Is it better to be a mark?

[BasicThuganomics]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight So by your logic, Bopy Bands and reality TV are really really good, because they're kool and mainstream right now?

Personally I don't like those things, but when they make as much money as they do they are doing something right. Even if it is a temporary thing.

I don't think comparing wrestling to these things is relevant by the way. Just my opinion.

[PureHatred]

Originally Posted by BasicThuganomics I am defending them because I don't think there is anything wrong with being a mark. But obviously you seem to think there is something wrong with that, and I disagree.

I never said that I think there's somthing wrong with them. That's just not what I want to be. Maybe I was a little rough in explaining what i think a mark is.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Red Hot Scott I'm kind of a "smark," I guess (though I'm very confused by all these labels), and I'm not suggesting "smarks" aren't "real" fans. I'm saying people who watching wrestling only once-in-a-while, the ones who leave when they're not entertained, the people who stop watching wrestling and go watch reality shows... those are the ones I'm referring to. "Real" fans watch wrestling whether it's "cool" or not.

A real fan turns off bad wrestling.

I'm a real fan. When wrestling's good, I buy every PPV, I buy the videos, the books, and the merch. When there's not enough quality product for it to be worth it, I buy 2-3 PPVs a year, don't buy merch if there's no real personalities worth it, and overall don't bother with a substandard product.

Only an idiot dedicates so much to a bad product because they want to "support" wrestling. The only way to encourage good wrestling is to support the good stuff, and not the bad.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by BasicThuganomics Personally I don't like those things, but when they make as much money as they do they are doing something right. Even if it is a temporary thing. I don't think comparing wrestling to these things is relevant by the way. Just my opinion.

When you use the argument "it was popular, so it must have been great!" For wrestling, you basically MAKE this comparison relavent.

[BasicThuganomics]

Originally Posted by PureHatred I never said that I think there's somthing wrong with them. That's just not what I want to be. Maybe I was a little rough in explaining what i think a mark is.

Ok fair enough, I just misunderstood you a little bit.

[BasicThuganomics]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight When you use the argument "it was popular, so it must have been great!" For wrestling, you basically MAKE this comparison relavent.

I didn't say that wrestling was great because it was popular. I said that the reason wrestling was popular a few years ago was because it was better back then. And IMO wrestling product was much better a few years ago.

[PureHatred]

Originally Posted by BasicThuganomics I didn't say that wrestling was great because it was popular. I said that the reason wrestling was popular a few years ago was because it was better back then. And IMO wrestling product was much better a few years ago.

But, see, a lot of the people who watched it had no clue whether it was good or not. They didn't even really know what was going on. They just watched it because it was popular.

When it stopped being popular, they stopped watching. I'm sure there are plenty of fans who turned off their TVs because it wasn't good and the WWE permanently lost plenty of possible hardcore fans. But there are even more that were just watching because it was something to do.

[Marc the Smark]

I hope we're discussing, not arguing. I never meant to cause any problems.

[Marc the Smark]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight A real fan turns off bad wrestling. I'm a real fan. When wrestling's good, I buy every PPV, I buy the videos, the books, and the merch. When there's not enough quality product for it to be worth it, I buy 2-3 PPVs a year, don't buy merch if there's no real personalities worth it, and overall don't bother with a substandard product. Only an idiot dedicates so much to a bad product because they want to "support" wrestling. The only way to encourage good wrestling is to support the good stuff, and not the bad.

How can a real fan be someone who "turns off bad wrestling?" That's like cheering for the Yankees just because they're popular, or cheering for the Red Sox but only when they win. I'm not trying to argue that you're not a "real" fan, just trying to understand what you mean. And no, I don't buy the merchandise just to support the show.

[BasicThuganomics]

Originally Posted by PureHatred But, see, a lot of the people who watched it had no clue whether it was good or not. They didn't even really know what was going on. They just watched it because it was popular. When it stopped being popular, they stopped watching. I'm sure there are plenty of fans who turned off their TVs because it wasn't good and the WWE permanently lost plenty of possible hardcore fans. But there are even more that were just watching because it was something to do.

