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Old 03-01-2011, 10:25 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
I'm pretty sure the point she was making was that most successful stables started out as heel factions.
ABT supplemented that with the point that the very notion of a stable/faction implies semi-heel behavior. It's gang mentality and usually serves to give wrestlers an edge by having a crew.

So what is really the problem with those points?
I agree with both, tbh.

If it's so untrue, I'd like to see a list of notable stables that started out as faces. Citing that nWo and DX were huge face factions is irrelevant. A total red herring.
They started out as heel groups and functioned as such for some time. Just because they got super popular and sold merch, doesn't change that. That's because they were cool heels. That's like saying Stone Cold and The Rock didn't get over as heels because they ended up turning face in the same gimmick and selling lots of shirts. Has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

They were heels when they started. Fact not opinion. And I don't know why singles careers got dragged into the pot. But, I'm still drawing a blank on stables that started out as face factions. I'm sure there have to be a few, but I certainly can't think of any very successful ones at the moment.
I didn't dispute that they started out as heels. The only point I made was that they made money as faces, which is all that mattered. Making whether they start as heels or not redundant. If the story had called for them to start out as faces, they'd have been equally as successful. The success is down to the timing, the writing and most importantly, the performers. The notion that being heel is some kind of pre-requisite for success on other levels is what the discussion turned into. Which, as you pointed out, is also redundant.
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:25 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
This is all off topic. What about stables?
There haven't ever really been any good face stables.
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:26 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Aguakate View Post
You look back in history, and most wrestlers who became great faces, were heel before that.
Well, have you considered that maybe that's because by the time one gets to the top, they've been around a few years and they've seen a few gimmick or character changes?
That's the business. Especially with up and comers in the midcard. So you can look back on any rising career and pull out that they were once a heel.
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:27 PM   #44
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Ewww, remember Survivor Series 97? There was all that gang warfare going on between Los Boricuas, DOA, and the NOD? Fucking brtl, as Spilchuk would say.
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:27 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguakate View Post
You look back in history, and most wrestlers who became great faces, were heel before that.
What? It's professional wrestling. That's like saying 'every hockey player has probably changed his skates at some point' or 'every successful guy in the NFL has probably played for more than one team'. Only this is amplified in wrestling because some guys can turn every 6 months. You're missing the point here. Which, by now, I think is completely and utterly lost.
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:58 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla View Post
There haven't ever really been any good face stables.
This is the point that people are trying to make.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:06 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
2 stables. 'Starting out heel' is clearly not a pre-requisite for success.

And of course it doesn't apply to singles guys. Rock didn't start as a heel in WWE. Ditto Cena. Ditto Orton. Ditto HBK. Ditto Warrior. Ditto Edge. And so on and so on.

Still not seeing any kind of point here.
Did you read what I said? Rock was a fucking joke in his inital face run his big break came as a cool heel. Orton was low midcard until he turned heel, Cena was low mid card until he turned heel, Edge was heel very shortly after he debuted and his first major run as a main evener was as a heel.

I was just pointing out that for a lot of guys being heel was where they really started to get over.

As for stables there have been two face stables in the past hmm 15 years or so The Union which was created directly from a heel table and the Filthy Animals
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:11 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
Yeah, that's all common knowledge but I took her saying 'got her break' as in 'started out' on TV/WWE debut since her examples are all different successes on different levels (example Triple H was way more over as a face than as a posh heel before going heel again/title push, Austin's real 'overness' came as a face from March '97, Cena was getting cheered for some time before they switched him face for his 'breakout' etc) I don't think even Lara Emily knows what point she is trying to make here.
HHH got over in DX as a heel (and yes he was booed), Austin won KOTR and gave birth to Austin 3:16 as a heel, when I said got their break I mean just that the moment they started truly getting over.

BTW with Cena you are highlting my exact point, one of the best ways to eventually become a massively over face is to break into the main event scene as a cool heel.

Are you purposely being an idiot or something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
Well, have you considered that maybe that's because by the time one gets to the top, they've been around a few years and they've seen a few gimmick or character changes?
That's the business. Especially with up and comers in the midcard. So you can look back on any rising career and pull out that they were once a heel.
No no the argument isn't that faces were at some point heels it's that a lot of the major faces got to be major faces because of how over they got as heels right before they turned face.

