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Old 11-15-2012, 02:05 AM   #41
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Obviously I won't take Gertner seriously, but all of this Bret bashing from people who actually mean it needs to subside.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:09 AM   #42
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Owen had more range personality than Bret. Bret could only do the standard indie wrestling "grrr I'm tense and and want respect" promo.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:10 AM   #43
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Juan, I see you're in this thread. Please cross back over the border of this thread and leave.

Thank you.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:14 AM   #44
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I don't think it had as much to do with WCW not mowing what to do, as it did with the politics and glass ceiling.

Since 2002, the WWE has had many of the same problems on very frequent occassions.

There is just too much fear to give the ball to the new guy(s) while deviating from what is an established "sure" thing.

The only reason why the WWE went this route during the mid 90's with Austin, Rocky, Hunter, Mankind, etc., was because they had no choice.

After the Attitude era, the WWE had numerous chances to give the ball to the likes of RVD, Orton, Lesnar, CM Punk, etc. and push them the right way but failed miserably each time (for various reasons.....although some of it was brought Pom the wrestlers themselves)
This post is dead on.

Over the years, there have been some opportunities to cash-in and create some massive stars. Maybe they would not have been massively long-term draws, but few rarely are.

RVD was so super-over in 2001 that being aligned with the Alliance couldn't really damage him. Even if they gave him the WWE Title for a month before Austin turned on RVD, then you still could have made a lot of money off RVD merchandising sales. RVD's botch at the top of the company only came in 2006 -- five years later. There really wasn't another reported incident past that, either.

In 2004, Randy Orton was white-hot, and fucking Canada was happy to see him take the World Title off Chris Benoit. For some reason, though, the WWE found the need to have Triple H win the belt off Orton at Unforgiven just a month later. Was Orton ready to be a top face? Probably not. But they could have done many other things instead of putting Triple H over Orton. They could have had Orton hand the title over to Triple H, and resume being "the future" instead of "the present" he had proven he could be. They could have had Evolution turn on Triple H, and given him the role of being the top babyface on the RAW brand against the young lion that has replaced him. They could have had Evolution secretly take out Randy Orton, and have the World Title vacated, with Orton returning and revealing that it was Triple H behind the attack. The main event of WrestleMania 21 really should have been Orton facing Triple H in some sort of match, though.

2005 saw Christian and Matt Hardy swell up as two of the potentially most profitable stars in professional wrestling, and the WWE refused to follow it with either guy. Christian's charisma led to him getting smarky ovations all over the world. How did the WWE react to this? Well, they gave Christian one title match against Cena as part of a Triple Threat with Chris Jericho, and then they moved Christian to SmackDown where he worked with Booker T in what seemed like a purposely one-sided and under-developed feud.

Now, would Christian have been a breakthrough mega-star on the level of Stone Cold Steve Austin or The Rock? Probably not. But the WWE were so stubborn and didn't even give Christian a lick near the main event when so many people were calling for it.

Matt Hardy has proven to be an utter nutbag in recent years, but in 2005, he was the hottest thing in wrestling once the Edge/Lita/Matt stuff spread. They do a segment where Vince brings back Hardy, and what does Matt do? No, he doesn't drop Vince McMahon with a Twist of Fate for firing him in the first. He shakes Vince hand, meekly announces that it is great to be back, and then got his ass kicked at SummerSlam. The perfect result to Hardy vs. Edge at SummerSlam 2005 would have been Hardy getting disqualified against Edge -- looking to hurt his rival instead of just beating him.

