Official Raw 8/16 Thread - Page 11

**RemyRed** · 08-17-2004, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted By Mayo
Benoit just lost his title last night, jackass. He will probably face Batista at the PPV, and I see it more as a way to cement Batista's status to the upper midcard rather than to bring Benoit back to midcard hell. Guerrero just faced Kurt Angle, and they are both definitely main eventers. Just because someone is not in possession of the title or fighting for it doesn't mean they are midcarders.

After that squash match that Guererro had against Angle, there really is no one left for him to fight, he'll be feuding with Rene Dupree this month. Batista into the upper-card may be the intention, but there's no way he'll get over enough, the result will be Benoit getting dragged down.

**Volchok** · 08-17-2004, 12:52 AM

i was atleast hoping for Batista to go with Orton.. but thats to much for WWE to do.. or they should have had Jericho come out.. but that would have screwd everything up... damn nothing can work out

**Loose Cannon** · 08-17-2004, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EcKo 03 ComPlEX

i was atleast hoping for Batista to go with Orton.. but thats to much for WWE to do.. or they should have had Jericho come out.. but that would have screwd everything up... damn nothing can work out

yea, I was really hoping Batista would go w/ him. He still might though a little later.

**Loose Cannon** · 08-17-2004, 12:52 AM

Maybe they do something where they Strip him of the Title so he doesn't have to lose it. Can't believe I'm saying that cause I hate those angles, but it will protect him.

**Volchok** · 08-17-2004, 12:53 AM

lol dont worry LC everything will work out fine... i hope..

**Boondock Saint** · 08-17-2004, 12:55 AM

I see what you're all saying. And I do hope Orton's reign lasts past Unforgiven and something good happens with Benoit.

But aside from that, I am glad this turn happened tonight. If they dragged it out, for me anyway, it would have been boring as hell because we knew this was going to happen at some point so dragging it out would just get annoying. But that's just me.

The celebration actually went longer than I thought so for a bit I didn't think it was going to happen, but as soon as HHH gave Randy the thumbs up, I knew what was coming.

Oh well, whatever. Lets see how this plays out.

**Volchok** · 08-17-2004, 12:56 AM

btw if i bring up some random thing from tonight im watching Raw over...

**Volchok** · 08-17-2004, 12:59 AM

o LC did you get my pm? j/w

**Loose Cannon** · 08-17-2004, 01:04 AM

You know the more I think about the turn, the more it makes sense in a real world kind of setting. WHY would HHH wait to turn on Orton? He's pissed and he wants to kill him for stealing the spotlight. Why would he wait fot? If you look at it like that, it seems to make sense. Like I can see HHH/Flair/Batista like plotting shit behind Orton's back before he won the Title. I know that never aired, but I can see stuff like that.

Again, I thought it was rushed, but if you look at it from a "real world" perspsective, it kind of makes sense

**The CyNick** · 08-17-2004, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon

You know the more I think about the turn, the more it makes sense in a real world kind of setting. WHY would HHH wait to turn on Orton? He's pissed and he wants to kill him for stealing the spotlight. Why would he wait fot? If you look at it like that, it seems to make sense. Like I can see HHH/Flair/Batista like plotting shit behind Orton's back before he won the Title. I know that never aired, but I can see stuff like that.

Again, I thought it was rushed, but if you look at it from a "real world" perspsective, it kind of makes sense

Okay but first things first, this is wrestling, creating stars should be their main concern, last night I believe they took some steps backwards with ol Randy.

Second things second, you could also say it would make sense for HHH to make it seem like he's friends with Orton, let Orton get beat up for several months defending the title, and then after Orton has been weakened HHH can stick the knife in his back and take the title from him.

But I dont think anyone would say the way they did the angle doesn't make sense, but in terms of booking it did nothing for Orton and may have done a lot of damage to his ability to get over as a face.

**Splaya** · 08-17-2004, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The CyNick

Okay but first things first, this is wrestling, creating stars should be their main concern, last night I believe they took some steps backwards with ol Randy.

Second things second, you could also say it would make sense for HHH to make it seem like he's friends with Orton, let Orton get beat up for several months defending the title, and then after Orton has been weakened HHH can stick the knife in his back and take the title from him.

But I dont think anyone would say the way they did the angle doesn't make sense, but in terms of booking it did nothing for Orton and may have done a lot of damage to his ability to get over as a face.

But the big question Cynick is, whether they ruin his face turn or his character in general, would you still cheer for him as a main eventer that he is now?

**The CyNick** · 08-17-2004, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splaya

But the big question Cynick is, whether they ruin his face turn or his character in general, would you still cheer for him as a main eventer that he is now?

