MLB Season Thread - Page 10

**Apprentice** · 08-20-2004, 03:02 PM

Damn you Gagne and your last two outings! Come on man and get your act together dude!!

**The Miz** · 08-20-2004, 10:16 PM

I don't watch much Twins game but Mark Mulder is not the AL Cy Young, his ERA is like 5 since the All Star Break and the wins are due to ridiculous run support. Tim Hudson has been the A's bets pithcer this year

**Loose Cannon** · 08-20-2004, 10:32 PM

You're kidding me right?

Let's just take a look at the stats and you decide:

Hudon

W: 8
L 4
ERA: 2.95
IP: 128.1
CG: 3
SHO: 2
SO: 66

MULDER:
W: 16
L: 4
ERA: 3.75
IP: 185.0
CG: 5
SHO: 1
SO: 119

Now, Hudon's been injured. I know. But saying he has been the A's best pitcher this year is not right.

**Loose Cannon** · 08-20-2004, 10:38 PM

And Santana has got Mulder out numbered on a lot of stats. It's going to be close.

**The Miz** · 08-20-2004, 10:46 PM

You're an idiot. Mulder has 25 starts and Hudson has 18. Look at the ERA, Hudson has been more effective. If Mulder had the run support that Hudson has gotten this season he would probably be creeping up on 10 losses. Hudson hasn't gotten shit all year and still has a very respectable record.

**ct2k** · 08-20-2004, 10:50 PM

Hudson is the A's ace imo despite Mulder's awesome year

**ct2k** · 08-20-2004, 10:51 PM

I'm really impressed with the way Jon Lieber has been pitching recently, he's been hot and cold all year but hopefully he'll carry it on, its not gonna be easy for Torre to choose 4 from the 6

**Loose Cannon** · 08-20-2004, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Miz

You're an idiot. Mulder has 25 starts and Hudson has 18. Look at the ERA, Hudson has been more effective. If Mulder had the run support that Hudson has gotten this season he would probably be creeping up on 10 losses. Hudson hasn't gotten shit all year and still has a very respectable record.

Didn't take long for the name calling did it? I'm looking at the stats and who's done more for the A'S? Mulder. Your looking at it like ERA decides if you are the better pitcher or not. Look at the Innings Pitched and the CG. Mulder is way up there. Best in the American League. Every other stat is Mulder. Yeah, Hudson has been injured. I know, I said that. How do you know his ERA wouldn't be higher if he had more starts? You can't say Hudson has been the A's best pitcher. Mulder has pitched a ton of more games and has done a lot more. Doesn't matter if Hudson has not had the oppurtunity. Mulder has him on everything.

I'll give you Hudson has been the best after the AS break, but ALL SEASON, IT'S Mulder.

**The Miz** · 08-20-2004, 11:16 PM

Yeah, lets look at stats some more. Stats never lie. How many Hudson starts have you watched this year? Mulder?

**Loose Cannon** · 08-20-2004, 11:21 PM

And your run support claim is crap. I just looked at all his games. The A's had games in there where they scored 13, 16, and 11 runs, but Mulder still only gave up 3 or 4 runs over 7 innings. The games where he gave up a lot of runs, the A's have lost. It's not like he's giving up 12 runs and the A's are scoring 16.

**Loose Cannon** · 08-20-2004, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Miz

Yeah, lets look at stats some more. Stats never lie. How many Hudson starts have you watched this year? Mulder?

so, you're telling me the stats are bullshit? Well if they are then my whole argument is bullshit and I'll say Hudson is the better pitcher.

**The Miz** · 08-20-2004, 11:23 PM

Since you seem to like to dig up stats (which are always right), how about you search this one for me: runs per game in Hudson starts and runs per game in Mulder starts

**The Miz** · 08-20-2004, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon

so, you're telling me the stats are bullshit? Well if they are then my whole argument is bullshit and I'll say Hudson is the better pitcher.

Stats aren't bullshit but you shouldn't look into them so much. Adam Dunn has more homeruns than Barry Bonds this year, who's the better power hitter?

**Loose Cannon** · 08-20-2004, 11:26 PM

^^Yeah, but that's one stat. Like I said before with the ERA, one stat doesn't mean you're the better pitcher. Look, I like Hudson and I think he is one hell of a pitcher. But this year, the whole year, Mulder has done more for the A's. That's all I'm saying.

And I'm looking for your run support stat.

**The Miz** · 08-20-2004, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon

But this year, the whole year, Mulder has done more for the A's.

