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Old 03-02-2011, 11:25 PM   #41
Steveviscious89
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I think once Bret went to WCW, his drawing power went down the gutter because he was dreadfully misused from the beginning. Maybe his first outing with Flair was a good idea, but even that should have been built up to at least Super Brawl rather than just using a month to do it.
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:28 PM   #42
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So are we talking about stars that can't draw even if the booking was good? Because we all know bad booking helps to create the no draw.
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:29 AM   #43
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Saying Bret or Shawn weren't draws has always been laughable to me.

Sure, the company wasn't do as well during those years for a number of reasons, but neither of them were the problem. They were the solution, actually.
The company was floundering and on the brink of going under due to a lot of factors, but they still were doing business and selling tickets to stay afloat.
And how do you think they were doing that?
Do you think people were paying to see Savio Vega and Max Moon?

Bret and Shawn were drawing those shows and PPVs. They were the ONLY draws. Along with Undertaker.
Then Austin came along and the company went in new directions.
For that reason alone, they deserve credit.
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:37 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Steveviscious89 View Post
I think once Bret went to WCW, his drawing power went down the gutter because he was dreadfully misused from the beginning. Maybe his first outing with Flair was a good idea, but even that should have been built up to at least Super Brawl rather than just using a month to do it.
Plus, you have a political tug-of-war over the WCW World Heavyweight title at that time, which caused Bret to go after the secondary titles like the WCW United States Heavyweight title and the WCW World Television title.

And at that time, the aspect over in WCW, as Road Warrior Animal had said, if you're not a friend of the boss (Eric Jerkoff), you're not going to last long there.
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:12 AM   #45
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I guess it also depends on how long the wrestler was around. Take Stone cold or the Rock vs Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart. Rock may have been white hot but for a far shorter period.

Also, Ric flair saying "Bret didn't draw a dime." It just shows how senile Flair is. People weren't going to WCW shows to see Flair. They were there for the nWo.
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Old 03-03-2011, 03:41 AM   #46
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Old 03-03-2011, 04:10 AM   #47
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I guess it also depends on how long the wrestler was around. Take Stone cold or the Rock vs Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart. Rock may have been white hot but for a far shorter period.

Also, Ric flair saying "Bret didn't draw a dime." It just shows how senile Flair is. People weren't going to WCW shows to see Flair. They were there for the nWo.
From 1996 onwards, yes, but what about the 80s and first half of the 90s? Flair was WCW.
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Old 03-03-2011, 04:21 AM   #48
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The WWE is such a different business nowadays and over the past decade than wrestling always used to be.

As CSL said, it's a time where the champion isn't really carrying the company on their back anymore. There are 2 champions, 2 brands, and a huge roster that is full of stars.
A guy like Cena and Undertaker remains just as much of a draw and important regardless of the belt, and guys like RVD and The Miz are hard to judge as "drawing champions."
Obviously Cena and Orton are still the top dogs on Raw, regardless of who champion is.
WWE has made that motto evident.

I think a big part of how much of a draw you are in this day and age is merchandise sales.
People are coming to the arena to see WWE as a product, and all of their favorites. But who is moving merchandise and pulling a lot of weight in that collective cast of characters?
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Old 03-03-2011, 05:21 AM   #49
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:41 AM   #50
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Old 03-03-2011, 10:13 AM   #51
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I actually enjoyed Lashley during his push and was one of the few. I like how he went up against the big boys like Cena, Batista, Big Show and Umaga and not just mid-carders, heels and smaller guys.
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Old 03-03-2011, 10:21 AM   #52
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Lashley didn't do anything terribly (besides speak), but I just couldn't get into his matches...like, at ALL. I dunno.
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Old 03-03-2011, 10:27 AM   #53
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Add Viscera and Mark Henry to that list. It seems he was given a Goldberg push with opponents like that. I think for a lot of people it didn't work with them and I can see that as he doesn't have the intensity of Goldberg or someone like Heyman to be his voice. I hated that he was pushed like a huge star and went up against all these odds only to be defeated by Cena.
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Old 03-03-2011, 11:04 AM   #54
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If you you think Flair didnt draw post 96 you are an idiot. Once the NWO started going down the shitter, everyone wanted to see Flair. How many shows had the crowd chanting we want flair? He was the sole real big draw left in 1998 and 1999 once thye killed Goldberg.