I mean I like him because he plays a cocky arrogant heel and he beats everyone. But if he goes baby, he's going to have to play to the crowd and he'll lose that arrogance. So I dont really know what to expect, I kinda expect him to become very bland as a babyface.

If you look at a guy like Cena, who a lot of people felt was turned too early, at leats his gimmick is such that he can come out do a rap on a guy, throw a jersey in the crowd, yell "The Champ is here" and the fans will go nuts. I dont see what Orton has that will get people to go crazy for him. Whats he going to say "I'm better than you, now cheer me"? Or how about "Ive done more at the age of 24 than all of you combined". I just dont see where his pops will come from. I think they are basing his face turn on some heelish crowds and the fact that people hate HHH. But look at Edge, he tried ot do the "evolution I'm coming for you" speech and fans dont give two shits about him.

Like I said, we'll see, maybe the fans are dying to cheer for him, but even when he came out on RAW, I dont think he got the kind of reaction that would make me think he's going to be a forsure thing as a babyface, especially this soon.

**Loose Cannon** · 08-17-2004, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The CyNick

Okay but first things first, this is wrestling, creating stars should be their main concern, last night I believe they took some steps backwards with ol Randy.

Second things second, you could also say it would make sense for HHH to make it seem like he's friends with Orton, let Orton get beat up for several months defending the title, and then after Orton has been weakened HHH can stick the knife in his back and take the title from him.

But I dont think anyone would say the way they did the angle doesn't make sense, but in terms of booking it did nothing for Orton and may have done a lot of damage to his ability to get over as a face.

Yeah, your second point made a lot of sense. That's good booking right there. I was just trying to play Devil's Advocate.

What if they do this though. Say Orton vs HHH at Unforgiven or Survivor Series. A huge Screwjob would happen (YEAH...AGAIN) and HHH wins it.

Orton wins the Rumble and goes on to face HHH at Mania and wins it back. They just need to keep him from doing a Huge Job to HHH where he doesn't look like a joke.

**The CyNick** · 08-17-2004, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon

Yeah, your second point made a lot of sense. That's good booking right there. I was just trying to play Devil's Advocate.

What if they do this though. Say Orton vs HHH at Unforgiven or Survivor Series. A huge Screwjob would happen (YEAH...AGAIN) and HHH wins it.

Orton wins the Rumble and goes on to face HHH at Mania and wins it back. They just need to keep him from doing a Huge Job to HHH where he doesn't look like a joke.

No doubt, thats probably how it will go down, and it makes sense from a booking standpoint.

But in order for that to work, the fans have to be behind Orton like they were for guys like Rock, Austin and so on, back in the day. I dont see how that will happen, why would fans cheer for Orton after he told them they all suck?

I see this kinda like the Brock deal in 2002. Brock was a rising star, and won the title as a heel, but got cheered for the win. The WWE looked at this and figured "hey we gotta turn Brock". They did that, and I think most would agree it was too soon, the fans weren't really behind him like the past top babys, and the build for Brock to get the title back wasn't all that hot (I mean look at the Mania buyrate that year). The one good thing they did with Brock was that they had Taker put him over in a major match, which was something few people got to do. Then they did the respect deal and from then on, Brock started to act like a face. The difference with this is that Orton could have built off the respect thing he did with Benoit, but instead he reversed it and went back to being a heel. Now he comes off getting pummeled, and I dont think in 2004 thats enough to become a huge babyface.

**Loose Cannon** · 08-17-2004, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The CyNick

No doubt, thats probably how it will go down, and it makes sense from a booking standpoint.

But in order for that to work, the fans have to be behind Orton like they were for guys like Rock, Austin and so on, back in the day. I dont see how that will happen, why would fans cheer for Orton after he told them they all suck?

I see this kinda like the Brock deal in 2002. Brock was a rising star, and won the title as a heel, but got cheered for the win. The WWE looked at this and figured "hey we gotta turn Brock". They did that, and I think most would agree it was too soon, the fans weren't really behind him like the past top babys, and the build for Brock to get the title back wasn't all that hot (I mean look at the Mania buyrate that year). The one good thing they did with Brock was that they had Taker put him over in a major match, which was something few people got to do. Then they did the respect deal and from then on, Brock started to act like a face. The difference with this is that Orton could have built off the respect thing he did with Benoit, but instead he reversed it and went back to being a heel. Now he comes off getting pummeled, and I dont think in 2004 thats enough to become a huge babyface.