Ok, but if the product hadn't been good, would it have become popular in the first place? Whether or not people thought it was a kool thing to watch, they were entertained by it. People who tuned in because they heard it was kool would know if it was good or not. Don't make out people in general to be so stupid that they can't tell if something is good or not. Wrestling being popular and mainstream made some people tune in for the first time. But Wrestling being good made people tune in more than once for a while at least. Wrestling being bad made people not tune in anymore, and made it not be popular and mainstream.

[PureHatred]

It's called being a fan of quality. Or of wrestling in general and not just the WWE. If enough people are watcing TV or ordering the PPV or supporting the WWE product in anyway when they think it's utter crap (not just one or two storylines, but just a complete waste of time) then the WWE has no incentive to change.

Basically, as a consumer the only truly effective message you can send to the company is through your dollar. I stopped watching completely after the Ktie Vick fiasco, and only started up again after this past Royal Rumble. And that was because of the Benoit/Angle match. I didn't stop watching wrestling. I just spent my dollar somewhere else.

[Rock Bottom]

hello i must tell u that if ur a internet smark u really no nothing about wresling jim roas has said ppl on the internet have vavid imajinayshuns. he is ryt and if u dont b-lieve me hear is a example of alot of idiots trying 2 be smarx. mark all teh way111!!!!

http://www.tpww.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9773&page=1

[PureHatred]

Originally Posted by BasicThuganomics Ok, but if the product hadn't been good, would it have become popular in the first place? Whether or not people thought it was a kool thing to watch, they were entertained by it. People who tuned in because they heard it was kool would know if it was good or not. Don't make out people in general to be so stupid that they can't tell if something is good or not. Wrestling being popular and mainstream made some people tune in for the first time. But Wrestling being good made people tune in more than once for a while at least. Wrestling being bad made people not tune in anymore, and made it not be popular and mainstream.

No...obviously it was good. That's why it started geting viewers. Let me be more clear: Tthe product improved and it started attracting more viewers. But when it was drawing huge numbers, it was a result of the mainstream fans. It's like the difference between being popular and being a full blown fad. I'm not saying that time period wasn't entertaining. I'm saying that the difference between Nitro and Raw getting 5's and 7's in the Nielsens is that group of people who were watching and just didn't know the difference.

You can't seriously tell me you idn't know anyone in that era who couldn't tell you who Rick Steamboat was but could recite Road Dogg's entire pre-match monologue.

[tucsonspeed6]

Originally Posted by PureHatred Stay way from wresling web sites for 3 months. See if it makes a difference. Like you said, the Net puts the information out there, but you don't have to look it up.

I did that shortly before I signed on to the forums here. The writers of the articles on the main page were so damn negative that it seemed that the WWE couldn't do anything right, and the honest truth is that the product was getting better. Since I was enjoying the programming and the guys at this site told me not to, I decided that I'd give up this site. The funny thing about it is that even after a few months away from this site, I'd still be watching and somebody would ask me "Hey, whatever happened to (insert missing wrestler's name here)" and I'd reply "They must have botched something and injured themself. I never became any more of a mark by cutting off my supply of information. I just didn't have the information whenever I wanted it.

Originally Posted by Kane Knight Personally, I haven't diminished my interest in wrestling because of "smarkdon." I've felt a diminished interest because wrestling's sucked lately. Come on, Wrestlemania XX was a night of overall letdown. WRESTLEMANIA! THE BIGGEST FUcking PPV OF THE YEAR! FOUR HOURS OF MATCHES!