Flair is still a draw today. A Legend like that puts butts in seats. If flair was coming back to the WWE at WM, you know most of you would buy it.
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Old 03-03-2011, 11:56 AM   #55
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u önly like flair cuz he is a trannie:he has tits and a cock. Seriously though, nobody would buy wm to see flair.
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Old 03-03-2011, 11:58 AM   #56
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Quote:
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I actually enjoyed Lashley during his push and was one of the few. I like how he went up against the big boys like Cena, Batista, Big Show and Umaga and not just mid-carders, heels and smaller guys.
For five minutes I was excited because I thought Bobby Lashley was the second coming of Brock Lesner then he opened his mouth to speak and I knew I was right.

BTW I wouldnt consider Jeff Jarrett a big star (seems to be a popular topic lately) in any sense of the word. He always came off to me as a poor mans Triple H, I mean during his 99-2000 heel run T
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:08 PM   #57
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I actually enjoyed Lashley during his push and was one of the few. I like how he went up against the big boys like Cena, Batista, Big Show and Umaga and not just mid-carders, heels and smaller guys.
For five minutes I was excited because I thought Bobby Lashley was the second coming of Brock Lesner then he opened his mouth to speak and I knew I was right.

BTW I wouldnt consider Jeff Jarrett a big star (seems to be a popular topic lately) in any sense of the word. He always came off to me as a poor mans Triple H.I mean during his 99-2000 heel run Triple H made me want to pay to see him get his ass kicked whereas Jarrett was concerned I couldn't have cared less.
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:23 PM   #58
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:43 PM   #59
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You could never say Rey wasn't a draw if you've ever been to a WWE event and been surprised by the sheer number of kids wearing Rey Mysterio shit.
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:49 PM   #60
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Scott Hall?

Dude, Razor Ramon was HOT back in the day...back then, you could argue that the Intercontinental Title was hotter then the WWF Belt, with better feuds and matches, and he won it 4 times, PLUS, he was one of the most popular wrestlers WWF had.
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Old 03-03-2011, 03:02 PM   #61
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RVD. I am pretty sure once he got to WWE never drew, but was just popular with the IWC.
this is the exact same thing that can be said for Daniel Bryan...
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Old 03-03-2011, 03:14 PM   #62
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Triple H, he always feuded with the wrestler that drew, don't be fooled.
Ive read alot of interviews with guys who said Triple H was a popular champion backstage because the house shows payoffs were always higher since he worked them.
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Old 03-03-2011, 04:06 PM   #63
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AJ Styles, being TNA's biggest (homegrown) star for 9 yrs and the company hasnt changed one bit.
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:20 PM   #64
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Triple H was a great champion because people wanted to see him foiled, and he always wrestled good matches.
The fans knew this. Why else do you think they gave him the ovation that they did upon his return in 2002?

People might not have been coming to see him like they did The Rock and Austin, but they were coming to see those guys get their hands on him.
He had tremendous heat, and was able to provide matches worthy of their money.

That's a draw. That's always been the business.

He was a shaky champion at first, no doubt. He floundered, but by the end of that year he was able to establish his heel character and by the time his feud with Foley and The Rock were underway, it was off to the races.
It just took a few months to get going, but it was an important transition in the company with Taker and Austin out for a year.

That's why I get a little frustrated when the WWE doesn't extend other first time champions that same confidence. Even though HHH was shaky, he was the focus of the main event and the top guy. They gave him time to right the ship.

With others, they often give up on them before granting them real time, and they never even place them at the top of the pile to begin with.
They give them the belt, but then continue to book them in the upper-midcard while the top dogs stay in the actual main event. What's the point?
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:32 PM   #65
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From 1996 onwards, yes, but what about the 80s and first half of the 90s? Flair was WCW.
However, in 1991 when Jim Herd fired Flair and Flair went to the WWF, Sting became THE man in WCW. And since Flair returned to WCW in February 1993 at SuperBrawl III, WCW fans were cheering for Sting a tad bit more than for Flair.
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:38 PM   #66
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I'm pretty sure Sting himself will tell you that Ric Flair was key to getting him over in the first place
Last edited by Jeritron; 03-03-2011 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:58 PM   #67
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There are a lot of wrestlers that have been mentioned that were never truly given the ball. If they were never in a position to draw money (being the main focus of television and PPV for a decent stretch of time), then how can we say whether or not they can?
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Old 03-03-2011, 09:13 PM   #68
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You mean because it isn't?

His international fame is proof positive that he was a draw
That's like David Hasslehoff saying he's big in Germany. If it doesn't happen in the U.S than it doesn't matter.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:20 AM   #69
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Kane???
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:33 AM   #70
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I'd probably go with Kane, too. I'm a huge mark for the guy, but he's never really been a huge merchandise seller, and he's never really been a PPV headliner. So I guess that's him not really being in the position to be, but I'd be interested to see just how much revenue Kane has brought in for the WWE. He might be the biggest star that has coasted behind other bigger names.
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:32 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Gertner View Post
That's like David Hasslehoff saying he's big in Germany. If it doesn't happen in the U.S than it doesn't matter.
That's idiotic.