I forget the saying. But it's like "people only remember the last thing" or something like that. Yea, totally botched it. But, I think the fans will forget about what Orton said in the begginning of Raw. They will feel sorry for him because he didn't even see the attack coming. They will sympathize for the fact that he was a sitting duck and didn't even know it. They will remember the image of him bleeding in the middle of the ring at the hands of Evolution. The tweener thing will help him though because he can act like Austin and say he never asked for the fans support.

**Sensei Of Mattitude** · 08-17-2004, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The CyNick

Okay but first things first, this is wrestling, creating stars should be their main concern, last night I believe they took some steps backwards with ol Randy.

HOW CAN THE WWE (mainly RAW) CREATE STARS WHEN HHH JUST BURIES ALL OF THE THEME!

**The CyNick** · 08-17-2004, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Of Mattitude

HOW CAN THE WWE (mainly RAW) CREATE STARS WHEN HHH JUST BURIES ALL OF THE THEME!

I actually thought Randy would get under the radar because he's apparently tight with HHH, but I guess not tight enough.

**Sensei Of Mattitude** · 08-17-2004, 01:07 AM

Benoit has gotten severly DICKED OVER. There really is nothing for him to do now on RAW. I would love for Benoit to go back to Smackdown (where I wanted him to stay)

Benoit/Eddie
Benoit/Taker (has Taker ever tapped out? I remember they said he didnt back in 2000 when he fought Shamrock at Backlash)
Benoit/Cena
Benoit/Booker (oh those WCW days)

etc
etc

**The CyNick** · 08-17-2004, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Of Mattitude

Benoit has gotten severly DICKED OVER. There really is nothing for him to do now on RAW. I would love for Benoit to go back to Smackdown (where I wanted him to stay)

Benoit/Eddie
Benoit/Taker (has Taker ever tapped out? I remember they said he didnt back in 2000 when he fought Shamrock at Backlash)
Benoit/Cena
Benoit/Booker (oh those WCW days)

etc
etc

I was saying that before, after he programs with Batista, and likely does a TV JOB for Hunter, whats left for him?

**Herb Masta** · 08-17-2004, 01:15 AM

fuuuuck man.. orton. thats harsh what they did, but damn.

**RemyRed** · 08-17-2004, 01:19 AM

Maybe he isn't going to be a face.

**Loose Cannon** · 08-17-2004, 01:25 AM

But SADLY, once Orton starts getting pop with the fans, I will start to not like him anymore. I'll have to pick a new guy soon. Happens all the time. Just happened with Cena.

**Mayo** · 08-17-2004, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon

But SADLY, once Orton starts getting pop with the fans, I will start to not like him anymore. I'll have to pick a new guy soon. Happens all the time. Just happened with Cena.

Just start cheering for Virgil... I mean Orlando Jordan

**Loose Cannon** · 08-17-2004, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayo

Just start cheering for Virgil... I mean Orlando Jordan

He's not going anywhere. I think Johnny Nitro is my next favorite guy. Even though he's not going anywhere soon.

**Sensei Of Mattitude** · 08-17-2004, 01:25 AM

Heel Orton > Face Orton

HollyRock > The Rock

RANDY ORTON is meant to be the cocky heel. Thats what brought him to the table, thats why we love him. Why change that?

Heel Orton vs the following:

HBK
Benoit (again)
Jericho
Edge (the man that beat him for the IC Title)
Eugene
Regal
Triple H (both heels, remember HHH/Angle Rumble 01, both heels)

Im disappointed.... but

ORTON STILL RULES

**The CyNick** · 08-17-2004, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Of Mattitude

Heel Orton > Face Orton

HollyRock > The Rock

RANDY ORTON is meant to be the cocky heel. Thats what brought him to the table, thats why we love him. Why change that?

Heel Orton vs the following:

HBK
Benoit (again)
Jericho
Edge (the man that beat him for the IC Title)
Eugene
Regal
Triple H (both heels, remember HHH/Angle Rumble 01, both heels)

Im disappointed.... but

ORTON STILL RULES

This is exactly why I was saying they should have kept Orton heel, at the very least until SurvSer. And actually, I would have kept Orton heel all the way to Mania.

**Dorkchop** · 08-17-2004, 01:33 AM

I enjoyed Raw a lot. Why is it that Molly Holly get's better looking every tmie she's on TV?

**Sensei Of Mattitude** · 08-17-2004, 01:40 AM

i wanted Orton to stay heel too

**FourFifty** · 08-17-2004, 01:41 AM

Well, a shade over 1/4 way though on the west coast... OH MY GOD! THAT SLAP FROM VICTORIA HAD TO STING! Total mark Out Moment!