That part I agree with. Mulder and Durazo are the A's MVPs. All I'm saying is Hudson has pitched better this year and would probably have better numbers if he had equal oppurtunities.

**Loose Cannon** · 08-20-2004, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Miz

That part I agree with. Mulder and Durazo are the A's MVPs. All I'm saying is Hudson has pitched better this year and would probably have better numbers if he had equal oppurtunities.

Dammit, what was I arguing then?

This is why I hate arguing on messsage boards.

Okay, if you don't look at the fact that Hudson's missed games, then yeah I'll agree that's Hudson's pitched better. But it's hard for me to say that when Mulder had had a lot more chances to fuck up.

I couldn't find the dam run support stat.

It's going to be higher for Mulder anyway cause he's pitched in more games.

But Opponent Batting Average is Higher for Hudson by like 20 points.

**BCWWF** · 08-21-2004, 03:29 AM

Lol, I tried to rep you guys but I already have in this thread apparantly :sad:

**Apprentice** · 08-21-2004, 04:19 AM

Beltre is freakin amazing! 4 homers in 2 days, including one off Smoltz. Beltre for MVP!!

**Apprentice** · 08-21-2004, 04:59 AM

Who you guys got for manager of the year?

My picks
NL: Bobby Cox(Atlanta Braves)
AL: Buck Showalter(Texas Rangers)

**ct2k** · 08-21-2004, 06:05 AM

I'm very undecided about manager of the year at the moment. With the Cy Young/Gold Glove/MVP i'm getting fairly set in my picks

**The Miz** · 08-21-2004, 02:51 PM

My picks as of right now

AL MVP: Vlad Guerrero
NL MVP: Barry Bonds
AL CY: Johan Santana
NL CY: Jason Schmidt
AL ROTY: Bobby Crosby
NL ROTY: Khalil Greene
AL MOTY: Buck Showalter
NL MOTY: Jim Tracy

**ct2k** · 08-21-2004, 04:39 PM

Mine as of right now:

AL MVP: Gary Sheffield
NL MVP: Barry Bonds

AL Cy Young: Johan Santana
NL Cy Young: Jason Schmidt

AL ROTY: Bobby Crosby

undecided about the rest so far

**The Outlaw** · 08-21-2004, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apprentice

Beltre is freakin amazing! 4 homers in 2 days, including one off Smoltz. Beltre for MVP!!

Do you want me to slap you now or later?

**Apprentice** · 08-21-2004, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Outlaw

Do you want me to slap you now or later?

Hahaha. why? you a braves fan?

**CNM** · 08-21-2004, 06:09 PM

My picks:

AL MVP: Vladimir Guerrero
NL MVP: Barry Bonds
AL CY: Johan Santana
NL CY: Jason Schmidt
AL ROTY: Bobby Crosby
NL ROTY: Matt Holliday
AL MOTY: Buck Showalter
NL MOTY: Bobby Cox

**BCWWF** · 08-21-2004, 07:48 PM

AL MVP: A-Rod
NL MVP: Bonds
AL CY: Santana
NL CY: Schmidt
AL ROTY: Crosby (You're all lucky Lew and Morneau aren't eligable and Mauer was injured

NL ROTY: No Idea?
AL MOTY: Torre
NL MOTY: Cox (underrated)

**The Outlaw** · 08-22-2004, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apprentice

Hahaha. why? you a braves fan?

Yes.

Yeah I think Cox should actually get MOTY this year. I'm always down on him because everyone praises him like a legend but this year he has done really well with what he has methinks.

**The Miz** · 08-22-2004, 04:49 PM

If Cox is so underrated life all of you guys are saying, don't you think he should have a little more to show for than 1 championship in 13 tries.

**The Outlaw** · 08-22-2004, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Miz

If Cox is so underrated life all of you guys are saying, don't you think he should have a little more to show for than 1 championship in 13 tries.

See my post.

Ive never been a huge fan of him for this reason, but this year I applaud him for what he has done, whether they wins a championship/division title or not.

**Apprentice** · 08-22-2004, 04:54 PM

Yea, I just think Cox has done an amazing job this year. He lost Maddux, Lopez and Sheffield and then made some great moves with Estrada, Drew and John Thompson??? He deserves a lot of credit when all the experts out there dismissed Atlanta as a 3rd place team at best in the east.

