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Old 06-28-2010, 08:16 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
Yes, because the human mind is so well understood and the correlation between concussion and murder is so strong.
Well, Waltman thinks so.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:17 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by addy2hotty View Post
Depends on how you look it.
Not really. functionality and rationality are not the same thing, regardless.

Further, sedating his son wasn't necessarily a humane gesture. You have to selectively interpret the evidence to get there. You're working backwards from morality and shoehorning it in to demonstrate it was there in the first place.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:18 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by addy2hotty View Post
More of a theory than anything else. It's difficult to have any type of theory about this without taking a prejudicial view one way or the other when presenting facts possibly overblown by media intrusion.

No-one has come up with any definitive answer in 3 years on the subject. I doubt anyone here will get any closer.
The absence of definitive answers doesn't make your reasoning any more valid.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:19 PM   #44
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i.e just because we don't have conclusive proof does not mean "all thoeries are equally true."
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:25 PM   #45
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No matter what he "accomplished" in wrestling, no matter how respected he was for his ability, I think that a lot of wrestling fans will always remember Benoit as a cold-blooded killer who strangled his wife and suffocated his mentally retarded son. For many fans, even the ones who consider themselves "smart," it doesn't matter how many amazing matches he put on, or how amazing that moment was at Wrestlemania XX, it will always, I repeat, ALWAYS be overshadowed by the fact that he killed his wife and son. I just don't know if people who feel that are looking objectively at the whole situation. To be honest, it's hard for me to view him as inherently and thoroughly evil.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:25 PM   #46
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The absence of definitive answers doesn't make your reasoning any more valid.
Agreed. I haven't done a full scale investigation into the topic, just a few articles here and there.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:25 PM   #47
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i.e just because we don't have conclusive proof does not mean "all thoeries are equally true."
Indeed.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:26 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
Not really. functionality and rationality are not the same thing, regardless.

Further, sedating his son wasn't necessarily a humane gesture. You have to selectively interpret the evidence to get there. You're working backwards from morality and shoehorning it in to demonstrate it was there in the first place.
The actions of placing the bibles, deciding to kill himself out of what may have been guilt, and the conscious decision to lie to WWE are all actions that may be construed as indicating an understanding of right and wrong.
At the same time, they may just indicate self preservation. It's hard to know what his full motives behind these things were.

That poses the larger question of morality and consequences. Was he remorseful, or was he just worried about the aftermath?
This question can be raised in any crime. Do people choose to do it in spite of morality, or is punishment the only concern?
Was he a sociopath to begin with?
I don't think assuming he knew the difference between right and wrong given the circumstances is much different from doing the same in nearly any murder case.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:33 PM   #49
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I haven't watched a Benoit match (well except multi-man matches he was in) since his death. He's a very good wrestler and had a great career, so I do respect what he did in the ring but the whole tragedy thing killed Chris Benoit for me. I don't even have the slightest desire to watch the WM 20 triple threat.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:47 PM   #50
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He's my favourite wrestler of all time, and I miss him, but sadly his legacy will forever be tarnished by how it ended.

Oddly enough I was watching some old Benoit matches today on various DVDs, I had no idea it was the anniversary. In particular, his WM23 match with MVP and No Mercy tag match with Angle VS Rey Mysterio and Edge were amazing.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:48 PM   #51
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I haven't watched a Benoit match (well except multi-man matches he was in) since his death. He's a very good wrestler and had a great career, so I do respect what he did in the ring but the whole tragedy thing killed Chris Benoit for me. I don't even have the slightest desire to watch the WM 20 triple threat.
I agree with this. I actually watched WM20 a couple months ago and found myself turning it off at the main event.

I will watch tag team or multiple man matches he's a part of if they come up I guess. I don't really have a policy. It just puts a damper on the whole thing. Matches where he isn't the focus are obviously less dampered.

