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Old 11-08-2014, 01:20 PM   #1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTS View Post
Making games is serious business, Kal.

We must make sure that all games made are in line with the accepted social views...just like in science fiction.


I feel you brother
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Old 11-08-2014, 01:02 PM   #2
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I'll code a JS script that hides all your posts. Outside of that, 'Do better' is empty bootstrappy rhetoric. You wrote a big article to Bungie telling them why they should put the sword in Destiny, why didn't you just make your own MMO shooter with a sword? Huh?

I don't know what you mean as a social service? I think games are entertaining but they're also generally really stupid. They put stories in these games with the purpose of making them appealing experiences and ultimately, they want my money. If they want my money then I'm allowed to make a decision on whether their story is good or bad or smart or dumb or whatever. I can write about that. I can talk about trends. I can guess as to why they wrote things this way or that. A lot of decisions are stupid, and they only appeal to an audience who don't know any better, so the whole thing becomes an echo chamber. I feel like I grew up and they didn't necessarily grow up with me. These games are sold around their story - at this point it's the only thing that differentiates many of them - so it's almost the most important thing. Is every story about a sociopath with a gun?
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Old 11-08-2014, 01:15 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rogerer View Post
I'll code a JS script that hides all your posts. Outside of that, 'Do better' is empty bootstrappy rhetoric. You wrote a big article to Bungie telling them why they should put the sword in Destiny, why didn't you just make your own MMO shooter with a sword? Huh?
Funny you say that.

But I'm glad you mentioned my post (which can be found right here on my blog >>> HERE!!), because it highlights the difference between criticism and solution orientation from an informed person versus an uninformed person (why can't I ride the ambulance with hurt people in this shooting game).

Quote:
These games are sold around their story - at this point it's the only thing that differentiates many of them - so it's almost the most important thing. Is every story about a sociopath with a gun?
I disagree with this. *sips tea*
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Old 11-08-2014, 01:15 PM   #4
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Dear TheRogerer,

I don't hate you. I don't think you're a bad person. I'm pretty sure you're a very generous and caring lover too.

Please, stop acting this way.

Sincerely,
DTTS
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Old 11-08-2014, 01:17 PM   #5
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Oh I know it's serious business.

I'm all about... Serious Business.
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Old 11-08-2014, 01:19 PM   #6
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I did not know you were a coder, though. I wonder; would you approach a game project story first or gameplay?
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Old 11-08-2014, 01:20 PM   #7
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Both. Sometimes you have a notion that you want to communicate via the medium of gameplay. Sometimes you think 'Nobody's made anything like Cannon Fodder since Cannon Fodder'
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Old 11-08-2014, 01:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rogerer View Post
Both. Sometimes you have a notion that you want to communicate via the medium of gameplay. Sometimes you think 'Nobody's made anything like Cannon Fodder since Cannon Fodder'
Interesting.
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Old 11-08-2014, 01:57 PM   #9
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When making a story do you pull out your Social justice warrior checklist or do you let it happen organically?
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Old 11-08-2014, 02:00 PM   #10
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Stand down, private (or are you captain or whatever by now?); I was legitimately interested in what he thinks is important in game production. Doing my Prime Factors thing. We can find the source of rifts this way.
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Old 11-08-2014, 02:05 PM   #11
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I'm the highest rank of all. Civilian.
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Old 11-08-2014, 02:05 PM   #12
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That's gay. Tell me your damn rank, soldier.
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Old 11-08-2014, 02:06 PM   #13
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Seriously though, I will reword my question.

Do you write a story with the intent of conveying a social message or do you write what entertains you?
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Old 11-08-2014, 02:57 PM   #14
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Also, can you describe your reasoning for being anti-GamerGate? What is it about them that is bothering you so much?
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Old 11-08-2014, 02:59 PM   #15
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You're going to let him talk to you like that?

I wrote a text adventure about how disappointing a life focused around 3d printers would be. I think of mechanics and story quite separately. I would say that I usually try and stick with traditional mechanics in the stuff I make for a variety of reasons, bearing in mind a lot of the reason I'm making a game is more to test and sharpen my skills, or get to grips with a certain technology. Making things happen on a screen presents a number of problems that are educational to solve. You can bung any old story in there if you want to.

If I think of a story first, then I want to tell something quite distinct that I don't think I've seen before. Papers Please is probably the best example of this I've played within the last year. That is something I wish I had made.
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Old 11-08-2014, 03:04 PM   #16
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I like text adventures in general btw.

