the truth without judging the accused as if they were.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:26 PM   #37
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I don't take an accuser seriously when she has lied about rape in the past, bragged to her friends about sleeping with Enzo, "Faked a pregnancy" when someone broke up with her, and has insufficient evidence of rape.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:50 PM   #38
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I don't take an accuser seriously when she has lied about rape in the past, bragged to her friends about sleeping with Enzo, "Faked a pregnancy" when someone broke up with her, and has insufficient evidence of rape.
And in this is a problem:

* Lying about rape in the past does not mean you are lying about it now. That's not something you can say with 100% certainty, just as people here are so evangelical about defending Enzo because it's not 100% certain he did it. The best predictor for future behavior is past behavior, yes, but as Dale and I mentioned earlier, people with messed up pasts are often more at risk; not less. It has nothing to do with the factual nature of what happened.

* Bragging about someone haven't sex with you, again, does not necessarily mean it was consensual. I wish I knew the name for it, but especially in young people, you see victims glamorize their abuse. It's "no biggie; happens all the time." "He's famous, it's cool." "I didn't say yes, but I didn't say no." "Yeah, it was fun, ha-ha-ha-ha, how cool that I got to do that thing, huh, huh?" It can take a while for the processing to occur. I AM NOT SAYING THIS DEFINITELY HAPPENED, IT WOULD JUST NOT BE UNUSUAL.

* Faking a pregnancy is irrelevant.

* Not all rape victims provide photographic and indisputable evidence of their assault to police for the convenience of an eventual trial, unfortunately.

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Old 05-17-2018, 04:55 PM   #39
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* Lying about rape in the past does not mean you are lying about it now.
Wait. So "Women tend not lie about rape" can be thrown around as meaningful in this conversation but "This woman definitely lies about rape" can't?
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:59 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Wait. So "Women tend not lie about rape" can be thrown around as meaningful in this conversation but "This woman definitely lies about rape" can't?
"This woman has definitely lied about rape" is not the same as "this woman is lying about rape." You know this, #fan. Come on. And if you're saying it, I guess it must be okay to say? I don't think think it's valid or on-point, but okay.
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