I agree 100% that the whole ordeal just kills it for me.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:49 PM   #52
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So then, I guess it's split. Some say it was so deliberate and calculated that he was clearly in control of his actions. Others say it was the mix of drugs, concussions, dementia, and whatever else. Of course, wouldn't he have had to be some kind of "crazy" to kill his wife, his son and himself for no apparent reason? Do you guys and gals think he should be inducted into the HOF?
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:52 PM   #53
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Absolutely not.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:54 PM   #54
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Absolutely not.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:56 PM   #55
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wouldn't be surprised if some indy group puts him in one with an asterisk next to his name or something, but will never happen in the WWE hof
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:57 PM   #56
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I think open discussion about the crimes themselves and where his mental state is warranted, but I am pretty firm in my belief that he should in no way be honored. That's what the HOF is after all.
Sure, there are some dishonorable people in there, but to knowingly honor a man who killed his son is way out of line. That's why I'm sure it will never happen.
Respect is a part of legacy
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:57 PM   #57
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Yeah, I guess you guys are right. But is it time to stop ignoring his accomplishments as a performer as a way of punishing him for the monstrous acts he committed in his final moments? I say yes. I honestly feel that people need to learn to separate the man from the performer. Condemn his final acts, not everything he ever did in life prior to them, a distinction that might not be easy to make. He was one of the greatest in-ring wrestlers ever. That's something that can't be taken away from him. Right? I don't think one act can (or should) completely ruin a lifetime of entertaining the fans. Taint it, maybe, but not erase it completely.
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:01 PM   #58
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I don't think it's unfair to take his actions into account when considering his legacy on just wrestling. It was a major industry event.
I also don't think it's unfair to let that put a damper on his career, but that's me. Wrestling blurs the lines between fiction and reality anyways, and it's performers are not just characters but also personas.
Chris Benoit is Chris Benoit and whatever his legacy is as a result of this is the way it is. I don't think it's a tragedy that his skills are overshdadowed. I think the rest of it is a tragedy.
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:05 PM   #59
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What? How does that not ruin his legacy? He killed his family. That is a pretty fucking big no-no.
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:08 PM   #60
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As an ordained minister, I have religion to turn to. I hid it so Athiests and people who don't want to hear religious rambling don't have to see it.

SPOILER: show
We, as mortals, are only given the limited view of the world we experience. None of us were in the house that day, and none of us truly know what happened. We also are incapable of seeing inside the mind of Chris Benoit. Matthew 7 of the Christian bible says Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. The higher power, be it God, Jesus, Allah, Yama, or in my religion, Minos, know far better than we do the events and mindset of that night. They have judged him. If he was at fault, he is receiving his eternal punishment in Hell or Tartarus or wherever the place may be. If he has been judged to have not been in control of his actions, that his brain was beyond the ability to determine right and wrong, or the unlikely event that somebody outside was able to fool the investigators, the God or Goddess will know, and he will be forgiven and united with his family in the next world.

I cannot preach forgiveness, as a Pagan, I do not believe in it. However, for any Christians reading this, your bible states in Colossians 3:13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, if any man has a complaint against any; even as Christ forgave you, so you also do.

As it pertains to my beliefs, however, while I obviously condemn his actions, I cannot condemn the man. Even the greatest of heroes, Heracles, succumbed to madness wrought by Hera and killed his family twice. If madness can effect the greatest of mortals, it can effect any of us.

The only thing I really know to do, is to leave his judgement to those wiser than we. Celebrate the Chris Benoit that brought us joy for so many years. Remember the good times he gave us. Wiping him from history will not bring Daniel or Nancy back. Allow the Gods to deal with the man who killed, and the man who died.

-Reverend Jeremy Carl Hallowell
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:16 PM   #61
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My personal opinion is he was a great wrestler who was very skilled and had good matches. I won't go as far as the WWE has done and just completely ignore him or his matches (even though WWE had a good reason why they did).

No way he would ever be considered for the HoF since he basically "ruined" his image and career with the murders and WWE wouldn't want to bring any trouble by associating themselves with him as a wrestler.