Look at where the WWE was coming from. Some of the matches weren't bad at all. The WWE knew that the internet smarks would love to see Benoit win the title. His workrate is supreme and he doesn't have any backstage political issues. HHH and Shawn Michaels both have good workrates as well, but we all know that they're in big with Vince and were half expecting one of them to win that night even though news and rumors told us otherwise. A Mark would see the promos and would think "Shawn Michaels really needs to beat HHH because his entire life revolves around it right now. He's got the heart and the ability to win. The only way anyone else can win is by cheating." and of course the mark would be let down when the third wheel wins the title. On the other hand, the mark would have been waiting for ages to see the match between Lesner and Goldberg. The top of every mark's best potential matches of all time list would probably have either that match or Goldberg v. Austin. However, for every Smark out there, the mere idea of the match was total shit. The announcement of Goldberg v. Lesner.... average mark: " " me: " " You have to give the WWE a little credit there. On the issue of entertaining marks and smarks, they were caught between a rock and a hard place.

[PureHatred]

Originally Posted by Red Hot Scott How can a real fan be someone who "turns off bad wrestling?" That's like cheering for the Yankees just because they're popular, or cheering for the Red Sox but only when they win.

Also, big difference. In sports, its real. The results aren't fixed, so you cheering on your team at a live game can actually help them win.

In the end, the WWE is a TV show with athletes. For example, no matter how hard you cheered last year, no one was beating Triple H. If they had booked HBK to win at Backlash, it wouldn't have made one difference what the Edmonton crowd did. So like any show, if you truly don't like it, top to bottom, turn it off. It's really the only effective response.

[Marc the Smark]

Originally Posted by PureHatred It's called being a fan of quality. Or of wrestling in general and not just the WWE. If enough people are watcing TV or ordering the PPV or supporting the WWE product in anyway when they think it's utter crap (not just one or two storylines, but just a complete waste of time) then the WWE has no incentive to change. Basically, as a consumer the only truly effective message you can send to the company is through your dollar.

Ahhhh. This makes sense now, and I see what you mean. We can complain to each other about the product, but the WWE doesn't care. The only "effective response" to an angle we're not happy with is to stop watching the shows. But still, and correct me if I'm wrong, the WWE doesn't care about us. They're more concerned, for better or for worse, about those who don't use the internet. So if those people are still watching, then the WWE is happy.

[BasicThuganomics]

Originally Posted by PureHatred No...obviously it was good. That's why it started geting viewers. Let me be more clear: Tthe product improved and it started attracting more viewers. But when it was drawing huge numbers, it was a result of the mainstream fans. It's like the difference between being popular and being a full blown fad. I'm not saying that time period wasn't entertaining. I'm saying that the difference between Nitro and Raw getting 5's and 7's in the Nielsens is that group of people who were watching and just didn't know the difference. You can't seriously tell me you idn't know anyone in that era who couldn't tell you who Rick Steamboat was but could recite Road Dogg's entire pre-match monologue.

at the Ricky Steamboat and Road Dogg comparison. you get repped for that

But If people hadn't wathced Wrestling before and didn't know about people like Flair and Steamboat, it's not their fault. I mean people have to start from somewhere. Most people started watching during Attitude. If they had never watched before how would they know about Steamboat? It's not a bad thing that attitude was the first time alot of people had seen Wrestling. But if the product had stayed as good as it was back then, people who tuned in simply because wrestling was kool would have continued watching today.


I'm not sure if that makes sense? I'm just making up shit now...

[Marc the Smark]

Let me throw this out there for your reflection and response. I'm not saying you have to agree with it. Hell, I'm not even sure that I do, but give it some thought...

It would be easier to enjoy the product if we weren't smart to it.

[tucsonspeed6]

Originally Posted by BasicThuganomics But If people hadn't wathced Wrestling before and didn't know about people like Flair and Steamboat, it's not their fault.

You got a good point there. To be a smark, you don't have to know any of the history. My girlfriend has only watched for the past year and thus didn't get the reference to the Bushwhackers that Eugene did on his Raw debut, but she has become a smark in such little time that it shocks me. She even catches some things quicker than I do.

[PureHatred]

To Basic, it makes perfect sense. If the WWE had maintained that Attitude quality they would've kept more fans than they lost. And if they hadn't botched the Invasion then they wouldn't have alienated all those WCW fans.