The list includes: Rock, Austin, HHH, HBK, Randy Orton, John Cena, Batista, Razor Ramon, Diesel, Ric Flair and the list goes on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
I'm pretty sure the point she was making was that most successful stables started out as heel factions.
ABT supplemented that with the point that the very notion of a stable/faction implies semi-heel behavior. It's gang mentality and usually serves to give wrestlers an edge by having a crew.

So what is really the problem with those points?
I agree with both, tbh.

If it's so untrue, I'd like to see a list of notable stables that started out as faces. Citing that nWo and DX were huge face factions is irrelevant. A total red herring.
They started out as heel groups and functioned as such for some time. Just because they got super popular and sold merch, doesn't change that. That's because they were cool heels. That's like saying Stone Cold and The Rock didn't get over as heels because they ended up turning face in the same gimmick and selling lots of shirts. Has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

They were heels when they started. Fact not opinion. And I don't know why singles careers got dragged into the pot. But, I'm still drawing a blank on stables that started out as face factions. I'm sure there have to be a few, but I certainly can't think of any very successful ones at the moment.
Yeah I shouldn't have brought up singles, I was just making an observation that much like stables most of the major success stories of modern wrestling all got their big break as heels and all started getting over as heels.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:28 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Emily View Post
Did you read what I said? Rock was a fucking joke in his inital face run his big break came as a cool heel. Orton was low midcard until he turned heel, Cena was low mid card until he turned heel, Edge was heel very shortly after he debuted and his first major run as a main evener was as a heel.

I was just pointing out that for a lot of guys being heel was where they really started to get over.

As for stables there have been two face stables in the past hmm 15 years or so The Union which was created directly from a heel table and the Filthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Emily View Post
HHH got over in DX as a heel (and yes he was booed), Austin won KOTR and gave birth to Austin 3:16 as a heel, when I said got their break I mean just that the moment they started truly getting over.

BTW with Cena you are highlting my exact point, one of the best ways to eventually become a massively over face is to break into the main event scene as a cool heel.

Are you purposely being an idiot or something?
You ask me if I'm purposely being an idiot two sentences after explaining yourself, so you clearly realize that you weren't being very clear with what you were on about. So are you purposely being a bit of a twat or ?

And I still can't believe you are still banging on about the singles guys. Have you read anything I've posted on this 2nd page? My god.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:36 AM   #50
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Face factions tend to suck. Stables and factions are best suited for heels due to the numbers game.

If the good guys got organised, there would be very little drama.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:42 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
You ask me if I'm purposely being an idiot two sentences after explaining yourself, so you clearly realize that you weren't being very clear with what you were on about. So are you purposely being a bit of a twat or ?

And I still can't believe you are still banging on about the singles guys. Have you read anything I've posted on this 2nd page? My god.
Dude you're the one who misinterpreted what I meant by big break. I didn't explain myself I reiterated myself in response to our stupid assumption that some how big break = debut, I purposely stated big break because I knew guys such as the Rock actually debuted as faces.You're the only one who read it as debut.

I did read what you said on page 2 means shit, massively over faces who gpt over big time by soley being a face are rare and usually get that by way of the monster push IE: Goldberg Hogan, Warrior

I never claimed all Big faces went the get over as a heel first route I just pointed out that history reflects that a lot (maybe even most) of them did. There's a reason for that too, major success stories are performers who the fans chose, who the fans wanted to like, it's much easier to start off being hated and get people to like you by just doing your thing, then to be forced into a babyface role and basically demand people like you (IE Rocky Maivia). To be frank it was an observation I shouldn't have made as it derailed the thread clearly. End of story is no major Face faction in recent history has been massively successful without starting off as heels, if you want to argue against that you are arguing against reality.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:50 AM   #52
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CTC had potential to be a successful face faction. They had 3 charasmatic and very over guys who seemed to be a decent fit to run together, get JC back a bit to the "edgy" Cena of old, and possibly do some things to get Shad and JTG something other than released and Superstars hell respectively.

What we could have had is 3 merch movers, one of which has something other to do than main event so someone else can be in that spotlight for a bit, and a push of the other two as more than just a tag team that will inevitably be split to feud... kind of like a face version of Legacy.