**Sensei Of Mattitude** · 08-17-2004, 01:43 AM

how about a turn where Orton has Flair and Batista turn on HHH and say "fuck off", Im the World Champion.... I Run the Show!

HHH turns face and battles the cocky heel Orton who continuely wins with help from Evolution (now with Edge).

**The CyNick** · 08-17-2004, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Of Mattitude

how about a turn where Orton has Flair and Batista turn on HHH and say "fuck off", Im the World Champion.... I Run the Show!

HHH turns face and battles the cocky heel Orton who continuely wins with help from Evolution (now with Edge).

Yeah but then Orton looks like a dumbass for taking a beatdown from Evo and then saying "Thank you sir, may I have another?"

I think that should have been the angle before last night. I would have had Orton act even cockier, start to separate himself from Evo (I suggested a helicopter spot that would have ruled), show him living the good life. Eventually Orton gets Evo to turn on HHH syaing he's been holding them back and Evo is all about the gold, and since HHH couldn't get the job done, he's been booted.

The way it is now, Evo looks like puppets for HHH. I mean why does Batista of Flair care if Orton is champ instead of HHH?

**Sensei Of Mattitude** · 08-17-2004, 01:46 AM

Diva Search Girls in order of awesomeness:

1) Christy (ENERGY!... has the tits, the face and definitely the personality)

2) Marie (unique tits, i like them, banging face)

3) Joy (TITS, personality is showing thru now)

the other 3 suck. i hate Carmella, she was standing out there tonight like she owned the place. f that. shes a ringer and that sucks.

**Sensei Of Mattitude** · 08-17-2004, 01:48 AM

my main question is

WHAT IS ORTON GOING TO DO FOR RING MUSIC NOW?
The Evolution Theme FIT HIM SO WELL.

**Loose Cannon** · 08-17-2004, 01:52 AM

They'll probably just remix it.

**Dorkchop** · 08-17-2004, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon

They'll probably just remix it.

Evolution isn't a mystery...

**Volchok** · 08-17-2004, 01:54 AM

BTW if you havent voted for a Diva.. Vote Amy...

**RemyRed** · 08-17-2004, 02:30 AM

From all these posts I can already tell Shelton Benjamin is forgotten, and most likely will never get a major push because of it. I thought Benjamin would be in Evolution for Randy Orton, but now I'm thinkin it'll just stay as Batista, Flair, and God.

**CosaNostra** · 08-17-2004, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon

No way. Mark Jindrack, Garrison Cade, Maven? Hell no.. I'd go with HBK or Edge.

Say they bring HBK into the fold. Who leads the faction then? It would be interesting to see HBK accept HHH's leadership

**Pegasus Crawford** · 08-17-2004, 07:06 AM

Haha. I'm sure the majority of us saw the turn coming. Sucks for Benoit.

But I let myself enjoy the moment anyway.

**Azriel** · 08-17-2004, 04:10 PM

I'm certain they might add a new member of Evolution, Edge would definitely be the best bet, because in many respects Evolution is the neo-Horsemen.

And LC, I would be so hurt if you abandoned Orton now, especially since you were responsible for turning a lot of us over to the Orton side. I guess then I'd have to take over as the Orton mark.

08-17-2004, 12:52 AM	#2
Volchok L.G. Fuad Posts: 4,834	i was atleast hoping for Batista to go with Orton.. but thats to much for WWE to do.. or they should have had Jericho come out.. but that would have screwd everything up... damn nothing can work out

08-17-2004, 12:52 AM	#4
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	Maybe they do something where they Strip him of the Title so he doesn't have to lose it. Can't believe I'm saying that cause I hate those angles, but it will protect him.

08-17-2004, 12:53 AM	#5
Volchok L.G. Fuad Posts: 4,834	lol dont worry LC everything will work out fine... i hope..

08-17-2004, 12:55 AM	#6
Boondock Saint Posts: 8,795	I see what you're all saying. And I do hope Orton's reign lasts past Unforgiven and something good happens with Benoit. But aside from that, I am glad this turn happened tonight. If they dragged it out, for me anyway, it would have been boring as hell because we knew this was going to happen at some point so dragging it out would just get annoying. But that's just me. The celebration actually went longer than I thought so for a bit I didn't think it was going to happen, but as soon as HHH gave Randy the thumbs up, I knew what was coming. Oh well, whatever. Lets see how this plays out.

08-17-2004, 12:56 AM	#7
Volchok L.G. Fuad Posts: 4,834	btw if i bring up some random thing from tonight im watching Raw over...

