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Old 05-09-2004, 06:40 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman
EXACTLY.

p.s. Does anyone else think that the WWF screwed themselves over by creating such 'productions' such as "Beyond The Mat", "Tough Enough", etc.,?

It was the WWE which broke kayfabe with their product.
WWE never produced Beyond The Mat but your point is still valid.

Who was it who went on national TV in the 1980's telling the world wrestling was fake? Oh it was Vince McMahon. Who let 2 independent production groups into his comeback to film backstage and break kayfabe? Vince McMahon maybe? Who was it who spent millions of dollars redesigning his web site and pulling his employees from doing any interviews on any site but his own? It might just have been Vince McMahon you know.
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Old 05-09-2004, 07:24 PM   #42
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Wow.

The guy posted an article on the internet complaining about how people on the internet complain too much.

The irony is thick and heavy.

OK, so I sorta agree that internet communities can be guilty of groupthink and criticism, but, goddamn, how different is that from any group of people offline? Of course, the guy says he encourages feedback, but you just KNOW he only wants it so he sneer at all the ignorant internet fans that are writing in.
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Old 05-09-2004, 07:34 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob
WWE never produced Beyond The Mat but your point is still valid.

Who was it who went on national TV in the 1980's telling the world wrestling was fake? Oh it was Vince McMahon. Who let 2 independent production groups into his comeback to film backstage and break kayfabe? Vince McMahon maybe? Who was it who spent millions of dollars redesigning his web site and pulling his employees from doing any interviews on any site but his own? It might just have been Vince McMahon you know.
Love your custom title.

Sorry I ruined Friends for you though.

p.s. Back on topic - I think because the WWE have really broken kayfabe with their product in recent years, they have become more 'restricted' with the gimmicks that they can use on TV. As result - they are almost forced to use more 'generic' characters on TV (such as "The Bashams, Mark Jindrak, Garrison Cade, Rodney Mack, Jaimie Noble Dave Batista, etc, etc., etc.).

Back in the late 90's, the WWE could freely use GIMMICKS and not have to feel embarrassed about whether the fans would think it's corny or not. You had the mysterious Brood, pornstar Val Venis,, PIMP Godfather, Lord of Darkness Undertaker, deranged Mankind, Goldust, Headbangers, Oddities, etc, etc, etc,.

The diversity and "intrigue" of the gimmicks is what helped get the fans interested

At the time - the fans BOUGHT into the fact that what they were watching "wasn't real"..............yet still ALLOWED themselves to be "caught up in the make-believe world".

THAT is why things back then (i.e. Undertaker sacrificing people, Rikishi running over Austin, Val Venis sleeping with everyone's wife, Kane being burned as a child, etc.) was ACCEPTED amongst the fans.

Today - you can't do that.

WHY!?!?!??! Because - the WWE "turned their backs" on their OWN product.

Instead of continuing with their "theatre mentality" from the late 90's/early 2000's, the WWE decided to try and come across as a borderline reality show.

If The Rock were to come out tommorow on Raw and was introduced as "Dwayne Johnson" should the fans be surprised?
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Old 05-09-2004, 07:39 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Hot Scott
PWTorch.com Guest Editorial
Michael Berman, Westford, Mass.
PWTorch.com reader

Well why is it that this is the only form of entertainment that 30-65 percent of an audience doesn't like but continues to watch?
Because maybe we hope it will get better. GOD FORBID we actually watch the next week of programming hoping that someone might go out and decide to have a 4 star match, or have a funny backstage segment. You are SO right. People who are optimistic like that are SUCH assholes.
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Old 05-09-2004, 08:56 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman
EXACTLY.

p.s. Does anyone else think that the WWF screwed themselves over by creating such 'productions' such as "Beyond The Mat", "Tough Enough", etc.,?

It was the WWE which broke kayfabe with their product.
And they were doing it before Tough Enough...
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Old 05-10-2004, 11:06 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman
Instead of continuing with their "theatre mentality" from the late 90's/early 2000's, the WWE decided to try and come across as a borderline reality show.