May I continue asking questions in the hopes that I can better understand your over-all thinking on this?
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Old 11-08-2014, 03:07 PM   #17
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I will add to that in that a game like Papers, Please is practically perfect because the mechanics ARE the story. They are intwined in a way that places you inside that scenario and the rules of the game force decisions that match up to the scenario that the player character is in. It's not just a game about shooting that has cutscenes and audio clips giving exposition between shooting sessions.
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Old 11-08-2014, 03:09 PM   #18
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I still have to play it. I was obsessed with text games throughout my childhood. I, Damiano is probably my favorite. Ended up finding the book it was based on when I was in high-school at a used book store.
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Old 11-08-2014, 03:13 PM   #19
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I will deign to answer your questions, although you are an outsider. Please complete a NDA form and wear your black lanyard at all times.
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Old 11-08-2014, 03:15 PM   #20
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Two steps ahead of you. I already filed the i983 forms and received my Press Badge.

Do you have a problem with Kalyx and the gamer gate movement? If so, why?
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Old 11-08-2014, 03:34 PM   #21
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My short prelude answer is yes. Like all good hatred, it is a projection of personal guilt
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Old 11-08-2014, 03:41 PM   #22
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What about Kal's position do you dislike? What would you advise the Gamer Gate people to do?
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Old 11-08-2014, 04:09 PM   #23
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Stop shooting themselves in the foot and everyone wins. Sarkeesian's Tropes vs Videogames received a massive dose of it's funding after it was DDOSed by 4chan. She would be almost nobody if it were not for the boatloads of sympathy people end up having for her. Also any GG I meet will state that it's not about harassment or women, but when I came into this thread Kalyx was directly tweeting Anita telling her that she was wrong to feel harassed. My number 2 GGer keeps denying that it's about women but he first posted about it fuming about Zoe Quinn 'acting like a whore' and complaining, literally, about 'females in gaming'.

As I have also said, I think the supposed manifesto of gamergate is fundamentally misguided, and frankly just too silly. Also many members seem happy for a moral race to the bottom, justifying behavour by acting in the way that they disparage their enemies for. At that point, what separates you from what you hate?
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Old 11-08-2014, 04:27 PM   #24
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Can you point me to the post where Kal told someone she was wrong to feel harassed? Who is your #2 GGer? Do you think Kal is somehow sexist?

Do you think a majority of Gamer Gate members act in a way that is unethical? How would we go about figuring out the difference between a few fringe lunatics and a significant trend here?

What do you find silly about the "manifesto"?

I am still very ignorant of "gamer gate" on account of a shoddy memory. All I have defended is Kalyx's posts here which have been extremely clear and concise. I believe in giving credit where it's due. No one, from what I have seen, has really made the case against the group, and more often than not some people in this thread have willfully ignored Kal's points and explanations just to continue feeling the way they do.
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Old 11-08-2014, 05:11 PM   #25
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I can't make a judgement on all the members of gamergate. My experience with Adam Baldwin is that he enjoys playing the cigar chomping Reaganite and he's addicted to arguing, and serious gamergaters should probably regret his involvement because he's a big shitehawke.

I don't think Anita's videos are very good. I thought her original youtube series was interesting enough and I was curious to see what money could to do them. I was pretty disappointed with the results there.

Anyway, the real problem with GG is that a)with the best will in the world, it will never be able to separate itself from the Zoe Quinn stuff, b)it's a breeding ground for shitehawkes on both sides and c)as I say, I think talking about objectivity and journalistic ethics just has no place in something that is enthusiast press, and I really cannot shake the feeling that the core arguments about this really are a disproportionate response to radical feminism. Tumblrites and these 'SJW' people, if I must, do often have a shocking lack of perspective and are probably contributing a fair amount of shit.

If all things are equal, and nobody commited any wrongdoing, I would still be against the aims of gamergate. Trying to place this at the feet of the press, now, doesn't make any sense. Gaming press had a power over the industry and a position to abuse it in the 90s. This was in reponse to their relevance at the time. Gaming press is now less and less relevant and any consumer is in a position to completely bypass them, not only from the wide range of opinions out there, but also the opportunity to instantly watch masses of streamed footage of a game, which probably gives the best impression on it's quality without any editorial interference.

To then complain to care about a lower review score because of a personal quabble that a reviewer has:

a)tries to deny the inherent personal subjective experience of engaging these things, which you'll never be able to successfully do and so it's better to meet it head on than try to repress it
b)implies that there's some sort of dishonesty from the perspective of the reviewer
c)tries to paint the notion of the 'core' gamer being the true voice, when that's a self defeating perspective as it is
d)plays into the hands of, as I said, people putting boobs in games because it takes money out of your pocket

I say let everyone have their say. I love reading reviews of things that hate what I love. I love reading reviews that love what I hate. Let my opinion change. I go back to things I played or watched or read years ago and I look at it in a whole new light, with my experience and age. I would crumple up those old reviews I wrote. We're young and dumb.