What we got was one JBL limmo vandalized and no one ever spoke of this to be a stable again.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:52 AM   #53
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Stables are a far better fit for heels, and quite honestly, there's no face right now who screams stable leader to me in the WWE.

As for the idea that a lot of great face wrestlers/stables have gotten over first by being heels, I think it has less to do with the fact that they were heels first, and more to do with the fact that heels tend to be more well defined characters than faces, especially in the midcard. Heels tend to have some sort of defining "edge" that makes people hate them (cocky heel, monster heel, cowardly heel, etc etc), and even then, each performer has some sort of riff on that. Face, especially in the WWE, and especially first time face runs in the midcard, just tend to be "good guys."

Its harder to get behind someone without much of a hook...when the heels turn, they riff on their heel character and still have that edge about them. But the faces, well, they never had as much character to stand on.
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Old 03-02-2011, 02:37 AM   #54
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Laughing
The Filthy Animals
Revolution

Face stables
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Old 03-02-2011, 02:47 AM   #55
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Quote:
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The Filthy Animals
Revolution

Face stables
Yup I never said there weren't any just not many.

I already mentioned Filthy Animals

Touche on Revolution totally forgot that they started as faces (I remember only mostly their work as heels)

So that's 4 in the past 15 years or so that started as faces

Heel Stables: nWo, DX, Ministry, Corporation, Corporate Ministry, Evolution, McMahon-Helmsley Faction, The Alliance, Nexus, New Nexus, SES, The Corre, The Hart Foundation, The Nation of Domination, The Nation, and there's probably more
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Old 03-02-2011, 04:06 AM   #56
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Old 03-02-2011, 04:09 AM   #57
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I once asked a friend why in the world he liked The Union, and he simply answer by posing the counter-question, "What's not to like about Big Show, Mankind, Shamrock and Test walking around with 2x4s?"

Touche.
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Old 03-02-2011, 04:21 AM   #58
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I once asked a friend why in the world he liked The Union, and he simply answer by posing the counter-question, "What's not to like about Big Show, Mankind, Shamrock and Test walking around with 2x4s?"

Touche.
Business 101: "K.I.S.S. - Keep it simple, stupid."
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Old 03-02-2011, 04:43 AM   #59
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Not a hugely successful stable, but could you say LWO started face? The story was Bischoff refused to push the Latino wrestlers and they felt they deserved the push.
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Old 03-02-2011, 05:11 AM   #60
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If the lWo was face it was for about 3 minutes as their one and only feud was with Rey Jr and Kiman and they were around for a grand sum total of 3 months.
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Old 03-02-2011, 07:06 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by AKin3D View Post
Not a hugely successful stable, but could you say LWO started face? The story was Bischoff refused to push the Latino wrestlers and they felt they deserved the push.
To be fair, with the WWE doing so well in Mexican markets, I kind of thought to myself the other day that the WWE could bring back the lWo. Should I be ashamed? Chavo Guerrero can be the leader, and you can maybe have Primo defect from RAW to join the group. Stick Los Aviadores from FCW with them, and you've got yourself a fun, but when grouped together sorta dangerous faction.

But many others have hit the nail on the head -- a bunch of faces working together makes them look weak individually. They can work, but it'd usually be out of a necessity to battle a larger foe. For example -- if a group formed to destroy Nexus or The Corre, it could be quite good.

Also, Lara Emily's points were spot-on in this thread. Do not know what CSL was spazzing on about. He's usually right on point, too.
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Old 03-02-2011, 07:33 AM   #62
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Not such a good idea, if only for the fact that WWE would find a way to make them the Mexicools all over again.
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:00 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Emily View Post
Dude you're the one who misinterpreted what I meant by big break. I didn't explain myself I reiterated myself in response to our stupid assumption that some how big break = debut, I purposely stated big break because I knew guys such as the Rock actually debuted as faces.You're the only one who read it as debut.
That is a big break to me. Showing up on WWE TV is the very definition of a big break. It was quite obviously short-sighted to assume everybody else thinks the same way and by the responses it seems they do but I just read your comment and responded, I don't tend to put much more thought into posting than that. Call it different perspectives or something. But stupid assumption? Child please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
To be fair, with the WWE doing so well in Mexican markets, I kind of thought to myself the other day that the WWE could bring back the lWo. Should I be ashamed? Chavo Guerrero can be the leader, and you can maybe have Primo defect from RAW to join the group. Stick Los Aviadores from FCW with them, and you've got yourself a fun, but when grouped together sorta dangerous faction.