**BCWWF** · 08-22-2004, 04:57 PM

I say he is underrated because of all the division titles, world series appearances, winning seasons etc. Maybe they only won the World Series once, but most of those times he probably wasn't coaching the better team, I don't think he is unable to manage a World Series champion. The way I look at it is that he has managed so many different teams so far when, this year especially, his team is not the most talented by far. I don't think he should have won MOY's every year, but as a whole I consider him a pretty good manager.

**The Miz** · 08-22-2004, 05:50 PM

Well the 1999 Series the Braves were ridiculously better than the Yankees. Torre outmanaged him badly.

**The Miz** · 08-22-2004, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apprentice

Yea, I just think Cox has done an amazing job this year. He lost Maddux, Lopez and Sheffield and then made some great moves with Estrada, Drew and John Thompson??? He deserves a lot of credit when all the experts out there dismissed Atlanta as a 3rd place team at best in the east.

He made those moves? Ever heard of a General Manager? The Braves have one of the best, too abd their manager can never do anything with the players he gets him.

**Apprentice** · 08-22-2004, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Miz

He made those moves? Ever heard of a General Manager? The Braves have one of the best, too abd their manager can never do anything with the players he gets him.

Well, i understand the GM made those moves but I just feel Cox has done a great job fitting those players in this year after losing so many essential players from last year. Thats compared to lets say Williams in Houston who got Clemens and Pettite and Beltran and continued to lose. I just feel that makes Cox a legit manager of the year.

**ct2k** · 08-22-2004, 07:53 PM

The Braves are lucky guys like JD Drew and Johnny Estrada have had awesome seasons as much as they are for having Cox. He's done the same thing he's always done, which is a good job, this is hardly a crappy team he's got.

**The Outlaw** · 08-22-2004, 08:27 PM

They have a lot of solid players, but you can't say you didn't say they were going to suck this year. Everyone was saying J "DL" DRew (pure comedy right there) was going to bust and whatnot, but they've just played great together, and Chipper is FINALLY coming around. They don't really have a superstar, so I say Cox is doing a better job than he normally does (AKA what Miz referred to

)

**BCWWF** · 08-22-2004, 08:44 PM

The Braves don't have the most talented team in the NL East this year, at least in my opinion they don't, but this is why I think they are winning:

My schools track team is a dynasty, we had won six straight state championships going into this year, but going into my senior year we clearly did not have the same talent on our team that we had in the years past. What happened, with good coaching and the motivation of not failing the guys before us, we pulled together and in the state meet we ended only four points behind a team much better than us (826 to 830, so four points is unbelievably close).

I think that is the same thing with the Braves this year, they are the best team over the past 15 years, but then this year they suddenly lost a lot of their talent. In the beginning they were playing like they should have, a 500 team trailing Phily and Florida. Then, when everyone else knew they weren't as good and were glad that they wouldn't be going to the playoffs for the first time in forever, they had something to prove and the players started playing harder and harder, and now because of good coaching and the tradition that goes with them, they look to prove everyone wrong and make the playoffs again.

If you have never been on a team like this, that may sound out there, but I guarantee you that their history is definately part of why they broke out. Its the same thing with teams like the Packers and the Yankees, you don't want to be the players on that team to lose, you are playing behind great tradition, and it really does help you win.

**ct2k** · 08-23-2004, 06:41 AM

Good point BCWWF. Mike Hampton and Chipper both finally coming around certainly hasn't hurt them either. I think with the Phillies it's down a good part to the disappointing pitching. As for the central, the Cubs and Astros just shouldn't be so far back with the talent they have, i don't care how good St Louis are.

**Corkscrewed** · 08-25-2004, 06:09 AM

Meanwhile, the Dodgers got back on the winning track by spanking the Expos and the Angels continue to win even when they do things the wrong way (like giving up 5 runs in five innings and stranding an army on the bases).

Here's to a Freeway World Series (yes, I can dream).

**Adder** · 08-25-2004, 01:00 PM

Alexis Rios in Toronto, had he been given the chance to play all year, would be the AL ROY.

Crosby is good too, but keep your eye on Rios in the future. [/Nostradamus]

08-20-2004, 03:02 PM	#361
Apprentice You're Fired Posts: 338	Damn you Gagne and your last two outings! Come on man and get your act together dude!!