Aside from the logical fallacy fencing and freedom of speech and what not, GamerGate is just too embroiled in the origins of attacks against women, regarding an industry that has historically been a young boys club, and that's something I've always been conscious of. Once it got onto twitter and forums, it's too hard to pin it down to anything after that. The root of it is still that it too often gets away from what it pretends to be about, and I think what it claims to be about isn't good either. It doesn't make sense. Games journalism is already defanged. It's future is to be as subjective as possible. My favourite reviewer is Tim Rogers. His reviews are about 50,000 words long and usually end up mostly talking about what he was doing in the mid 90s or how the game reminds him of playing Mario 3. He is also absurdly game intelligent and is able to dissect the experience in a way that cuts right to the core. Objectivity means nothing to a Tim Rogers review.
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Old 11-08-2014, 07:17 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by The Rogerer View Post
I can't make a judgement on all the members of gamergate. My experience with Adam Baldwin is that he enjoys playing the cigar chomping Reaganite and he's addicted to arguing, and serious gamergaters should probably regret his involvement because he's a big shitehawke.
I'm fine with him only as a fellow supporter of GG. I have a dislike for ever tweet he does outside of that. Love him on screen, but he's somebody I otherwise would not follow. actually, there's several people I'm only in league with by a strange bedfellows set-up. GG naturally gained the assist of conservatives because the politics being pushed back are hyper left. I'm a left guy myself, so in this bizarre thing I'm sided with people I otherwise wouldn't communicate with on a social. But I think this is a strength of a movement, if it's able to build bridges between ideologies.

And honestly; whenever something comes along and actually gets rivals to join forces, it's a huge hint that the joined forces may have some legit issues there. Righteous causes have a habit of featuring bitter rivals joined together as opposition. That's just my personal observation on history anyway.

Quote:
Anyway, the real problem with GG is that a)with the best will in the world, it will never be able to separate itself from the Zoe Quinn stuff
Sad but true.

Quote:
b)it's a breeding ground for shitehawkes on both sides
How is this a specific problem with GG? This can be an issue with any movement ever. And can GG be blamed for creating assholes on the other side?

Quote:
c)as I say, I think talking about objectivity and journalistic ethics just has no place in something that is enthusiast press, and I really cannot shake the feeling that the core arguments about this really are a disproportionate response to radical feminism. Tumblrites and these 'SJW' people, if I must, do often have a shocking lack of perspective and are probably contributing a fair amount of shit.
I don't think GG wants objectivity in the sense you're thinking here. We know robots aren't writing these articles. Nobody's silly enough to mean that kind of objectivity. I don't even think GGers posit this a great deal anyway. It comes down to ethics. It was a lack of this that led to GG at the beginning, and there very simple things the journalists could have done to kill this before it started.

Quote:
To then complain to care about a lower review score because of a personal quabble that a reviewer has...
I don't think GG is concerned about some guy giving a low score. You are talking about the Bayo2 thing, yes? I have explained what the problem was with that piece and it had nothing to do with the score.

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The root of it is still that it too often gets away from what it pretends to be about, and I think what it claims to be about isn't good either.
I wanna ask; what would the line be in your mind where something goes from pretending to being?

GG funded a feminist game jam. GG raised money for anti-bullying awareness. GG put women forward when anti-GG kept telling them to stand down and be quiet (fancy that). GG showcased the true diversity of the gaming community when anti-GG kept pushing their 'gamers are all white sexist' narrative. Every journalist who has had equal communication with both sides almost always notes how GG treated them great while anti-GG were shockingly harsh (the latest case being YTer David Packman).

At what point, to you, does this illusion of being a good cause become a good cause? Is there any action GG can take, for you, that would finally separate it from it's complicated origins (it was not about harassing a women, as somebody who seen this unfold live, but I'm done arguing this info)? Why can't you measure the good over the bad? Is it that you don't care about the lives that were improved because of us? Cancer research, female developers, people of color speaking out; are these not things you find impressive?
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Old 11-09-2014, 04:59 AM   #27
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I wanna ask; what would the line be in your mind where something goes from pretending to being?