Lots of moments have been avoided by the WWE to "stick to the plan," which clearly isn't always a long-term plan anyway. Fuck, this almost makes me want to see Ryback win the WWE Title at Survivor Series, just to try the guy near the top.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:15 AM   #45
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After losing at HITC, putting the belt on Ryback needs to happen now because of the situation the WWE has booked themselves in.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:16 AM   #46
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Owen Hart beating Bret Hart at WrestleMania X before Bret went on to become WWE Champion is one of my favourite things ever.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:17 AM   #47
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After losing at HITC, putting the belt on Ryback needs to happen now because of the situation the WWE has booked themselves in.
Even I would mark out if Ryback Shell-Shocked both Cena and Punk at the same time, stacked them on each other and got the pin.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:18 AM   #48
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A distressed Paul Heyman getting Shell-Shocked at Survivor Series would also make a lot of fans happy.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:21 AM   #49
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I still think that it should have been CM Punk vs. Vince McMahon at Hell in a Cell. Punk brutalising Vince would have been money.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:42 AM   #50
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Hold the fuck up. I've seen a huge portion of work from both Bret and Owen. I'm a HUGE Owen mark, but he was still no Bret.
this I'll agree with. Owen was not a guy who could have been "the man" because he really didn't care enough, whereas Bret took himself seriously and kicked ass and took names until he was the man.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:32 PM   #51
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Bret was a mark for himself while Owen had fucking perspective in life.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:53 PM   #52
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Bret was a mark for himself while Owen had fucking perspective in life.
Maybe so, but what makes a wrestler a legend? You may think you're Triple H's biggest fan, but I'm fairly certain Triple H is is Triple H's biggest fan.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:54 PM   #53
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Was Owen a better person than Bret? Possibly. Was Owen a better wrestler than Bret? Not really.
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:21 PM   #54
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I think Owen was more well rounded than Bret. Owen had way more range in his promos and character as well the different styles of matches he could work.
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:29 PM   #55
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Throw some classics on the table.
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:36 PM   #56
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Off the top of my head, I can think of:

Owen v. Bret @ Wrestlemania X (which involved Bret, so it's a wash)
Owen v. Bulldog for the European title (and Bret has a better Bulldog match)

Pretty much at a loss beyond that. You think Owen could have pulled a great match out of Diesel? Bret's more versatile than you're giving him credit for. Check his match with the 1-2-3 Kid to see a different side of him.

It pains me to type all of that, because I LOVE Owen, but when it comes down to it, you'd much rather have a Bret on your roster.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:12 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla View Post
Off the top of my head, I can think of:

Owen v. Bret @ Wrestlemania X (which involved Bret, so it's a wash)
Owen v. Bulldog for the European title (and Bret has a better Bulldog match)

Pretty much at a loss beyond that. You think Owen could have pulled a great match out of Diesel? Bret's more versatile than you're giving him credit for. Check his match with the 1-2-3 Kid to see a different side of him.

It pains me to type all of that, because I LOVE Owen, but when it comes down to it, you'd much rather have a Bret on your roster.
This. And yeah, Owen was definitely a better PERSON than Bret from all I've gathered..... but Bret being a mark for himself and believing he not only belonged at the top but WAS the top is what made him great.

Bret could have pillar to post BRAWLS with Diesel, Taker and Sid and it was believable, where Bret would give and take and the matches were great. Owen was very small (more short than anything, probably weighed close to what Bret weighed) and the "range" of matches against these types of guys was him being beaten up and selling for them.

Some of Owen's best work was in Japan mind you, some fucking epics with Jushin Lyger, Chris Benoit (as Pegasus Kid) and the like. Also had some great matches in Britain against Marty Jones. But this wasn't in the WWF realm, and was when Owen was younger and more mobile.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:16 PM   #58
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And as far as Bret's versatility goes. He could brawl with the guys I said, he could have technical masterpieces with Mr. Perfect, hard hitting bruising matches with Chris Benoit, emotionally charged struggles against Davey Boy and catch as catch can style matches against Shawn Michaels. Let's not forget his ability as a tag team specialist.

Pretty much James, you whine about people not liking HHH and yet scoff at Bret Hart. You're entitled to your opinion, you don't have to be a fan, but use your head. Look at the man's body of work, look at what he accomplished and think about why.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:21 PM   #59
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And as far as Bret's versatility goes. He could brawl with the guys I said, he could have technical masterpieces with Mr. Perfect, hard hitting bruising matches with Chris Benoit, emotionally charged struggles against Davey Boy and catch as catch can style matches against Shawn Michaels. Let's not forget his ability as a tag team specialist.

Pretty much James, you whine about people not liking HHH and yet scoff at Bret Hart. You're entitled to your opinion, you don't have to be a fan, but use your head. Look at the man's body of work, look at what he accomplished and think about why.
In the ring, Bret is almost untouchable. His promos were only ever "ok" at best barring a couple of promos in 97 where he was basically shooting. Owen was given DOGSHIT and made it entertaining. Put Bret Hart in the Blue Blazer gimmick and see if its even watcheable.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:15 PM   #60
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I think Bret's promos as a heel were more than "ok". Face Bret was pretty one dimensional.