To RHS: maybe. But thats a personal choice.

[Marc the Smark]

Originally Posted by PureHatred To RHS: maybe. But thats a personal choice.

Very true, but staying away from the internet would also make us uneducated (like someone already said). It's like, "damned if you do, damned if you don't." That's the problem. It's nice to be "smart," and to know the backstage stuff (though most of us know very little), but that takes a lot of the fun out of it. Easy example... the Jeff Hardy rumors. If that's true and it happens, we won't be surprised, because we're on the net. The people who aren't will "mark out" if it happens, and will have a great time doing it. God Bless them.

Also, see what you think about this... I've been watching the WWF/E since 1984, and went to WrestleMania XX last month. It was a nice experience, and I'm glad I went, but it was kind of a disappointment (except for when Benoit won). It just wasn't that exciting.

Now, that might be because none of my friends were with me, and I had no one to share the experience with, or it might be because I'm not 10 anymore. Like Bobby Heenan said, "the magic is over." They've "taught" the audience how to do the tricks. And see to me, that's very sad. It's sad to see how much the business has changed; because even though I still like it alot, it's just not the same as it was when I was a kid. I'm sure a lot of you feel the same way. Imagine how the legends feel. You think these Hall of Famers that were at WM in the Garden didn't have mixed feelings about it? Please.

So anyway, to answer the question, I say "maybe." Maybe it's better to be a total mark, because I bet it's more fun that way.

[BasicThuganomics]

[QUOTE=PureHatred]To Basic, it makes perfect sense. If the WWE had maintained that Attitude quality they would've kept more fans than they lost. And if they hadn't botched the Invasion then they wouldn't have alienated all those WCW fans.
[=QUOTE]

NOt even the Invasion angle, having Taker and Kane in main events after WMX7 (the best PPV ever IMO) is what started the downfall too. It was almost an immediate thing after X7 that WWE started to suck. Invasion could have saved the WWE after Taker/Kane bored us all. But of course it was totally FUBAR.
And we don't even need to start on NWO reforming....

[spd10000]

Come join in on this lively discussion. Help the Red Hot Snot reach 100 replies.

Interesting topic.

[Marc the Smark]

Originally Posted by spd10000 Come join in on this lively discussion. Help the Red Hot Snot reach 100 replies.

[CosaNostra]

To get back to that level of "Markness", all I do is go back and watch some of the old Clash of The Champions, The Great American Bash, or before Wrestlmania 5. Those Rhodes/Flair and Freebird/Von Erich epics get me there every time.

To me. there is no reason why, at the same time, someone can't be a "Mark" and a "Smark"; to enjoy the product immensly, yet with enough cynicism to know whats what. You create your magic.

[Marc the Smark]

Originally Posted by cosanostra1971 To get back to that level of "Markness", all I do is go back and watch some of the old Clash of The Champions, The Great American Bash, or before Wrestlmania 5. Those Rhodes/Flair and Freebird/Von Erich epics get me there every time.

The article also makes mention of the Hulk/Andre match at WM III. Sure, when we look back at it now, the workrate was poor, but (at the time) the match was just as intense as the Raw main event from WM XX. Remember the false ending? Remember when Hogan bodyslammed Andre? The Silverdome roof exploded!

Now, if that were 2004, and you put 94,000 smarks in there, you'd probably only get "boring" chants and "boos" like we wouldn't believe.

To me. there is no reason why, at the same time, someone can't be a "Mark" and a "Smark"; to enjoy the product immensly, yet with enough cynicism to know whats what. You create your magic.

Because it just isn't that easy.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Originally Posted by Red Hot Scott It would be easier to enjoy the product if we weren't smart to it.

That depends. At this point you're also getting into the "sports entertainment" arguement. If I were a mark, I'd probably enjoy certain storylines more... If I actually believed that Undertaker was a deadman, or HHH really was unstoppable, than maybe.

