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Old 02-24-2011, 04:10 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seapig4 View Post
Was Flair ever really over as a face?
yes he was

go back and check out his 1983 run in Jim Crockett Promotions

He and Harley Race had a fantastic feud


This clip here tells you how over he was as a face
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Old 02-24-2011, 04:49 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Aguakate View Post
There's only one "greatest of all time", and his name is "The Heartbreak Kid" Shawn Michaels.

Ric Flair probably was alot of wrestlers' inspiration, and they probably saw him as "the greatest" because of his "gimmick", his charisma, his mic ability, but he wasn't that great of an ACTUAL wrestler.

HBK combines all that, PLUS he was the best in the ring.
I always hate to do this because it makes me sound like I don't appreciate how good Shawn Michaels was, which isn't true. But there is more to being "the greatest" than being the best in the ring. Let me go by the same criteria I was judging Ric Flair on...

Shawn Michaels is the greatest of all time as far as in-ring ability is concerned.

Shawn Michaels is good on the mic probably Top 20 maybe Top 15 but not Top 10 of all time.

Shawn Michaels is probably between 15th and 10th when it comes to draw.

Shawn Michaels doesn't even rank as far as putting others over is concerned. Shawn Michaels has never "made" a fellow wrestlers career by having them go over on him. Not one. He was a main eventer in the WWF from '96 to '98 and from '02 to '10... That is over 11 years as a main eventer in the WWE and he never made one guy? This fact alone disqualifies him as far as "Greatest of All Time" is concerned.

Shawn Michaels also doesn't rank when it comes to willingness and capability of being face or heel. Don't get me wrong Shawn Michaels was a great heel and was also a great face. But with the exception of one month in the Summer of '05 Shawn Michaels hasn't been a heel in over a decade. Though he has the ability to be a heel he doesn't have the willingness to be a heel. Which is why he doesn't rank.
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Old 02-24-2011, 05:24 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
Once you get to a certain level of talent, it becomes personal preference, really. There is no definitive greatest.
You can argue the pros/cons of wrestlers all day, everyone measures it differently just look at the better wrestler polls.
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Old 02-24-2011, 05:27 PM   #44
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Like Al Snow said in a recent interview, It's not just in ring ability, it's about who draws amongst other factors more so in terms of who's "the best" is very debatable.
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Old 02-24-2011, 05:31 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by whiteyford View Post
You can argue the pros/cons of wrestlers all day, everyone measures it differently just look at the better wrestler polls.
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Originally Posted by The Pope View Post
Like Al Snow said in a recent interview, It's not just in ring ability, it's about who draws amongst other factors more so in terms of who's "the best" is very debatable.
Yeah, it's very subjective. It's all about your own criteria.
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:09 PM   #46
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Well, I'm willing to hear other opinions. Who do you think is better and more willing to turn heel or face and who is better at making superstars and putting others over?
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Originally Posted by The Show Off View Post
I always hate to do this because it makes me sound like I don't appreciate how good Shawn Michaels was, which isn't true. But there is more to being "the greatest" than being the best in the ring. Let me go by the same criteria I was judging Ric Flair on...

Shawn Michaels is the greatest of all time as far as in-ring ability is concerned.

Shawn Michaels is good on the mic probably Top 20 maybe Top 15 but not Top 10 of all time.

Shawn Michaels is probably between 15th and 10th when it comes to draw.

Shawn Michaels doesn't even rank as far as putting others over is concerned. Shawn Michaels has never "made" a fellow wrestlers career by having them go over on him. Not one. He was a main eventer in the WWF from '96 to '98 and from '02 to '10... That is over 11 years as a main eventer in the WWE and he never made one guy? This fact alone disqualifies him as far as "Greatest of All Time" is concerned.

Shawn Michaels also doesn't rank when it comes to willingness and capability of being face or heel. Don't get me wrong Shawn Michaels was a great heel and was also a great face. But with the exception of one month in the Summer of '05 Shawn Michaels hasn't been a heel in over a decade. Though he has the ability to be a heel he doesn't have the willingness to be a heel. Which is why he doesn't rank.
This whole notion of 'willingness to turn face or heel' is ridiculous. By that reckoning, Ricky Steamboat is one of the worst ever and some mong that's been turned every 5 minutes is 'up there'. Putting others over in the way you describe is also a bit daft, making somebody else's career has jack shit to do with an 'overall ranking'. By this reckoning, if Bill Goldberg had the talent of Shawn Michaels, he still 'wouldn't rank' because he was booked as a monster who's job it wasn't to make other people look good. And that says nothing about the actual performer. You maybe need ability, mic skills/'believability factor', 'star quality' and at a stretch, drawing power. But even that doesn't mean shit, since somebody like HBK or Bret were on top during a slump in the business. The rest are pretty redundant.
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:16 PM   #47
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There are too many factors to just say he's the greatest but he definitely is part of the Top 10 or elite ranks of wrestlers in history.

He was great in NWA, didn't do much in WWF both times (2nd time was more due to his age), and WCW tended to misuse him a lot of times especially during the trips to his hometown.

He might not have been the most athletic or technical in wrestling skills but made it up with great promos and charisma skills. Probably the only wrestler who could get the crowd to cheer by elbow dropping his coat without everyone assuming he's insane.