But many others have hit the nail on the head -- a bunch of faces working together makes them look weak individually. They can work, but it'd usually be out of a necessity to battle a larger foe. For example -- if a group formed to destroy Nexus or The Corre, it could be quite good.

Also, Lara Emily's points were spot-on in this thread. Do not know what CSL was spazzing on about. He's usually right on point, too.
Show me where I'm doing anything but simply responding here. So many people's first reaction to disagreement on here is to jump to the 'taking it seriously'/getting angry line. Quite clearly no 'spazzing on' here Outback Jack.

Now can we get back 'on topic' or talk about Maryse's tatars or something?
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:05 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Hasney View Post
Revolution
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:06 AM   #65
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Looks like Vito if he'd have taken the dress gimmick 'all the way'.
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:46 AM   #66
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Instead of adding a new faction it would be better if they gradually had Corre build themselves up as faces kinda like how DX did and I could see it happening eventually too.
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:09 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
That is a big break to me. Showing up on WWE TV is the very definition of a big break. It was quite obviously short-sighted to assume everybody else thinks the same way and by the responses it seems they do but I just read your comment and responded, I don't tend to put much more thought into posting than that. Call it different perspectives or something. But stupid assumption? Child please.



Show me where I'm doing anything but simply responding here. So many people's first reaction to disagreement on here is to jump to the 'taking it seriously'/getting angry line. Quite clearly no 'spazzing on' here Outback Jack.

Now can we get back 'on topic' or talk about Maryse's tatars or something?

You kept stating over an over that I didn't have a point, even though every one else in the thread knew what I was talking about (even if they didn't agree) then when I reiterated my point (not expanded, reiterated) for your benefit you claimed that as proof that I wasn't being clear earlier, again even though everyone else understood what I was saying. It's not a different a opinion, a different opinion would be I disagree with what you said here's why not you aren't saying anything, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Instead of invalidating my position based on your own misreading of my words, you could have asked for a clarification. Instead you cried that I didn't know what I was talking about and that I wasn't making a point, so sorry that's not a different perspective that's making a stupid assumption end of story.

Oh and saying whatever man I don't really think before I post, not exactly a winning argument either.

Have a nice day
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:30 PM   #68
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A WWE version of World Elite

Members:

Alberto Del Rio - leader
World Heavyweight Champion that forms the stable

Drew McIntyre - midcarder
Possible Intercontinental/Tag Team Champion

Vladimir Kozlov - muscle
Possible Tag Team Champion

William Regal - manager
Regal would play the role Ric Flair did in Evolution.
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:46 PM   #69
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fun fact as well when HHH took over DX and added X-Pac and NAO they were actually still heels. They still got boo'd a ton, though they got some pops too, but for the first while they still attacked faces and were still heels
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Old 03-02-2011, 04:18 PM   #70
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Lets not forget the Oddities!
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Old 03-02-2011, 04:32 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Emily View Post
You kept stating over an over that I didn't have a point, even though every one else in the thread knew what I was talking about (even if they didn't agree) then when I reiterated my point (not expanded, reiterated) for your benefit you claimed that as proof that I wasn't being clear earlier, again even though everyone else understood what I was saying. It's not a different a opinion, a different opinion would be I disagree with what you said here's why not you aren't saying anything, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Instead of invalidating my position based on your own misreading of my words, you could have asked for a clarification. Instead you cried that I didn't know what I was talking about and that I wasn't making a point, so sorry that's not a different perspective that's making a stupid assumption end of story.

Oh and saying whatever man I don't really think before I post, not exactly a winning argument either.

Have a nice day
lol 'Have a nice day ' The smugness of that is practically dripping on to my keyboard you utter tragedy.