Owen was definitely better on the stick.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:33 PM   #61
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Character-wise, I think Owen showed a lot more range and versatility. Bret never really evolved. The only difference was whether or not he was justified in thinking he was better morally/athletically/etc. than who he was facing.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:57 AM   #62
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Bret did evolve though, he had a longer career than Owen, and if you look at him from his days in Stampede to who he was as the Hitman he did a lot of growing as a character.

And Bret had to pay his dues as much if not more than Owen. He went from the bottom to the top. And even when he made it to the top, he still had to feud with Jean Pierre Lafitte and Isaac Yankem.....

If I were to compare the 2 personalities to the workers of today, I'd say CM Punk is like Bret. In the sense that he's openly pretty bitter and kind of a mark for himself and has forced his way to the top. Daniel Bryan is probably the better athlete of the two (just like Owen was WAY more athletic than Bret... honestly not even close in that category) and the better pure wrestler... and such a pro that he gets by on being so fucking good, but he doesn't strike me as the same kind of scratching and clawing dick that is CM Punk, and he doesn't seem a mark for himself like Punk. So he'll be like Owen... a guy you can put in a tag team and they'll be immediately a threat and very entertaining thus elevating the tag division by his presence, or a guy who can go on a secondary title run at any point (and in today's climate always be on the outskirts of the world title picture).
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:06 AM   #63
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Bret did evolve though, he had a longer career than Owen, and if you look at him from his days in Stampede to who he was as the Hitman he did a lot of growing as a character.

And Bret had to pay his dues as much if not more than Owen. He went from the bottom to the top. And even when he made it to the top, he still had to feud with Jean Pierre Lafitte and Isaac Yankem.....

If I were to compare the 2 personalities to the workers of today, I'd say CM Punk is like Bret. In the sense that he's openly pretty bitter and kind of a mark for himself and has forced his way to the top. Daniel Bryan is probably the better athlete of the two (just like Owen was WAY more athletic than Bret... honestly not even close in that category) and the better pure wrestler... and such a pro that he gets by on being so fucking good, but he doesn't strike me as the same kind of scratching and clawing dick that is CM Punk, and he doesn't seem a mark for himself like Punk. So he'll be like Owen... a guy you can put in a tag team and they'll be immediately a threat and very entertaining thus elevating the tag division by his presence, or a guy who can go on a secondary title run at any point (and in today's climate always be on the outskirts of the world title picture).
Pretty good analogy. I think it has more to do about personality than anything. Owen/DB loved wrestling but it didn't consume them if they weren't the "top guy". Bret and Punk feel truly offended, angry, and empty if they aren't the "top guy". Charisma wise, promo wise, etc., I think Bret has the least of the 4 in the analogy.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:22 AM   #64
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Even before he died he was great. He was even in line for a world title run right before he died
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:56 PM   #65
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Pretty good analogy. I think it has more to do about personality than anything. Owen/DB loved wrestling but it didn't consume them if they weren't the "top guy". Bret and Punk feel truly offended, angry, and empty if they aren't the "top guy". Charisma wise, promo wise, etc., I think Bret has the least of the 4 in the analogy.
But do they feel empty because they feel like the fans should OWE them more, or do they feel empty because they underestimate their own skills?

Reason I bring that up is this: While the "competition" aspect isn't there in terms of wins/losses, you still have to get your shit together to be at the top. So, wouldn't someone that has a true desire BE angry and upset if they weren't at the top? So long as they blame(d) themselves and no one else, this seems perfectly logical in the spirit of competition.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:13 PM   #66
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But do they feel empty because they feel like the fans should OWE them more, or do they feel empty because they underestimate their own skills?

Reason I bring that up is this: While the "competition" aspect isn't there in terms of wins/losses, you still have to get your shit together to be at the top. So, wouldn't someone that has a true desire BE angry and upset if they weren't at the top? So long as they blame(d) themselves and no one else, this seems perfectly logical in the spirit of competition.
Bret did everything but blame himself. Granted, somewhat warrented but he comes off like a bitter old jackass in the HBK/Hart rivalry DVD.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:53 PM   #67
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I need to watch that DVD. I kinda get where he is coming from, though. From a business standpoint, I get the screw job, but if I were in Bret's shoes, I would be a bitter old jackass too.