If The Rock were to come out tommorow on Raw and was introduced as "Dwayne Johnson" should the fans be surprised?
This was a good thing. However, gimmicks are always going to exist in pro wrestling.

The "theatre mentality" was poised to shoot WWE in the rear eventually. Stuff like the Al Wilson, Katie Vick, and Undertaker-vs-DDP debacles (the reason I list that last one is because it prominently featured Undertaker's wife, and she called him "Mark" on TV)...it would eventually wear thin. And it did. For now, I think WWE is slowly learning that some gimmicks just should be left to the wrestlers. After all, you don't see The Quebecers around anymore, do you? (Oh, wait...)

The lack of "gimmick names" that are popping up now is actually kind of cool. It's a lot like WCW was doing in the 90s (and before), before they started to imitate WWE.

WWE wrestlers like Stone Cold, The Rock, HHH, and Shawn Michaels are well established. There's no need to modify them. After all, the reason these guys have stuck around is because they took what could have been a dead-end gimmick and turned it more "real". That's what made WWE popular in the '90s, not the "theater" mentality. It's more "reality"-driven content is just the natural progression...
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Old 05-10-2004, 11:08 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
And they were doing it before Tough Enough...
Right. They let The Rock's "non-wrestling" name slip on actual WWE events more than once. Even in The Rock's first home video, he called himself "Dwayne Johnson".

They had A&E specials devoted to their wrestlers.

and in the case of Mick Foley...they realized they couldn't fool wrestling fans with a Mankind mask when they knew he was Cactus Jack from WCW and ECW. In fact, the breaking of kayfabe in his case was a big part of his WWE successes.
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Old 05-11-2004, 02:42 AM   #48
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Yeah, peeking behind the mask, playing on the real man behind the "legend," so to speak. Foley's real life has come into play quite often...

...Makes me wonder if he means all those shots I've heard him take at internet fans.
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Old 05-11-2004, 08:35 AM   #49
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This guy is complaining about the Net on the Net... How ironic.
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Old 05-11-2004, 12:54 PM   #50
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Yeah. It's almost as ironic as the WWE blaming the internet, but relying on it so heavily...
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Old 05-12-2004, 12:52 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
Who does Triple H entertain, anyways? He's been responsible for many a dead crowd. He's not entertaining the internet fans. He's not entertaining the casual fans, who have more or less abandoned the WWE.
It's only idiot smarks like yourself who think that shit
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Old 05-12-2004, 06:25 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John la Rock
It's only idiot smarks like yourself who think that shit
So people haven't stopped watching WWE because they got bored of HHH?

Tool!
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Old 05-13-2004, 02:13 AM   #53
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It wasn't the internet that ruined pro wrestling. It was pro wrestling that ruined the internet.
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Old 05-13-2004, 06:10 PM   #54
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I think that this guy who posted that will find that the internet hasn't ruined pro wrestling but having crappy storylines and god awful wrestlers such as JBL, hardcore holly and steiner getting main event pushes while people like rey mysterio, ultimo dragon, seano'haire, rhyno the hurricane etc real talent have nothing are the cause for some of the decline in wrestling
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Old 05-13-2004, 10:15 PM   #55
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I ruined pro wrestling. Pure and simple.
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Old 05-14-2004, 12:26 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batsu
...it prominently featured Undertaker's wife, and she called him "Mark" on TV)
Which is absurd, since everyone who was watchging WWF at the time of the Undertaker's debut knows that his first name is actually Kane.





















Wait a minute...
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Old 05-14-2004, 12:40 AM   #57
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Everyone talks about the "Monday Night War" being so good for the business. In a large picture, yes. In pieces of a puzzle, right now, you're seeing the aftereffects of it. That arguement was horribly executed by that guy.

Most people will complain when something sucks. Not because they are jaded. They can't always please us, they've said that. And it's true. However, when something sucks, we are still going to say it sucks. It doesn't mean we're turning off our TVs. Moron. Good thread by the way.
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