08-17-2004, 12:59 AM	#8
Volchok L.G. Fuad Posts: 4,834	o LC did you get my pm? j/w

08-17-2004, 01:04 AM	#9
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	You know the more I think about the turn, the more it makes sense in a real world kind of setting. WHY would HHH wait to turn on Orton? He's pissed and he wants to kill him for stealing the spotlight. Why would he wait fot? If you look at it like that, it seems to make sense. Like I can see HHH/Flair/Batista like plotting shit behind Orton's back before he won the Title. I know that never aired, but I can see stuff like that. Again, I thought it was rushed, but if you look at it from a "real world" perspsective, it kind of makes sense

08-17-2004, 01:07 AM	#18
Sensei Of Mattitude I'd Do It For the Story Posts: 491	Benoit has gotten severly DICKED OVER. There really is nothing for him to do now on RAW. I would love for Benoit to go back to Smackdown (where I wanted him to stay) Benoit/Eddie Benoit/Taker (has Taker ever tapped out? I remember they said he didnt back in 2000 when he fought Shamrock at Backlash) Benoit/Cena Benoit/Booker (oh those WCW days) etc etc

08-17-2004, 01:15 AM	#20
Herb Masta HERBY RED EYEZ (stoned) Posts: 162	fuuuuck man.. orton. thats harsh what they did, but damn.

08-17-2004, 01:19 AM	#21
RemyRed My Opinion Matters Posts: 2,435	Maybe he isn't going to be a face.

08-17-2004, 01:25 AM	#22
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	But SADLY, once Orton starts getting pop with the fans, I will start to not like him anymore. I'll have to pick a new guy soon. Happens all the time. Just happened with Cena.

08-17-2004, 01:33 AM	#27
Dorkchop facebook.com/bloquemen Posts: 5,452	I enjoyed Raw a lot. Why is it that Molly Holly get's better looking every tmie she's on TV?

08-17-2004, 01:40 AM	#28
Sensei Of Mattitude I'd Do It For the Story Posts: 491	i wanted Orton to stay heel too

08-17-2004, 01:41 AM	#29
FourFifty As over as Crystal Pepsi Posts: 21,639	Well, a shade over 1/4 way though on the west coast... OH MY GOD! THAT SLAP FROM VICTORIA HAD TO STING! Total mark Out Moment!

08-17-2004, 01:43 AM	#30
Sensei Of Mattitude I'd Do It For the Story Posts: 491	how about a turn where Orton has Flair and Batista turn on HHH and say "fuck off", Im the World Champion.... I Run the Show! HHH turns face and battles the cocky heel Orton who continuely wins with help from Evolution (now with Edge).

08-17-2004, 01:46 AM	#32
Sensei Of Mattitude I'd Do It For the Story Posts: 491	Diva Search Girls in order of awesomeness: 1) Christy (ENERGY!... has the tits, the face and definitely the personality) 2) Marie (unique tits, i like them, banging face) 3) Joy (TITS, personality is showing thru now) the other 3 suck. i hate Carmella, she was standing out there tonight like she owned the place. f that. shes a ringer and that sucks.

08-17-2004, 01:48 AM	#33
Sensei Of Mattitude I'd Do It For the Story Posts: 491	my main question is WHAT IS ORTON GOING TO DO FOR RING MUSIC NOW? The Evolution Theme FIT HIM SO WELL.

08-17-2004, 01:52 AM	#34
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	They'll probably just remix it.

08-17-2004, 01:54 AM	#36
Volchok L.G. Fuad Posts: 4,834	BTW if you havent voted for a Diva.. Vote Amy...

08-17-2004, 02:30 AM	#37
RemyRed My Opinion Matters Posts: 2,435	From all these posts I can already tell Shelton Benjamin is forgotten, and most likely will never get a major push because of it. I thought Benjamin would be in Evolution for Randy Orton, but now I'm thinkin it'll just stay as Batista, Flair, and God.

08-17-2004, 07:06 AM	#39
Pegasus Crawford Damn me and my charisma Posts: 1,273	Haha. I'm sure the majority of us saw the turn coming. Sucks for Benoit. But I let myself enjoy the moment anyway.

08-17-2004, 04:10 PM	#40
Azriel The Caption Crippler Posts: 8,855	I'm certain they might add a new member of Evolution, Edge would definitely be the best bet, because in many respects Evolution is the neo-Horsemen. And LC, I would be so hurt if you abandoned Orton now, especially since you were responsible for turning a lot of us over to the Orton side. I guess then I'd have to take over as the Orton mark.