08-20-2004, 10:16 PM	#362
The Miz Clutch Poster Posts: 11,997	I don't watch much Twins game but Mark Mulder is not the AL Cy Young, his ERA is like 5 since the All Star Break and the wins are due to ridiculous run support. Tim Hudson has been the A's bets pithcer this year

08-20-2004, 10:32 PM	#363
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	You're kidding me right? Let's just take a look at the stats and you decide: Hudon W: 8 L 4 ERA: 2.95 IP: 128.1 CG: 3 SHO: 2 SO: 66 MULDER: W: 16 L: 4 ERA: 3.75 IP: 185.0 CG: 5 SHO: 1 SO: 119 Now, Hudon's been injured. I know. But saying he has been the A's best pitcher this year is not right.

08-20-2004, 10:38 PM	#364
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	And Santana has got Mulder out numbered on a lot of stats. It's going to be close.

08-20-2004, 10:46 PM	#365
The Miz Clutch Poster Posts: 11,997	You're an idiot. Mulder has 25 starts and Hudson has 18. Look at the ERA, Hudson has been more effective. If Mulder had the run support that Hudson has gotten this season he would probably be creeping up on 10 losses. Hudson hasn't gotten shit all year and still has a very respectable record.

08-20-2004, 10:50 PM	#366
ct2k Triple A Posts: 48,551	Hudson is the A's ace imo despite Mulder's awesome year

08-20-2004, 10:51 PM	#367
ct2k Triple A Posts: 48,551	I'm really impressed with the way Jon Lieber has been pitching recently, he's been hot and cold all year but hopefully he'll carry it on, its not gonna be easy for Torre to choose 4 from the 6

08-20-2004, 11:16 PM	#369
The Miz Clutch Poster Posts: 11,997	Yeah, lets look at stats some more. Stats never lie. How many Hudson starts have you watched this year? Mulder?

08-20-2004, 11:21 PM	#370
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	And your run support claim is crap. I just looked at all his games. The A's had games in there where they scored 13, 16, and 11 runs, but Mulder still only gave up 3 or 4 runs over 7 innings. The games where he gave up a lot of runs, the A's have lost. It's not like he's giving up 12 runs and the A's are scoring 16.

08-20-2004, 11:23 PM	#372
The Miz Clutch Poster Posts: 11,997	Since you seem to like to dig up stats (which are always right), how about you search this one for me: runs per game in Hudson starts and runs per game in Mulder starts

08-20-2004, 11:26 PM	#374
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	^^Yeah, but that's one stat. Like I said before with the ERA, one stat doesn't mean you're the better pitcher. Look, I like Hudson and I think he is one hell of a pitcher. But this year, the whole year, Mulder has done more for the A's. That's all I'm saying. And I'm looking for your run support stat.

08-21-2004, 03:29 AM	#377
BCWWF The People's Member Posts: 18,092	Lol, I tried to rep you guys but I already have in this thread apparantly :sad:

08-21-2004, 04:19 AM	#378
Apprentice You're Fired Posts: 338	Beltre is freakin amazing! 4 homers in 2 days, including one off Smoltz. Beltre for MVP!!

08-21-2004, 04:59 AM	#379
Apprentice You're Fired Posts: 338	Who you guys got for manager of the year? My picks NL: Bobby Cox(Atlanta Braves) AL: Buck Showalter(Texas Rangers)

08-21-2004, 06:05 AM	#380
ct2k Triple A Posts: 48,551	I'm very undecided about manager of the year at the moment. With the Cy Young/Gold Glove/MVP i'm getting fairly set in my picks

08-21-2004, 02:51 PM	#381
The Miz Clutch Poster Posts: 11,997	My picks as of right now AL MVP: Vlad Guerrero NL MVP: Barry Bonds AL CY: Johan Santana NL CY: Jason Schmidt AL ROTY: Bobby Crosby NL ROTY: Khalil Greene AL MOTY: Buck Showalter NL MOTY: Jim Tracy

08-21-2004, 04:39 PM	#382
ct2k Triple A Posts: 48,551	Mine as of right now: AL MVP: Gary Sheffield NL MVP: Barry Bonds AL Cy Young: Johan Santana NL Cy Young: Jason Schmidt AL ROTY: Bobby Crosby undecided about the rest so far

08-21-2004, 06:09 PM	#385
CNM Posts: 2,540	My picks: AL MVP: Vladimir Guerrero NL MVP: Barry Bonds AL CY: Johan Santana NL CY: Jason Schmidt AL ROTY: Bobby Crosby NL ROTY: Matt Holliday AL MOTY: Buck Showalter NL MOTY: Bobby Cox

08-21-2004, 07:48 PM	#386
BCWWF The People's Member Posts: 18,092	AL MVP: A-Rod NL MVP: Bonds AL CY: Santana NL CY: Schmidt AL ROTY: Crosby (You're all lucky Lew and Morneau aren't eligable and Mauer was injured NL ROTY: No Idea? AL MOTY: Torre NL MOTY: Cox (underrated)

08-22-2004, 04:49 PM	#388
The Miz Clutch Poster Posts: 11,997	If Cox is so underrated life all of you guys are saying, don't you think he should have a little more to show for than 1 championship in 13 tries.

