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Old 05-17-2018, 05:00 PM   #1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
And in this is a problem:

* Lying about rape in the past does not mean you are lying about it now.
But when they have lied in the past and have no evidence now I would not believe them.
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Old 05-17-2018, 05:03 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Savio View Post
But when they have lied in the past and have no evidence now I would not believe them.
Cool.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:57 PM   #3
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If I can get one thing clear to anyone objective reading this, it's that it's not fun accusing someone of rape. It's not something easy or rewarding to do, and it doesn't come with a whole lot of benefits. So when someone tries to slip past the insinuation that "anyone can accuse anyone at anytime," do think about it for a second and think "but would they?"

Maybe they would? Maybe there's nothing to it? Okay. That person probably needs help more than they need ridicule though. But don't fall for that reduction of it to being a few words someone can shoot out without consequence.
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Old 05-17-2018, 05:01 PM   #4
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How are you not seeing the contradiction in using "Women tend to not lie about rape" as a meaningful point while also dismissing "This woman definitely lies about rape" as insignificant?

If the first is significant, then you'd have to do some crazy rationalization to claim the latter isn't. It's either that or neither is significant.
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Old 05-17-2018, 05:07 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
How are you not seeing the contradiction in using "Women tend to not lie about rape" as a meaningful point while also dismissing "This woman definitely lies about rape" as insignificant?

If the first is significant, then you'd have to do some crazy rationalization to claim the latter isn't. It's either that or neither is significant.
Lies and lied are two different tenses. If you're suggesting that because she lied about it once she must be again, that's false. If you're suggesting she lied about it once, therefore she has no moral qualms doing it, then it's a stronger point and problematic, but it doesn't do anything to dismiss the severity of a separate incident.

You all took The Boy Who Cried Wolf way too seriously. You do remember there was an actual wolf at the end, right? The moral is to not tell lies so people believe you, but it's also there to give us the wider perspective too, in that there might actually be a wolf.
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Old 05-17-2018, 05:13 PM   #6
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Jesus. Noid. Listen.

I'm not claiming she lied once therefore she must always be lying/is definitely lying. Stop and read what I'm saying.

You think "Women tend to not lie about rape" is a meaningful point. Because she's a woman making a rape accusation therefore you're comparing the likelihood of her lying to what typically ends up being the case when a woman makes a rape accusation.

Yet you're dismissing "She DOES lie about rape" (Not that she 100% must always be lying. That she indeed has been known to lie about rape.) as meaningless. That's a glaring contradiction. You want to give her the benefit of all other women who don't lie about rape but ignore the DIRECT example of HER... THE ONE WOMAN WHO IS ACTUALLY BEING DISCUSSED... lying about rape.

It's a contradiction. How is it not?
Last edited by #1-norm-fan; 05-17-2018 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 05-17-2018, 07:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Jesus. Noid. Listen.

I'm not claiming she lied once therefore she must always be lying/is definitely lying. Stop and read what I'm saying.

You think "Women tend to not lie about rape" is a meaningful point. Because she's a woman making a rape accusation therefore you're comparing the likelihood of her lying to what typically ends up being the case when a woman makes a rape accusation.

Yet you're dismissing "She DOES lie about rape" (Not that she 100% must always be lying. That she indeed has been known to lie about rape.) as meaningless. That's a glaring contradiction. You want to give her the benefit of all other women who don't lie about rape but ignore the DIRECT example of HER... THE ONE WOMAN WHO IS ACTUALLY BEING DISCUSSED... lying about rape.

It's a contradiction. How is it not?
Because people change, dude. You can't divide people into binary categories like "liars" and "truthtellers." It's a contradiction only if you're looking at her personality like a logic puzzle, which it is clearly not.

I agree that it makes it problematic, and that skepticism should be taken with this case (as has been done legally), but that doesn't mean you dismiss her outright.

To steer it back to what was originally being discussed: Dale is worried about Enzo's reputation. I am not, because I'm still suss on the whole thing. And I think that's why you won't find that the WWE won't welcome him back and you won't see any WWE contracted personnel publicly congratulating Enzo. I don't mean to appeal to authority, but I think that is really common sense in a situation like this. Enzo's rep is one of the lowest priorities in this for me.