As a person, I think it was horrible what he did to his family and defiantly lost a lot of respect for him as a result. The murders make his suicide very tough to accept as tragic since he no longer is seen as a "selfish" or a situation that could have been avoided like most people debate on suicides but as a horrible person who decided to kill others before taking the "coward's" way out.
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:18 PM   #62
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FYI, WWE has re-added Benoit to title histories and even the Mania 20 page

http://www.wwe.com/shows/wrestlemani...m20/mainevent/
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Old 06-29-2010, 12:01 AM   #63
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IMO Benoit deserves nothing more than to rot in hell for his actions whether or not the drugs or brain damage had anything to do with it is of no importance to me I will always see him as a killer and as far as I'm concerned his time in WWE and the wrestling business as a whole should be burried and forgotten and to all those who disagree with me I see where your comming from I really do and I'm all for you having your opinions but mine will always be that he is a monster
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Old 06-29-2010, 12:02 AM   #64
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Old 06-29-2010, 12:55 AM   #65
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Its been 2 years since Cody Rhodes beat himself for the Tag Team Titles at Night of Champions.

Discuss this amazing feat..or not.
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Old 06-29-2010, 12:59 AM   #66
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Feel how you want to feel about it, I'll feel how I want to feel about it. It's a very divisive and emotional issue when you consider the popularity of Chris Benoit and the horrendus actions he performed. Whether you thought he did it cold and calculating or he was the victim of his own deteriorating mental facilities of the varying shades of gray in between. There are two things that are true...

Chris Benoit was a fantastic wrestler.

Chris Benoit murdered his wife and young son.

Leave it up to yourself to determine if one defeats the other or if you can seperate one from the other.
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Old 06-29-2010, 01:37 AM   #67
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There are two things that are true...

Chris Benoit was a fantastic wrestler.

Chris Benoit murdered killed his wife and young son.
There is a difference, and one point of my post was that while it's indisputable that he killed them unless you're a conspiracy nut, if he indeed had brain damage, it's not indisputable that he murdered them.
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Old 06-29-2010, 05:56 AM   #68
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He was my favorite. I can't see a picture of him, let alone a match, without thinking about what he did. I'm ashamed to say he was my favorite at one point.
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Old 06-29-2010, 11:16 AM   #69
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There is a difference, and one point of my post was that while it's indisputable that he killed them unless you're a conspiracy nut, if he indeed had brain damage, it's not indisputable that he murdered them.
I guess then technically him being a fantastic wrestler is disputable as well.
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Old 06-29-2010, 11:22 AM   #70
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Even though murder is morally impermissible and the final actions of Chris Benoit were extremely unfortunate, I also think too many people in our society are too quick to cast stones. We all agree murder is wrong, but how many of you people here support capital punishment?? Some of you think Benoit deserves to "rot in hell" for his actions, but would you say that about your own son/brother/father if he murdered someone?? Understandably, no. It's very easy to pass judgment on people, and I suppose that's human nature, but maybe we ought to think twice about doing so.
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Old 06-29-2010, 11:31 AM   #71
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I haven't read this whole thread, but I still have the same feelings as I did 3 years ago. I still am a Chris Benoit fan inside the sqaure circle. I still watch his matches, I still watch his DVD. I will say it's very weird watching WCW in 1995 though when he's with Nancy.

But what Chris Benoit did was horrendous and he's a piece of shit for doing that. He took his kids own life. he'll never get any sympathy from me because of the whole brain damage thing.
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Old 06-29-2010, 11:39 AM   #72
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As an ordained minister, I have religion to turn to. I hid it so Athiests and people who don't want to hear religious rambling don't have to see it.

SPOILER: show
We, as mortals, are only given the limited view of the world we experience. None of us were in the house that day, and none of us truly know what happened. We also are incapable of seeing inside the mind of Chris Benoit. Matthew 7 of the Christian bible says Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. The higher power, be it God, Jesus, Allah, Yama, or in my religion, Minos, know far better than we do the events and mindset of that night. They have judged him. If he was at fault, he is receiving his eternal punishment in Hell or Tartarus or wherever the place may be. If he has been judged to have not been in control of his actions, that his brain was beyond the ability to determine right and wrong, or the unlikely event that somebody outside was able to fool the investigators, the God or Goddess will know, and he will be forgiven and united with his family in the next world.

I cannot preach forgiveness, as a Pagan, I do not believe in it. However, for any Christians reading this, your bible states in Colossians 3:13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, if any man has a complaint against any; even as Christ forgave you, so you also do.

