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Old 06-11-2013, 05:47 PM   #45361
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Makes sense
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Old 06-11-2013, 05:50 PM   #45362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Iron Man matches are really a shitty idea if you think about it.
I agree. Much more exciting to just have a match that goes exceedingly long. Hard to do that on a PPV, though, because you'd just be like "Uhhh.... so there are not a whole lot of matches booked for this show"
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:06 PM   #45363
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:11 PM   #45364
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WWE is also selling these



Which I must now buy and wear to all the clubs. I'll get all the chicks.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:36 PM   #45365
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:37 PM   #45366
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For some reason, I can totally see CM Punk wearing that Rick Rude t-shirt to the ring at Payback.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:38 PM   #45367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Iron Man matches are really a shitty idea if you think about it.
I don't think so. Not in the right context. Two men with such an intense rivalry want to prove their dominance over each other through endurance and possibly multiple victories. I think having them willy-nilly is insane.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:39 PM   #45368
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Cody Rhodes should get his own version of the Rick Rude t-shirt made.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:42 PM   #45369
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You know no one's gonna blow someone out. It's gonna end either tied or with a 1 point win. Which makes the first 58 minutes of the match basically meaningless.

Not to mention the fact that I hate the idea of 6-5 iron man matches where two guys are getting pinned a shitload of times in one night. I think major stars getting pinned should be a huge deal. I fucking hate how normal it is nowadays. 11 times in one night is a quick way to just make it more nauseating.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:45 PM   #45370
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Unless that 58 minutes is made up of good wrestling and cool spots.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:46 PM   #45371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
For some reason, I can totally see CM Punk wearing that Rick Rude t-shirt to the ring at Payback.
Whilst I stand by my affirmation that CM Punk won't even show up at Payback.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:48 PM   #45372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan View Post
Unless that 58 minutes is made up of good wrestling and cool spots.
That's fine but it's ultimately all for nothing. We know exactly where things are gonna stand in 58 minutes at the beginning of the match.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:48 PM   #45373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lock Jaw View Post
Whilst I stand by my affirmation that CM Punk won't even show up at Payback.
I think he'll show but I don't think he'll wrestle (based on my wide varying knowledge of all of the current angles. By wide and varying I mean not very much at all)
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:49 PM   #45374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
That's fine but it's ultimately all for nothing. We know exactly where things are gonna stand in 58 minutes at the beginning of the match.
suspension of disbelief
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:53 PM   #45375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
suspension of disbelief
I don't know where that comes into play. I'm not saying I don't like it because it's unrealistic. I'm saying I don't like it because the booking possibilities are pretty thin. The journey can be awesome. But in that case, like Lock Jaw said, it's better to just have a basic match that could end at any moment.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:02 PM   #45376
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I don't know, I think there are many different stories to tell in an Iron Man Match. The heel can get himself disqualified on purpose injuring his opponent and then putting him in excruciating submission holds. The babyface can refuse to tap, putting pressure on the heel who sees the clock ticking down. The face can then make a huge comeback and perhaps even roll up the heel to go 2-0 just after half-way through the match. The heel then gets super-vicious and applies a malicious hold on and the babyface has to tap. The drama is coming from the safety of the face, and whether or not they can protect their lead.

There can be stories where the heel cheats their way up front early and then the face has to make a heroic comeback. There could be the story you mentioned of neither guy going down. Maybe they even battle too long outside and a countout is issue against both men. They go up 1-1, but are still neck and neck. Another can roll-up another and that's 2-1. Then they can both pin each other of a superplex 3-2. They look evenly matched, but one star has got the advantage over the other. At the end, the second guy manages to make a comeback and score a pinfall of his own with maybe ten minutes remaining. There's that last window for them to get one more fall and win the match.

You don't need to have either extreme of lots of falls or no falls. The falls just need to make sense and tell a story.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:02 PM   #45377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
I don't know where that comes into play. I'm not saying I don't like it because it's unrealistic. I'm saying I don't like it because the booking possibilities are pretty thin. The journey can be awesome. But in that case, like Lock Jaw said, it's better to just have a basic match that could end at any moment.
it comes into play when you say "we know exactly where things are gonna stand in 58 minutes". The booking possibilities aren't really thin. If that's the case then that pretty much applies for all matches (they certainly can't "end at any moment") you know for the most part when the finish in most matches is coming, only difference with iron man matches is that there's a countdown to the end of the time limit, the finish still usually takes place at some point during the final minute (aka the equivalent of going home in a normal match) as opposed to bang on the limit
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:05 PM   #45378
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What CSL said. You always know a tag match is going to feature a babyface getting beaten down by the bad guys before he gets an opportunity to tag in his partner who beats up both the bad guys for a couple of minutes before things move towards a finish.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:14 PM   #45379
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How about an Iron Man Match where the heel has dominated the feud, remained champion and been such a vicious and arrogant tormentor to the babyface, who no one really gives a chance to win. The heel starts the match off strong and vicious. They almost seem to toy with the babyface -- "pacing himself," as the commentators would point out. The babyface, about twenty minutes in, manages to score a fluke roll-up and the announcers shit themselves. This heel has been such a dominant champion and he just got pinned! If this were any other match, the babyface would be champion. "It's not, though, it's an Iron Man Match. Bad guy is going to get back in control, you see" -- heel commentator.