That's all.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Because people change, dude. You can't divide people into binary categories like "liars" and "truthtellers." It's a contradiction only if you're looking at her personality like a logic puzzle, which it is clearly not.
What are you doing when you say "women tend not to lie about being raped"? You're assigning odds based on the history of accusers. Vic is assigning odds based on the history of her as an accuser. You're doing the same... exact... thing. Except Vic's example is actually much more pertinent to the case because it takes into account the exact woman we're talking about and not just women in general. You're rationalizing to keep believing what you're dead set on believing. The contradiction is clear as day though. Any argument you have to tear down Vic's quote can be used to tear down yours.
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Old 05-17-2018, 05:15 PM   #9
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If the fact that they are two different tenses has some kind of meaning, then your statistical analysis rhetoric is completely useless. Seeing as statistics are based off of prior incidents and this is a present incident...well that's 2 different tenses now isn't it?
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Old 05-17-2018, 07:20 PM   #10
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Absolutely nothing about this woman could change, and if they turned up more evidence and she would be just as valid a victim as anyone else. That's what's grossing me out about this. That they didn't turn up enough evidence is very good for a presumably innocent Enzo -- good for him -- but these comments about her character have nothing to do with the factual nature of the case. If something awful happened and there was evidence, she could remain exactly the same and it wouldn't make a difference. So why are we even discussing it?
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Old 05-17-2018, 07:39 PM   #11
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Old 05-17-2018, 07:40 PM   #12
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:38 PM   #13
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My lord. Can someone summarize the last 3 pages for me? So much to read.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:48 PM   #14
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My lord. Can someone summarize the last 3 pages for me? So much to read.
It's a 3page arguement over the sematics of the tense used in "has lied about rape" vs "does lie about rape", because Noid doesn't like Enzo Amore as a person / wrestler.

No headway's been made from either side so far.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:38 PM   #15
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Feels odd to see Meatballs debating anything too.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:52 PM   #16
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:09 PM   #17
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I hate Enzo and I'm glad he's gone the end
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:36 PM   #18
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I have a feeling Noid has lied about being raped a few times for attention
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:32 PM   #19
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Stepping back from this a little bit, I do understand the position those other guys have. You can look at her past behavior and decide she is unsavory. I don’t agree with this. Inherent in the argument is the reality that either someone was raped or someone is lying about being raped. I don’t feel comfortable calling someone a liar about that just because there isn’t enough evidence to put the other party away. It’s absolutely fucked, as Dale said a while back.

Smeat had the sense to stop banging his head against the wall a while ago, haha.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:50 PM   #20
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Police released their reasons why the case was dismissed via a recent statement from Enzo's accuser. Pretty much was a "he says, she says" type situation made worse because it became public.

Only hard evidence police had was both being in the same room during the timeline and sex occurring. They couldn't get enough details or evidence afterwards nor from others possibly involved that night.

There are no words to describe what this feels like... To know that my rapist is walking away from this, free of charges, and will continue to be a part of society today. I have said this many times, and I will say it again: I did this for sexual assault survivors/victims who did not/do not have the courage to speak up about their stories. For those who feared for their lives & knew that if they spoke up, they would be killed. For those who’s assailant was a family member. For those who were set up to be assaulted. No matter the differences in our stories, we are one in the same. I did this in hopes that by coming out about what happened to me on October 19, 2017 & the correct legal measures taken, that my story may end in a little bit of hope with my assailant being prosecuted. To my disbelief & complete misfortune, this did not happen. I was so mentally shaken up in every way possible after the night that it happened that i waited 4 days to report it to the police. Hence the DNA samples taken were 4 days old & would have had to survive a shower & regular visits to the bathroom. That is where I messed up in this process, but I don’t blame myself. I have been told that I did this for money, fame, out of spite, and to those that believe these things, all I can say is you are very wrong. I am a different person today. I used to have anxiety, but since the incident it has escalated to a much higher level. I have frequent panic attacks. I rarely can handle any interaction with men. I wake up most nights in a complete panic & have to use coping mechanisms to relieve the emotions. I have PTSD & it shows itself in a variation of ways. I’m married to a woman named Depression & she is my lover. People get jealous & frustrated because she gets all of me. Most days we just lay in bed & refuse to get up. She takes from the quality of my life & tonight she was begging me to self harm. I have been hiding from my phone all day, dodging the hate. But when I came home, it was overwhelming. I wanted nothing more than that release. My favorite coping mechanism is writing, so I decided to share an up-to-date side of my story. Eric Ardnt is not innocent, & I AM A SURVIVOR.