08-22-2004, 04:54 PM	#390
Apprentice You're Fired Posts: 338	Yea, I just think Cox has done an amazing job this year. He lost Maddux, Lopez and Sheffield and then made some great moves with Estrada, Drew and John Thompson??? He deserves a lot of credit when all the experts out there dismissed Atlanta as a 3rd place team at best in the east.

08-22-2004, 04:57 PM	#391
BCWWF The People's Member Posts: 18,092	I say he is underrated because of all the division titles, world series appearances, winning seasons etc. Maybe they only won the World Series once, but most of those times he probably wasn't coaching the better team, I don't think he is unable to manage a World Series champion. The way I look at it is that he has managed so many different teams so far when, this year especially, his team is not the most talented by far. I don't think he should have won MOY's every year, but as a whole I consider him a pretty good manager.

08-22-2004, 05:50 PM	#392
The Miz Clutch Poster Posts: 11,997	Well the 1999 Series the Braves were ridiculously better than the Yankees. Torre outmanaged him badly.

08-22-2004, 07:53 PM	#395
ct2k Triple A Posts: 48,551	The Braves are lucky guys like JD Drew and Johnny Estrada have had awesome seasons as much as they are for having Cox. He's done the same thing he's always done, which is a good job, this is hardly a crappy team he's got.

08-22-2004, 08:27 PM	#396
The Outlaw Unofficial Legend Posts: 11,931	They have a lot of solid players, but you can't say you didn't say they were going to suck this year. Everyone was saying J "DL" DRew (pure comedy right there) was going to bust and whatnot, but they've just played great together, and Chipper is FINALLY coming around. They don't really have a superstar, so I say Cox is doing a better job than he normally does (AKA what Miz referred to )

08-22-2004, 08:44 PM	#397
BCWWF The People's Member Posts: 18,092	The Braves don't have the most talented team in the NL East this year, at least in my opinion they don't, but this is why I think they are winning: My schools track team is a dynasty, we had won six straight state championships going into this year, but going into my senior year we clearly did not have the same talent on our team that we had in the years past. What happened, with good coaching and the motivation of not failing the guys before us, we pulled together and in the state meet we ended only four points behind a team much better than us (826 to 830, so four points is unbelievably close). I think that is the same thing with the Braves this year, they are the best team over the past 15 years, but then this year they suddenly lost a lot of their talent. In the beginning they were playing like they should have, a 500 team trailing Phily and Florida. Then, when everyone else knew they weren't as good and were glad that they wouldn't be going to the playoffs for the first time in forever, they had something to prove and the players started playing harder and harder, and now because of good coaching and the tradition that goes with them, they look to prove everyone wrong and make the playoffs again. If you have never been on a team like this, that may sound out there, but I guarantee you that their history is definately part of why they broke out. Its the same thing with teams like the Packers and the Yankees, you don't want to be the players on that team to lose, you are playing behind great tradition, and it really does help you win.

08-23-2004, 06:41 AM	#398
ct2k Triple A Posts: 48,551	Good point BCWWF. Mike Hampton and Chipper both finally coming around certainly hasn't hurt them either. I think with the Phillies it's down a good part to the disappointing pitching. As for the central, the Cubs and Astros just shouldn't be so far back with the talent they have, i don't care how good St Louis are.

08-25-2004, 06:09 AM	#399
Corkscrewed Posts: 18,357	Meanwhile, the Dodgers got back on the winning track by spanking the Expos and the Angels continue to win even when they do things the wrong way (like giving up 5 runs in five innings and stranding an army on the bases). Here's to a Freeway World Series (yes, I can dream).

08-25-2004, 01:00 PM	#400
Adder A.W.O.L. Posts: 5,862	Alexis Rios in Toronto, had he been given the chance to play all year, would be the AL ROY. Crosby is good too, but keep your eye on Rios in the future. [/Nostradamus]