Regardless Bret drew in the US too. Business was down period and as has been previously stated Bret/HBK/Taker were what kept WWF alive.
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Old 03-06-2011, 07:25 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Gertner View Post
That's like David Hasslehoff saying he's big in Germany. If it doesn't happen in the U.S than it doesn't matter.
Uhh, i'd beg to differ. Bret Hart was one, probably the biggest name to get a lot of my friends and me interested in the WWF and turn us in to fans. The one house show i've gone to in India was only because it had the Hitman as an assured attraction. As i was entering the stadium that night, i still remember most of the crowd sporting Bret Hart merch or bootlegged versions of his sunglasses - he drew in most of the Indian crowd.

And having read around, i'm sure it was the same for some of the other countries besides the US & Canada (where of course, he would be a draw)
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:42 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Aguakate View Post
Scott Hall?

Dude, Razor Ramon was HOT back in the day...back then, you could argue that the Intercontinental Title was hotter then the WWF Belt, with better feuds and matches, and he won it 4 times, PLUS, he was one of the most popular wrestlers WWF had.
I said Scott Hall not Razor Ramon. Razor was a supporting draw, held the mid card down tight, almost better than any IC Champ ever. But in WCW, he was not as big of a draw as Big Sexy. And when he had the company in his hand, when he was at the top, he fucked it up by being an idiot. He could have been so much more, hell he could have been the next Hollywood Hogan type of character if he would have stayed clean and left his ego at the door.

I am a huge Hall fan. I think Vince is an idiot for letting him and Nash go. However, it was quite clear he wasn't going to main event Wrestlemania for some reason.
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:50 PM   #74
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I'd be surprised if The Undertaker drew.
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:02 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
I'd be surprised if The Undertaker drew.
Is this a joke? If it is, meh. If not, are you kidding? When was the last time a Wrestlemania didn't feature the WWE Championship or World Heavyweight Title? Merchandise and PPV buys, tickets, ratings, are you nuts? Just think about what Wrestlemania will be like without The Undertaker someday. I understand you may be tired of The Undertaker, but come on! He has been is some of the biggest storylines from each era he has been in. I am at a loss at this remark and cannot fathom what you are thinking.
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:06 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I'd probably go with Kane, too. I'm a huge mark for the guy, but he's never really been a huge merchandise seller, and he's never really been a PPV headliner. So I guess that's him not really being in the position to be, but I'd be interested to see just how much revenue Kane has brought in for the WWE. He might be the biggest star that has coasted behind other bigger names.
How about being the World Heavyweight Champion at a time when SyFy was getting their biggest ratings ever? He has always been held down maybe for the right reasons because when he did explode and won Money in the Bank, went onto his latest feud with The Undertaker we saw him take the ball and run hard. So your right, he hasn't been booked as a draw for many years but when he was I'd say he did the damn job well. Also, think about the reaction he gets live (if you have seen him once or more). Kane is a WWE staple, and without him there would be a big hole in the roster.

Also, going way back he was a part of one of the greatest WWE stories of all time, in his debut and feud against the Undertaker, leading up to a huge match at Wrestlemania, which was without a doubt a PPV draw at the time.
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:13 PM   #77
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I can't believe some of the posts in this thread! Triple H, not a draw? Are you fucking kidding me? Triple H has spent well over a decade at the top of the biggest wrestling company in WORLD HISTORY. How is he not a draw? DX anyone? Several Wrestlemania main events, and none of them were reported as poor buy rates. A highly successful and entertaining rise to the top featuring a summer long feud with Mankind. Being apart of one of the coolest stables in history? One half of what is widely considered the best Summerslam title match of all time (98/The Rock). Think about all of the t-shirts this guy sales! He's on the cover of ever WWE game in like 10 years. I would bet a large amount of money that Triple H had drawn more than many "wrestling heros" such as Ric Flair, or Harley Race. Some of you people gotta get real and stop letting your emotions and opinions change fact to fiction.
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Old 03-08-2011, 04:30 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Jordan X View Post
Is this a joke? If it is, meh. If not, are you kidding?
Hehe.
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Old 03-08-2011, 05:23 AM   #79
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Anyone in TNA.
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:05 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by chrisat928 View Post
Anyone in TNA.
Your an idiot. Sting, Angle, Flair, Hogan, they all have drawn huge. And Impact! still does above average cable ratings. Chill.
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