As it pertains to my beliefs, however, while I obviously condemn his actions, I cannot condemn the man. Even the greatest of heroes, Heracles, succumbed to madness wrought by Hera and killed his family twice. If madness can effect the greatest of mortals, it can effect any of us.

The only thing I really know to do, is to leave his judgement to those wiser than we. Celebrate the Chris Benoit that brought us joy for so many years. Remember the good times he gave us. Wiping him from history will not bring Daniel or Nancy back. Allow the Gods to deal with the man who killed, and the man who died.

-Reverend Jeremy Carl Hallowell
wait, you worship the Minotaur guy who judges dead people?
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Old 06-29-2010, 12:26 PM   #73
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Yeah, I guess you guys are right. But is it time to stop ignoring his accomplishments as a performer as a way of punishing him for the monstrous acts he committed in his final moments? I say yes. I honestly feel that people need to learn to separate the man from the performer. Condemn his final acts, not everything he ever did in life prior to them, a distinction that might not be easy to make. He was one of the greatest in-ring wrestlers ever. That's something that can't be taken away from him. Right? I don't think one act can (or should) completely ruin a lifetime of entertaining the fans. Taint it, maybe, but not erase it completely.
Ted Kaczynski was a brilliant and accomplished scholar who graduated from Harvard.

His accomplishments don't change that fact that he was the Unabomber.

Just because Benoit did great things in his life, does not change the fact that what he did was reprehensible. It is interesting that people put so much energy trying to defend his legacy. You could make the same case for many murders/monsters who have come and gone throughout history that although they did horrible things, they also contributed to society at some point in their lives.

I find it extremely hard to praise a man, who although entertained me, murdered his family in such a horrific fashion.
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Old 06-29-2010, 12:46 PM   #74
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wait, you worship the Minotaur guy who judges dead people?
Hidden: Religious
SPOILER: show
He's one of many Gods and Goddesses, yes. I'm a Pagan, specifically a Hellenic Polytheist / Athenian Monolatrist. It means I believe in all the greek Gods and Godesses, but most of my preaching and worship revolves around the Goddess Athena.
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Old 06-29-2010, 01:05 PM   #75
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I find it extremely hard to praise a man, who although entertained me, murdered his family in such a horrific fashion.
I find it extremely hard to "praise" any human being, and I would certainly never "praise" someone who committed a murder. But whereas some people here think the world is black and white, I see there's a lot of gray.
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Old 06-29-2010, 02:55 PM   #76
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The one thing that still gets me is: there are people out there that say they can appreciate John Cena the person, but detest John Cena the character. Shouldn't the exact opposite be equally applicable to Chris Benoit - appreciate the charcter and detest the person?
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Old 06-29-2010, 04:08 PM   #77
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I was a big fan of Benoit. I literally was stood up screaming for HHH to tap at WM20 and was overjoyed when he did and Benoit became champion. Now I cannot watch - or even think of - that moment without thinking of his last actions.

I won't debate the right and wrong of it, a lot of stuff is still unknown and will remain that way. But I will say, that for me personally, his legacy/accomplishments are ruined and he should never be inducted to the HoF.

I do think that WWE go to needless lengths to "erase his existence" though.
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Old 06-29-2010, 05:44 PM   #78
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I heard TNA is pairing up Homicide and Suicide, and calling it Chris Benoit.

Jokes aside, Benoit was a great technicle wrestler, and here's a good video to watch if you were a fan.
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:05 PM   #79
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Quote:
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I heard TNA is pairing up Homicide and Suicide, and calling it Chris Benoit.

Jokes aside, Benoit was a great technicle wrestler, and here's a good video to watch if you were a fan.
Where was the joke that you're putting aside?
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:12 PM   #80
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I initially thought the whole thing was a work, ashamed to say.

Benoit is one of my favorite wrestlers of all time, I can't get past it. If Kurt Angle murdered his ex-wife and Jeff Jarrett and then himself in a fit of jealous rage tomorrow, he would still be my favorite wrestler ever. Can't help it. If your moral compass dictates that you can't separate an on-air character from the actor who plays him-and that's essentially what is going on here-then that is your call. Enjoy that.
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