I may need to edit that last sentence till I watch that dvd
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:50 PM   #68
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Bret Hart worked a heavyweight style and Owen worked a Junior style.... When they met in the ring they had the best matches in the world at the time...

Owen had really good matches with others but his classics were with Bret. I don't think it's a great conversation Bret or Owen, Bret had so many more main event style matches as a babyface, where Owen was a head seeking missile that was in the middle of the card.

Back to Eddie.

The best match I have seen live was The Undertaker vs Eddie in a no dq at a house show. They were so much better than everyone on the card, even HBK that night...

I really wish I could have seen Eddie wrestle Daniel Bryan, Ziggler, and current CM Punk.
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:09 PM   #69
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Eddie had charisma and in-ring talent, which put asses in seats, which is MORE than enough, but then in 2005 in his heel turn during his feud with Rey he puts on this display of mic skill that I had never seen from him...it’s no wonder they were about to give him a second world title.

Eddie’s last ever title reign in WWE (4th WWE Tag Team Championship)




and 2 months later, on April 21st, just like that...it evaporates


The BEST (by FAR) damn Eddie promo (face OR heel) EVER!!!
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:43 PM   #70
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Why do people have so much trouble with "it?" The "it" factor here is no mystery. He was an amazingly likable, charismatic man, so much he could probably make Arizona cheer for a posse of illegal immigrants in 2012 if he were still alive. He was an awesome performer that could handle multiple styles, or at least work with them (a lot of performers aren't as versatile). He could work the microphone and the crowd.

What people usually describe as "it" is the culmination of multiple talents. Skill, charisma, etc. Kind of what Autobahn said, really. Eddie bordered on the perfect storm, and while the hype may have kicked up after he died, he was pretty well cemented as greatness before that.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:34 PM   #71
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While there is something to be said for your argument about heart, passion, charisma, mic skill, in-ring skill, etc., none of that even matters to your success as a main-eventer if you’re in WWE and don’t have that certain intangible/x-factor (no, not X-Pac’s move) that means that the fans love/hate you not just for your charisma but also for a certain unknowable reason that they can't help but just love/hate your character every time he/she is seen.

I’m 95% certain that same intangible/x-factor I just described is why his ex-wife gets all the heat she does every time the fans see or hear her.
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:38 PM   #72
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Why do people have so much trouble with "it?" The "it" factor here is no mystery. He was an amazingly likable, charismatic man, so much he could probably make Arizona cheer for a posse of illegal immigrants in 2012 if he were still alive. He was an awesome performer that could handle multiple styles, or at least work with them (a lot of performers aren't as versatile). He could work the microphone and the crowd.

What people usually describe as "it" is the culmination of multiple talents. Skill, charisma, etc. Kind of what Autobahn said, really. Eddie bordered on the perfect storm, and while the hype may have kicked up after he died, he was pretty well cemented as greatness before that.
That is perhaps the best Kane Knight post ever made. Take it in, folks.
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:42 PM   #73
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What do you think charisma is, DAMN iNATOR?
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:26 PM   #74
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I'd take a guess at dead mackerel eyes.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:16 PM   #75
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Bottom line is, Eddie should have been bigger sooner. They kind of wasted him similar to the way they wasted Austin.
Not to talk shit, but he'd have been bigger sooner if it weren't for his personal issues. Don't blame anyone not pushing a guy who had a hard time staying sober.
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:20 AM   #76
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While there is something to be said for your argument about heart, passion, charisma, mic skill, in-ring skill, etc., none of that even matters to your success as a main-eventer if you’re in WWE and don’t have that certain intangible/x-factor (no, not X-Pac’s move) that means that the fans love/hate you not just for your charisma but also for a certain unknowable reason that they can't help but just love/hate your character every time he/she is seen.

I’m 95% certain that same intangible/x-factor I just described is why his ex-wife gets all the heat she does every time the fans see or hear her.
She gets heat because her voice is really fucking annoying. She sounds like the deaf and mentally challenged individual Noid probably is.

If people boo her before she says something, it's only in anticipation that she at some point will open her mouth and say something that offends the senses by its very existence. Much like Noid.

"It" is the sum of the parts. There is no mysterious extra factor. Unless it's the WeX factor, but that doesn't apply here.
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