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Old 05-18-2018, 12:07 AM   #21
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I will continue to ask this question. Why is she releasing statements and not a lawyer. At no point has a lawyer released a statement on her behalf, and that is truely befuddling. If she is serious, why has she not had a lawyer represent her? I would love to know this answer. I want to know the name of the lawyer who is representing her. If there is no lawyer, than this is all bullshit.
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Old 05-18-2018, 12:49 AM   #22
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I will continue to ask this question. Why is she releasing statements and not a lawyer. At no point has a lawyer released a statement on her behalf, and that is truely befuddling. If she is serious, why has she not had a lawyer represent her? I would love to know this answer. I want to know the name of the lawyer who is representing her. If there is no lawyer, than this is all bullshit.
Unless its a very high profile case or incident (ex. Trump, Cosby, etc), i'd assume getting a lawyer at that stage isn't a common thing to do. It does make it a lot easier to attack the accuser's credibility and her actions didn't help at least in the public sphere.

Enzo needed one sooner than she did just because he had a lot more to lose if he spoke out publicly without legal advice. I'd also assume its easier to find lawyers willing to defend these cases than prosecute them prior to criminal charges being filed.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:38 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
Unless its a very high profile case or incident (ex. Trump, Cosby, etc), i'd assume getting a lawyer at that stage isn't a common thing to do. It does make it a lot easier to attack the accuser's credibility and her actions didn't help at least in the public sphere.

Enzo needed one sooner than she did just because he had a lot more to lose if he spoke out publicly without legal advice. I'd also assume its easier to find lawyers willing to defend these cases than prosecute them prior to criminal charges being filed.

This is a high profile case based on his earnings and potential earnings. Lawyers have been retained for much less.
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Old 05-18-2018, 12:12 AM   #24
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There is not one lawyer that would be letting her release her own statements right now. Not one. My guess... Lawyers took a look at this case ( bloodsuckers they are. ) and determined there was no case and they could not extract money out of Enzo. And yes. There is money to be extracted out of Enzo. Current money and future earnings can be extracted.

The fact that she's releasing her own statements are so damning in this entire thing.
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Old 05-18-2018, 12:16 AM   #25
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I'll go further on this.

I think Enzo is going to get hired back into the WWE. Not because they have to in any way. But because this whole thing is sounding like a joke. Did they have issues with Enzo before hand, sure. But this entire rape case seems like a sham. Does this woman even have a lawyer? It all makes zero sense. He looks completely innocent and he's done everything he should have which is keep his fucking mouth shut and let his lawyer do his job.

Case closed.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:39 AM   #26
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Enzo needed one sooner than she did just because he had a lot more to lose if he spoke out publicly without legal advice. I'd also assume its easier to find lawyers willing to defend these cases than prosecute them prior to criminal charges being filed.

You're wrong. There are no shortage of lawyers willing to prosecute a rape case against anyone that even sniffs fame.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:42 AM   #27
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Lawyers are considered bloodsuckers for a reason. They are like sharks in the water. If they smell blood, they swarm at it. This is a case that a lawyer should be swarming to take. Which leaves me with my original question. Who is her lawyer?
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Old 05-18-2018, 09:43 PM   #28
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Lawyers are considered bloodsuckers for a reason. They are like sharks in the water. If they smell blood, they swarm at it. This is a case that a lawyer should be swarming to take. Which leaves me with my original question. Who is her lawyer?
If lawyers are bloodsuckers, then why would they care if it were bullshit or not?
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:44 AM   #29
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If she dont have a lawyer, something is seriously wrong here. If she does and that lawyer is letting her release her own statements, which appears to be the case, that lawyer is the worst lawyer of all time.
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Old 05-18-2018, 09:11 AM   #30
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If she dont have a lawyer, something is seriously wrong here. If she does and that lawyer is letting her release her own statements, which appears to be the case, that lawyer is the worst lawyer of all time.
You realize she would be represented by the DA? Why would she pay for a lawyer? Unless she was going to civil court paying for a lawyer is a waste of money.