The heel dominates some more and looks for a big move off the top to put babyface down. The babyface manages to knock them off the top rope, however. A missile dropkick is hit by babyface, knocking heel down. They get off their back onto their hands and knees, but an Oklahoma roll later and the babyface is up 2-0. Keep in mind, this heel has never even come close to losing his title like this. He applies a signature submission hold, but the babyface gets to the ropes. The heel celebrates because the face must have submitted, but the referee informs him that no such thing happened. The heel is frustrated and pushes the referee. "That was a submission!" "Don't you push me, I'm the ref!" The ref then says something to the ring announcer and timekeeper. The heel has been disqualified, the score now stands at 3-0. The heel is amazingly frustrated at this point, and knocks the referee out with a hard right. The heel seizes this moment and grabs the ring bell and clocks babyface in the face with it. Another referee runs down to the ring, but the babyface kicks out at two!

You see where this is going -- a dominant heel champion thinks an Iron Man Match is going to allow him to beat and humiliate his opponent, but the opposite actually happens. The babyface's skill, resilience, heart, and the heel's own fiendish nature all play in favor of justice that night, and the babyface takes an amazing clean-sweeping victory over a heel that has been nothing but dominant. It'd be a shocking upset for the ages, and wouldn't just be a heel putting a babyface over in a shocking way, but in a shocking way that makes the face look legendary.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:15 PM   #45380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
it comes into play when you say "we know exactly where things are gonna stand in 58 minutes". The booking possibilities aren't really thin. If that's the case then that pretty much applies for all matches (they certainly can't "end at any moment") you know for the most part when the finish in most matches is coming, only difference with iron man matches is that there's a countdown to the end of the time limit, the finish still usually takes place at some point during the final minute (aka the equivalent of going home in a normal match) as opposed to bang on the limit
The story during the match can go a few places but it's a story we know is leading to the final minute or so of the 60 minutes being the deciding fall. Kinda makes you think "Who gives a shit?" when it comes to the rest of it.

And obviously I wasn't being literal when I said it "can end at any moment". Obviously Steamboat-Flair or HBK-Taker or Punk-Cena isn't gonna end 3 minutes in. There's still some build. But it's building toward a climax that, once it hits that peak, could end out of the blue.

Say you've got a CM Punk vs John Cena iron man match. It's 20 minutes in and the pace is picking up. Who cares? You can turn away for 35 minutes and you know when you turn back, you'll be seeing them going at it for 5 more minutes with someone trying to get the deciding fall.

Now say it's a regular match. There's no way you're gonna turn away at that 20 minute mark. The finish could come at any point. It could even still come 40 minutes from now. But you'll keep watching. And they'll keep you on the edge of your seat with a ton of false finishes which just aren't really possible in an iron man match until the end.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:19 PM   #45381
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Like I said, there are stories you can tell in an iron man match. They can be fine. Hell, the WrestleMania XII iron man match is one of my favorites ever. But the drama is limited and especially it today's wrestling I'd prefer they just lay off the gimmick.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:22 PM   #45382
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How about a babyface that has chased the title for so long, but in the middle of the match suffers an injury. The referee stops the clock and even Vince McMahon comes out to check on the face. "There's still twenty minutes left, it's too risky." The babyface knows that this is their only chance at the title, they've got an advantage (or they are at least tied), but if the match ends now they won't be champion. Imagine if a heel got disqualified and caused that injury on purpose, because they know if the face forfeits, their advantage means shit.

You can walk away from that, but if you miss that little detail, you've missed a great dramatic event and a future champion's choice to press on and fight for their dream. You've missed a villain being so manipulative and heinous to try and keep their title. They will show replays and such, but it's not the same as seeing it unfold.

I'm not saying there should be Iron Man Matches all the time -- but two wrestlers could definitely tell an absolutely amazing story with the match format.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:24 PM   #45383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Like I said, there are stories you can tell in an iron man match. They can be fine. Hell, the WrestleMania XII iron man match is one of my favorites ever. But the drama is limited and especially it today's wrestling I'd prefer they just lay off the gimmick.
Oh, they shouldn't happen all the time. You need two very special performers to make them work. But when was the last time we saw a proper one?
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:26 PM   #45384
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
The story during the match can go a few places but it's a story we know is leading to the final minute or so of the 60 minutes being the deciding fall. Kinda makes you think "Who gives a shit?" when it comes to the rest of it.

And obviously I wasn't being literal when I said it "can end at any moment". Obviously Steamboat-Flair or HBK-Taker or Punk-Cena isn't gonna end 3 minutes in. There's still some build. But it's building toward a climax that, once it hits that peak, could end out of the blue.

Say you've got a CM Punk vs John Cena iron man match. It's 20 minutes in and the pace is picking up. Who cares? You can turn away for 35 minutes and you know when you turn back, you'll be seeing them going at it for 5 more minutes with someone trying to get the deciding fall.