The "Wooooooo" might be the greatest catchphrase in history due to its longevity and the crowd loving to mimic it when Flair says it or for random stuff.
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:19 PM   #48
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Maybe we could get a TPWW 50 or 100 or something going, agree on criteria, pound posters into submission to make them participate and try to come up with some variety of TPWW greatest of all time list schtick. Don't recall attempting or seeing much along those lines on here ever really.
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:20 PM   #49
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Or top 20 with some 'honourable mentions', maybe write ups for them, lovely sparkly pictures etc blah blah.
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:21 PM   #50
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No idea who I'm actually saying this to
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:21 PM   #51
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BTW, Shawn Michaels put over Chris Jericho, making him one of the Most Hated heels in recent memory.
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:27 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
This whole notion of 'willingness to turn face or heel' is ridiculous. By that reckoning, Ricky Steamboat is one of the worst ever and some mong that's been turned every 5 minutes is 'up there'. Putting others over in the way you describe is also a bit daft, making somebody else's career has jack shit to do with an 'overall ranking'. By this reckoning, if Bill Goldberg had the talent of Shawn Michaels, he still 'wouldn't rank' because he was booked as a monster who's job it wasn't to make other people look good. And that says nothing about the actual performer. You maybe need ability, mic skills/'believability factor', 'star quality' and at a stretch, drawing power. But even that doesn't mean shit, since somebody like HBK or Bret were on top during a slump in the business. The rest are pretty redundant.
Willingness and ability to be heel or face is just one of 5 criteria I use, so if you're not ranked in that one criteria doesn't mean you're useless. Ricky Steamboat doesn't rank there because he's always been face, but he's still great. And Goldberg is held accountable for never putting anyone over, that is a big mark against him.

As far as putting others over meaning "jack shit" is just a place where you and I disagree. I think putting others over is very important to show if you were a "great" wrestler. Wrestling is a perpetual story, and part of your job as a wrestler is making sure you've continued that story and helped it move forward (as well as being entertianing in the time you are there). Ric Flair made guys like Sting and Lex Luger who did a lot for the buisness themselves. Its very important that he got those guys over to continue the story of professional wrestling. "Making stars" is very important that's one of the reasons WCW was losing ratings and its the reason TNA isn't growing. So I think its very important when it comes to being considered a great.

Don't get me wrong though based on my 5 criteria even though HBK doesn't rank on two of them he's still one of the 5 best of all time because like I said in the ring he's the best ever and on the mic he was great, and he was a draw.
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:29 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguakate View Post
BTW, Shawn Michaels put over Chris Jericho, making him one of the Most Hated heels in recent memory.
Chris Jericho was all ready a main eventer 7 years before that.
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:32 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Show Off View Post
Chris Jericho was all ready a main eventer 7 years before that.
Did I say he made him a Main Eventer?

I said HBK, by letting Jericho beat him up, and beat him a couple times, put Jericho over as one of the most hated HEELS of all time. Jericho had been a heel before, but he never reached the level of heat that he reached when he worked with HBK.
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:37 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Show Off View Post
Willingness and ability to be heel or face is just one of 5 criteria I use, so if you're not ranked in that one criteria doesn't mean you're useless. Ricky Steamboat doesn't rank there because he's always been face, but he's still great. And Goldberg is held accountable for never putting anyone over, that is a big mark against him.

As far as putting others over meaning "jack shit" is just a place where you and I disagree. I think putting others over is very important to show if you were a "great" wrestler. Wrestling is a perpetual story, and part of your job as a wrestler is making sure you've continued that story and helped it move forward (as well as being entertianing in the time you are there). Ric Flair made guys like Sting and Lex Luger who did a lot for the buisness themselves. Its very important that he got those guys over to continue the story of professional wrestling. "Making stars" is very important that's one of the reasons WCW was losing ratings and its the reason TNA isn't growing. So I think its very important when it comes to being considered a great.

Don't get me wrong though based on my 5 criteria even though HBK doesn't rank on two of them he's still one of the 5 best of all time because like I said in the ring he's the best ever and on the mic he was great, and he was a draw.
You can't hold the fact that Goldberg was booked as a monster against him. Was he supposed to go to the office and ask for a 'bit less of a push' or something?

And I didn't say putting guys over means jack shit, only in the context you seemed to make out in the last post. Guys that can do that deserve the positives for sure, guys that can get themselves and the opponent over at the same time even more so. Flair for example made guys look like a million dollars, usually at the end of a run where he's being chased for the belt by a blue eye. Hulk Hogan went over everybody for about 6 years, he was far and away the #1 guy and he made guys plenty of money when he was on top for Vince. The fact he didn't bump all over the gaffe for them (which he absolutely shouldn't have done) shouldn't be held against him. Not to mention plenty of guys get over/'are made' on ability/themselves alone.
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:45 PM   #56
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No.

Wrestling is a business. The point of a business is to make money. Hulk Hogan made more money for himself and his employers than any other wrestler. Thus Hogan is the greatest wrestler of all-time.

edit: Inoki and Onita may be able to dispute my claim. I don't know how much Inoki made in his prime and I heard that Onita was worth nearly $0.5 billion when FMW was really rocking?
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:33 PM   #57
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Wrestling is a business. The point of a business is to make money. Hulk Hogan made more money for himself and his employers than any other wrestler. Thus Hogan is the greatest wrestler of all-time.
i disagree with this reasoning. movies are also a business, but i wouldn't automatically believe that the actor who made the most money ever is the greatest actor of all time.

wrestling is it's own unique, strange artform. to judge careers in it by comparative money draw alone erroneously ignores factors (i.e. cultural impact) and includes others (i.e. marketing).
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:05 PM   #58
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____________________________________________________________________
Didn't read anything below ^ line.

Thread Answer: Yes.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:11 PM   #59
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____________________________________________________________________
Didn't read anything below ^ line.

Thread Answer: Yes.
You mean "above" the line? Because "below" would be what you wrote.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:44 PM   #60
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Old 02-25-2011, 04:46 PM   #61
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You mean "above" the line? Because "below" would be what you wrote.
I start from the last post and usually work my way up.
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Old 02-25-2011, 08:39 PM   #62
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Old 02-25-2011, 10:26 PM   #63
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