Do you think 99% of people reporting crimes should not he taken seriously because they dont have a lawyer?
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Old 05-18-2018, 02:05 PM   #31
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You realize she would be represented by the DA? Why would she pay for a lawyer? Unless she was going to civil court paying for a lawyer is a waste of money.

Do you think 99% of people reporting crimes should not he taken seriously because they dont have a lawyer?
Yes i do. If you're not going for the money, you're dumb.
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Old 05-18-2018, 03:27 PM   #32
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You realize she would be represented by the DA? Why would she pay for a lawyer? Unless she was going to civil court paying for a lawyer is a waste of money.

Do you think 99% of people reporting crimes should not he taken seriously because they dont have a lawyer?
She's most likely not be represented because as far as I can see, no charges have been filed. But even is she was, what competent DA in this country would allow her to release her own statements?

None.
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Old 05-18-2018, 04:26 PM   #33
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She's most likely not be represented because as far as I can see, no charges have been filed. But even is she was, what competent DA in this country would allow her to release her own statements?

None.
1. District and state attorneys don't represent criminal victims personally (they represent all the citizens of the state or district) and so cannot give legal advice to individuals, let alone control their conduct, regardless if they're criminal victims.

2. No attorney, whether they're representing a client personally in a civil or criminal matter, can control the conduct of their clients. Under the rules of professional conduct an attorney can only inform clients as to the likely consequences of certain conduct and advise for or against the client choosing to take certain actions or engage in certain conduct.

In this case, if she had one, the only thing this woman's attorney could do is inform her of the likely consequences of her releasing any statements, offer to write (or at least assist in writing, and releasing) a statement on her behalf, advise her as to whether or not she should release a statement, inform her that if she chose to ignore said advice, the attorney may choose to terminate the attorney-client relationship, and finally, if she did ignore the advice, the attorney could then actually take action to terminate the attorney-client relationship.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:49 AM   #34
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There should be lawyers coming out of the fucking woodworks to take this case if they think it's legit.


I dont think they thought it was legit.
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Old 05-19-2018, 07:52 PM   #35
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There should be lawyers coming out of the fucking woodworks to take this case if they think it's legit.


I dont think they thought it was legit.
I think they are right, I didn't think it was legit either. Took 1 day for her friend to share that she was in a group text bragging about it.

Plus she already has told some big lies like when she lied about being pregnant.

As the old saying goes, don't cry wolf. Also don't brag about banging somebody then come out later and say it was not consensual.
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Old 05-18-2018, 04:26 AM   #36
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Given that it is a he said/she said scenario, I don’t think many would think it winnable right now.
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Old 05-18-2018, 10:05 AM   #37
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Woman makes false rape/sexual assault accusations against 15 people

Statistically it's unlikely she is lying.
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Old 05-18-2018, 10:39 AM   #38
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The stats don't lie, Savio.
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Old 05-18-2018, 10:45 AM   #39
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Old 05-18-2018, 10:50 AM   #40
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And I do agree, of course statistically woman would not lie about rape. Why? Because lying about rape is fucking insane.

But statistically, Philomena HAS lied about rape and being pregnant, so statistically she herself is more likely to lie about rape.

Mind you, like Fan even pointed it out it certainly doesn't 100% mean she is lying. But compound it with a lack of evidence and a bunch of other funky shit that went down (ie. her former friend being like 'you did not get raped') the whole thing was fishy to begin with. She is obviously dealing with some kind of mental illness so hopefully she gets the help she needs.
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