Now say it's a regular match. There's no way you're gonna turn away at that 20 minute mark. The finish could come at any point. It could even still come 40 minutes from now. But you'll keep watching. And they'll keep you on the edge of your seat with a ton of false finishes which just aren't really possible in an iron man match until the end.
but if you turn away, you're going to miss most of the story and naturally it's going to feel a bit shit. You know how long a film is going to be before you see it and 95% of the time, if you've watched a lot of film before, you can work out it's going to end only one of a few ways. It's the story they tell in between that decides whether it's any good or not. It's the same with pro wrestling. Don't really see how an iron man match stipulation changes that fact, especially if the two guys are tied going into the last few minutes. I understand your point of view but all an iron man match really is at it's "core" is a glorified time limit that you know is going to be reached.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:39 PM   #45385
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I don't see pro wrestling as analogous to a movie as much as to a real sport. You've got two people or teams. One wins, one loses. I don't like the idea of a scripted sport having a point system. Just like if football games were scripted, there would really be little to no drama for the first 58 minutes because people would tune out if it was gonna be a blowout.

Like I said earlier, you can have drama. But the drama you can have can be accomplished in a normal match. The points really don't matter. The real end of the match is gonna come in the final minute or so. The "score" throughout the match is irrelevant. So why not add the drama of one fall possibly coming out of nowhere and all that comes along with it and just have a long match?
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Old 06-11-2013, 08:33 PM   #45386
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Iron Man matches aren't a good idea.

I happen the to Bret vs HBK Iron Man Match is the most over-rated match in history. The vast majority of it was rest holds and there was no real psychology to them.
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:03 PM   #45387
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A blowout during an Iron Man match could work in theory as long as its not the face doing it and plays into the crowd fully behind hating the heel.

Need to have a regular match then transition into a beating/venting phase by the heel that leads to a lot of DQ points for the face. Then just have the heel casually and slowly get those points back while constantly taunting and toying with the crowd to build up their hate for him.

Would have two good options to end it with the heel being soo smug with arrogance, he gets the final point with a crowd truly hating him (and maybe create a new top heel star). The other is for a gradual "last stand" by the face occurs and he gets the final point with the crowd erupting in joy.

The face can't be too helpless or else the match would just drag on but can't have sudden "Super Cena" moments or else the buildup/flow gets ruined.
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:07 PM   #45388
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Unrelated, and because I can't be arsed to bump an old thread.

If they weren't coming out to "Breaking out in Love," I'd love this for the Wyatt Family theme.

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Old 06-11-2013, 09:14 PM   #45389
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That would make a terrible entrance theme
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:20 PM   #45390
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That's why I don't pick theme songs
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:26 PM   #45391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
I don't see pro wrestling as analogous to a movie as much as to a real sport. You've got two people or teams. One wins, one loses. I don't like the idea of a scripted sport having a point system. Just like if football games were scripted, there would really be little to no drama for the first 58 minutes because people would tune out if it was gonna be a blowout.

Like I said earlier, you can have drama. But the drama you can have can be accomplished in a normal match. The points really don't matter. The real end of the match is gonna come in the final minute or so. The "score" throughout the match is irrelevant. So why not add the drama of one fall possibly coming out of nowhere and all that comes along with it and just have a long match?
it's still presented as "legit competition" tho. By that line of thinking, pro wrestling may as well not exist. I'm not even that big of a fan of the stipulation except as a rare "super athlete vs. super athlete" kind of deal, HBK/Bret, HHH/Rock, HBK/Kurt, Brock/Kurt etc. But I certainly think it can have a place and has its uses.
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:27 PM   #45392
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That's where I stand on it. It's not for everyone, but if I got Jericho vs. Bryan in an Iron Man Match, I would not complain.
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:29 PM   #45393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertner View Post
Iron Man matches aren't a good idea.

I happen the to Bret vs HBK Iron Man Match is the most over-rated match in history. The vast majority of it was rest holds and there was no real psychology to them.
definitely agree with the bold part. Not so much the "most" overrated but it was just "alright". It was more impressive from an insider "wow they're gonna do 60 minutes" kind of thing as opposed to a particularly great match. Just about every one since has been better except (I assume) those tag ones and the so called one on RAW just gone, none of which I've seen.
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Old 06-11-2013, 10:33 PM   #45394
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I would like to see a triple threat iron man match
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:58 AM   #45395
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many real competitive sports have time limits. the excitement at the end is determined by the content of the play before the final minutes and how close it is/isn't. and close games are the most exciting. don't see how an iron man match is any different.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:33 AM   #45396
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Would like to see an Iron Man Triple Threat, to be honest.
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:04 AM   #45397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
definitely agree with the bold part. Not so much the "most" overrated but it was just "alright". It was more impressive from an insider "wow they're gonna do 60 minutes" kind of thing as opposed to a particularly great match. Just about every one since has been better except (I assume) those tag ones and the so called one on RAW just gone, none of which I've seen.
It's 60 minutes of HBK working on Bret's arm, and Bret no selling it completely, Bret acting like a dick head and stiffing Shawn and rest hold after rest hold.


It's basically a 2 1/2 star match.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:14 AM   #45398
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:14 AM   #45399
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:36 AM   #45400
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