I was going to respond to this properly but no matter how I respond, this is going to go on and on because you seem to think there's something going on other than what I'm actually saying to you, that I'm somehow trying to save face or something, that we're embroiled in some kind of war of words where only one person can win, that I wasn't really just not thinking anything into it and responding 'off the cuff' (brilliant observation btw, couldn't have at all been possible that I was talking about in this singular instance, this one thread I happened to be participating in whilst attempting to do about 8 other things where it became quite blindingly obvious I'd missed some kind of point for some kind of reason) If you actually believe that this is the case (which it seems to be by your ridiculously smug posting and your incessant need to try and prove that you are somehow right to keep banging on) please get the fuck over yourself. This thread has now been tedious (not the TPWW.net/forums poster) for almost as long as you have. I am done here.
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Old 03-02-2011, 04:43 PM   #72
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Lets not forget the Oddities!
Started as heels
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Old 03-02-2011, 04:53 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
lol 'Have a nice day ' The smugness of that is practically dripping on to my keyboard you utter tragedy.

I was going to respond to this properly but no matter how I respond, this is going to go on and on because you seem to think there's something going on other than what I'm actually saying to you, that I'm somehow trying to save face or something, that we're embroiled in some kind of war of words where only one person can win, that I wasn't really just not thinking anything into it and responding 'off the cuff' (brilliant observation btw, couldn't have at all been possible that I was talking about in this singular instance, this one thread I happened to be participating in whilst attempting to do about 8 other things where it became quite blindingly obvious I'd missed some kind of point for some kind of reason) If you actually believe that this is the case (which it seems to be by your ridiculously smug posting and your incessant need to try and prove that you are somehow right to keep banging on) please get the fuck over yourself. This thread has now been tedious (not the TPWW.net/forums poster) for almost as long as you have. I am done here.
Let's just summarize.

1. I make an observation, a point if you will
2. Instead of discussing what I said. You claim several times over that I was made no point and that I clearly had no idea what I was trying to say. All that despite everyone else getting what I was saying (even if they don't agree)
3. I reiterate my point, restating pretty much exactly what I said earlier, for your benefit
4. You use my restatement as evidence that I initially had no point
5. I show you that both statements are consistent with each other
6. You say well I wasn't really putting thought in to my posts
7. QED
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Old 03-02-2011, 04:59 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
I was going to respond to this properly but no matter how I respond, this is going to go on and on because you seem to think there's something going on other than what I'm actually saying to you, that I'm somehow trying to save face or something, that we're embroiled in some kind of war of words where only one person can win, that I wasn't really just not thinking anything into it and responding 'off the cuff' (brilliant observation btw, couldn't have at all been possible that I was talking about in this singular instance, this one thread I happened to be participating in whilst attempting to do about 8 other things where it became quite blindingly obvious I'd missed some kind of point for some kind of reason)
Re-usable posts are a thing of the future.
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Old 03-02-2011, 05:02 PM   #75
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Anyway back on topic

From Day 1 Face Stables rarely work, are often boring and is not something that needs to happen.
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Old 03-02-2011, 05:15 PM   #76
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I dunno I'm quite liking the concept of the heel stables atm. But I'm thinking some were down the line it'll end up The Core vs Nexus ....
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Old 03-02-2011, 05:22 PM   #77
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Few observations from this thread:

1) Surprisingly, Lara Emily is almost 100% in whatever he/she is saying. I almost completely agree with the observations made (I apologize - I'm not trying to be a 'dick', but I don't know if I am supposed to refer to you as a 'he' or 'she'....I apologize in advance).

2) I also really like the following stable idea proposed by Rated R Classic.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rated R Classic View Post
A WWE version of World Elite

Members:

Alberto Del Rio - leader
World Heavyweight Champion that forms the stable

Drew McIntyre - midcarder
Possible Intercontinental/Tag Team Champion

Vladimir Kozlov - muscle
Possible Tag Team Champion

William Regal - manager
Regal would play the role Ric Flair did in Evolution.
Perhaps in the future when one of Corre or Nexus dissolve, this stable can come to fruition. Nice thought.
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Old 03-02-2011, 05:39 PM   #78
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CSL i remember when you weren't a dick.
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Old 03-02-2011, 05:50 PM   #79
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Bless you.
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Old 03-02-2011, 06:07 PM   #80
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Quote:
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Business 101: "K.I.S.S. - Keep it simple, stupid."
Yes, the missing KISS stable! Supposedly WCW was planning to make an entire stable of wrestlers dressed like the members of KISS!



Personally, I'd rather see wrestler version of Spinal Tap. They can do the "get lost on the way to the ring" every week
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