GG funded a feminist game jam. GG raised money for anti-bullying awareness. GG put women forward when anti-GG kept telling them to stand down and be quiet (fancy that). GG showcased the true diversity of the gaming community when anti-GG kept pushing their 'gamers are all white sexist' narrative. Every journalist who has had equal communication with both sides almost always notes how GG treated them great while anti-GG were shockingly harsh (the latest case being YTer David Packman).

At what point, to you, does this illusion of being a good cause become a good cause? Is there any action GG can take, for you, that would finally separate it from it's complicated origins (it was not about harassing a women, as somebody who seen this unfold live, but I'm done arguing this info)? Why can't you measure the good over the bad? Is it that you don't care about the lives that were improved because of us? Cancer research, female developers, people of color speaking out; are these not things you find impressive?
I acknowledge those actions coming out of GG, and I'm not trying to discredit them, but they came at a time when GG had expanded so much that practically everyone was involved one way or another. I've taken flak for my views before but I've said that charity is often used as a modern day version of buying indulgences from the church. I won't discredit it though, just say as I did before that by this point it's really hard to define what GG even is any more.

My original GG quarrel on rajah started because I was drawn into it with the first post. It started with him posting the 'Five Guys' video, ranting about how sick he was that this whore was getting away with it and that somebody should do something. I don't particularly want to brand him with the big misogynist iron, but throughout the following weeks, when he wasn't just reposting labyrinthian composite images of twitter, he would let some really weird things about women slip out. Nobody's simple.

So I already came into this thread with my dukes up. What really posted me over the top was the link to your twitter, seeing you directly message femfreq with a pompous challenge of telling her that her suffering was relativistic and you should see how [my ebonies] have it. Whatever you think of Anita, you know how many message a second she already gets, and I felt as bad for her as I did for you getting swept up in that sort of thing. I don't think everyone sits around plotting evil, I think we get swept up in things. I don't post on twitter any more because I think it's inherently a horrible medium, and it touched me somewhat. Bloody hell, I felt uncomfortable when DTTS posted a weird article about me in the music forum, so I can only imagine what it feels like for Anita. This is the way of the world, it's fine and it's not that bad, but you did this and you labelled it #gamergate, you refer to them as 'we' and I think you should unplug from that collective. I've always felt that way, it gives people false confidence. I've apologised for throwing a few closed fists your way - at the end of the day I figure that TPWW is a closed environment so to a degree roughhousing is within context. We don't have the whole world piling on

About actual gamergate now...

I think it's too big and doesn't make sense any more. The actions of bombarding advertisers to get them to pull from gamasutra/gawker is fine in isolation, but ultimately silly too. In a way it's a sort of endorsement of advertising funded coverage by trying to police that field into something that suits your goals. However advertising funded press is the number 1 thing that's holding coverage back from being what it could be.

It reminds me of the '"'lefts'"' No To Page 3 campaign in a way. They think they're dealing a blow to feminism by taking the topless women out of newspapers, instead I think it's just a tokenistic strike agains the working class, and ultimately it says "We'll accept this paper when that's taken out!" It's a fucking Murdoch rag! The topless women are the only honest thing in the paper, they're very strict about their implant rules. Everything else in it is dodgy mass media spin, and by asking them to remove Page 3 they're endorsing them as an otherwise legitimate medium.

What was the point of that? It's hard to have a movement (especially after that pizza) that knows what it wants. Like I said, taking all negative aspects out of gamergate, if I was going to be an activist about the industry you'd more likely see me writing to publishers, not crying for coverage. We don't need to change the press at all, we don't even need to destroy them because we can ignore them.

That's without talking about how absolutely boring the constant stream of porny women in games are.
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Old 11-08-2014, 05:39 PM   #28
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That seems pretty fair and concise (size withstanding). I'd like to see what Kal feels about it, but I will say a few words that I think are appropriate.

Diversity of thought is incredibly important in any organization. My favorite quote and one I used on all my email signatures at work is by Patton, "If every one is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking."

The industry SHOULD be challenged. People should be expressing their opinions and questioning the status quo. I also believe people should be pushing back, having that public debate in the economy of ideas so that the best ones succeed and the lesser ones fade. I think a group of consumers coming together and forming a lobby (as in political lobby) is a good idea. I wish every consumer group had a lobby fighting for them right now, because as of right now it is incredibly difficult to break into gaming. Viral game hits are wonderful and all, but how many indie gamers really make anything comparable to main stream production companies (real question, I don't know).