However, when you watch pro wrestling, or watch a match by itself ( like downloading a puroresu match or a RoH match, or buying tapes), I can sit down and watch some of those matches, and not only be totally into it, but I can mark out in parts of it. For me, being a mark or being a smark has little influence on my enjoyment of an actual match. It's when you bring in the entertainment aspect, and want to make a "product" as a whole where the smark issue starts to come in....

Seriously though, download a match like Misawa Vs Kawada ( either the hour long match, or the one with the ganso bomb spot) and see if being a mark or being a smark honestly affects how much you enjoy that match...

And to what was said earlier, I am a fan of wrestling, not just the WWE. If I stop watching WWE, that does not mean I am not a true wrestling fan... The fact that I turn off the bad and actively search for the good means I am a true wrestling fan, maybe more so than those who just sit and watch WWE no matter how bad they get.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by BasicThuganomics I didn't say that wrestling was great because it was popular. I said that the reason wrestling was popular a few years ago was because it was better back then. And IMO wrestling product was much better a few years ago.

It was better, but it was also trendy. Decrease in ratings and decrease in quality aren't totally tied in this case, because the wrestling fad wore off while the product was still pretty good.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Red Hot Scott How can a real fan be someone who "turns off bad wrestling?" That's like cheering for the Yankees just because they're popular, or cheering for the Red Sox but only when they win. I'm not trying to argue that you're not a "real" fan, just trying to understand what you mean. And no, I don't buy the merchandise just to support the show.

Don't confuse popularity with quality.

Also, don't confuse sports with pro wrestling.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Red Hot Scott Ahhhh. This makes sense now, and I see what you mean. We can complain to each other about the product, but the WWE doesn't care. The only "effective response" to an angle we're not happy with is to stop watching the shows. But still, and correct me if I'm wrong, the WWE doesn't care about us. They're more concerned, for better or for worse, about those who don't use the internet. So if those people are still watching, then the WWE is happy.

The fewer people that watch, the fewer sponsors they get, the less money they rake in.

If enough people give up, that says something. Notice how quick they dropped the Katie Vick angle, despite Vince thinking it to be brilliant?

They don't like us, but they do like money. And when it comes to cash, we're all the same color: Green.

[Marc the Smark]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight The fewer people that watch, the fewer sponsors they get, the less money they rake in. If enough people give up, that says something. Notice how quick they dropped the Katie Vick angle, despite Vince thinking it to be brilliant? They don't like us, but they do like money. And when it comes to cash, we're all the same color: Green.

Gotcha. But how many fans are on the internet? Aren't we a minority?

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Originally Posted by Red Hot Scott Gotcha. But how many fans are on the internet? Aren't we a minority?

I doubt it... Think back to WM 20. It seemed like everybody there knew about Brock and GOldberg leaving. The internet is a very common thing, and there's no reason to believe that wrestling fans don't look up wrestling on the internet.

[PureHatred]

Originally Posted by Red Hot Scott Gotcha. But how many fans are on the internet? Aren't we a minority?

I'd say we're a growing minoriy. Eventually even casual viewers start checking out websites and they get addicted to the rumors and the community in general.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Red Hot Scott Gotcha. But how many fans are on the internet? Aren't we a minority?

If we are such a minority:

Why does the WWE have wwe.com?

Why does it sell merchandise via WWE shopzone?

Why does it have PPV webcasts?

Why does the WWE blame the internet for killing wrestling? I mean, if the internet's singlehandedly caused their business to go from drawing buyrates of 8.X to the current standings, then it must logically be a formidable force.

[Vega]

I've been a hell of a lot harder to please since becoming a smark, I know that much.

[Kane Knight]

Tell me about it. Even the Dominatrix gear doesn't do it for you anymore.

[Marc the Smark]

Okay, but if the internet fans are so important to them, why are they always dissin' us?

[Kane Knight]

One word. Scapegoat.

[Kane Knight]

BTW, I don't actually believe smarks are killing wrestling, I just threw that one out because the logic is such total shit.