One thing that really stands out to me is that I was asking myself the same question about the power that the game media has these days. As you pointed out, people can watch game footage on youtube and get a much better idea, much of the time, than a 3 page review as to whether or not they'll enjoy it. It'd be like if every movie that came out let people watch the first 30 minutes for free and then decide whether or not they want to pay. It'd be such a short investment of time and provide a better choice than believing that opinions of a movie critic.

Anyway, thank you TheRogerer for that explanation.
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Old 11-08-2014, 05:52 PM   #29
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As an outsider, all I really see are the stated goals of GG vs. what they do to achieve said stated goals.

Are there serious issues with VG Journalism? Yes. Kalyx and I have both mentioned quite a few. But what how would going after game developers or critics help fix the flaws with VG Journalism? And the only Journalists again that they seem to go after are the folks who bitch about GG. How about go after the ones who kid-glove the new CoD that is at best marginally different from the old CoD? How about bitch about the companies who advertise a game showing cut-scenes or stills not used involving the game engine.

I quit really being serious about games in a very piecemeal fashion. I stand by my belief that the Skate series killed skateboarding games even more than the annualization of the Tony Hawk series did. Personally, I don't want realism. If I wanted to skateboard for real, I'd jump on a skateboard, fall off of it immediately and wear a cast on my arm for a couple of months. I really liked the music games, but that trend died off kind of quickly. I won't play another Madden game until they do a serious revamp of the engine that makes the play new and exciting. I hate FPS, and action RPGs feel really boring at the moment. Before I knew it, I wasn't really interested in playing video games anymore. (well, apart from Animal Crossing right now, but that's more boredom than anything else.) Getting old sucks.
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Old 11-08-2014, 05:55 PM   #30
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I have read Kal's criticisms about that sort of thing. I want to assume that's what GG is about, but I'm happy to wait for more info.
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Old 11-08-2014, 07:19 PM   #31
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I have read Kal's criticisms about that sort of thing. I want to assume that's what GG is about, but I'm happy to wait for more info.
Vast is on the money about the hegemony of gaming mechanics and aesthetics. I'd go farther and say is kinda ruined the HD era of gaming. We'll see what this generation goes, so far so good.
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Old 11-08-2014, 06:53 PM   #32
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My personal issues with games journalism, as anti-GGers I've met on Twitter have noted, seem to be much more agreeable than what GG is about. I've come across this support for my own issues with the industry so much it's made me rethink how much I participate in this mess. Not one anti-GG I had extended talks with had issue with issues I highlighted, I have noted this. The ones where me and GG meet most is journalism ethics, but honestly my personal issues are way beyond that. I consider myself a supporter still because I believe in the message.

I find myself in a weird position that some feminist may have been. Feminism says they're about equality, but their actions reek of double standards and female superiority. But what of the self identified feminist who's attachment to the name begins and ends with equality? She has nothing to do with the bint who tweeted #killallmen, or feminist groups who deny accused men rights while protecting accused women. People would say to that girl, "Equality isn't a feminist thing anyway, just believe in that and leave the baggage behind." I have said that.

So I'm in a real funny place where my own advice rears its head. I have noble intentions for the industry that people who hate GG completely agree with. I can champion the ethics in journalism, along with my more serious qualms, without considering myself GamerGate. As I said to the feminist a few weeks ago, the goal is much more important than the tag anyway.

That's where I am right now.

In a little bit I am going to respond to Rog's last big post. It's worth a reply.
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Old 11-08-2014, 07:37 PM   #33
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I feel like I understand a lot more now. Have a good one you two.

And thank you again TheRogerer.
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Old 11-08-2014, 11:34 PM   #34
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Um...
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Old 11-09-2014, 01:49 AM   #35
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wtf
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Old 11-09-2014, 01:52 AM   #36
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"Cultural Marxism" sounds like something made up by a Neo-Nazi
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Old 11-09-2014, 01:53 AM   #37
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Funny you say that.
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Old 11-09-2014, 01:07 PM   #38
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My tweets toward Anita are my tweets toward her. She's a grown woman. When you're twitter you're speaking to the world, and sometimes the world talks back. I'm sorry but she knows what she's doing and doesn't need your protection. She can block me whenever she wants.
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Old 11-09-2014, 01:27 PM   #39
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Sorry I'll get off my steed. As Marcus Aurelius would say the victim loses nothing, it's the perp that compromises themself. Throwing shade at me doesn't change how you were acting. It wasn't good for you either.
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Old 11-09-2014, 01:32 PM   #40
Kalyx triaD
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I don't feel I've said anything out of turn. I don't need to delete anything and you're welcome to post tweets that you feel are out of line. I will defend each of them or concede if I see it's kinda wild.
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