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Old 08-04-2013, 12:48 PM   #41
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Is it just possible that Matt Hardy wasn't that good and not ready to be in that spot?
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:51 PM   #42
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Jeff vs Matt from WM25 sucked. The build wasn't bad, but the match sucked. Every time Matt WWE put him in a high profile borderline main event singles match/feud, he blew it.

FFS, remember the promo he cut when Vince hired him back?
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:54 PM   #43
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This PWInsider article pretty much sums up most of my feelings on that Edhe/Hardy feud. Written in 2008. It even mentions the shoddy Hardy promo work. The promos shouldn't have been that big of a problem considering they know Hardy can cut promos. It could've been worked on fairly easily. The potential for this feud was fucking ridiculous and they ruined it.

Quote:
AFTERNOON THOUGHTS: MATT HARDY VS. EDGE - WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN
By Mike Johnson on 2008-05-01 14:23:18
WWE'S HARDY DVD LEAVES ME WONDERING...WHAT IF?

I had the chance to watch the first DVD of WWE's Hardy Boyz - Twist of Fate set last night, which focuses on Matt Hardy. The 60 minute documentary look at Matt's career is, for the most part, another well balanced look at Hardy's WWE runs, with comments from Hardy, Shannon Moore, Gregory Helms, Michael Hayes, Jeff Hardy, Edge, Jim Ross, Ken Kennedy and others.

The DVD recounts The Hardy Boyz's career from Matt's point of view, then follows his journey as a solo act after the tag team splits. From the famous trampoline wrestling stories that make the Hardys the most successful backyard wrestlers of all time to promoting OMEGA to the typical wrestling carny stories of former NWA enhancement talent the Italian Stallion getting the Hardys booked as WWF jobbers for $150 a night, then taking $100 a night from them for the booking, to the tumultuous Matt-Lita-Edge storyline, it's a very good profile piece on Matt Hardy.

However, the chapter on the already well known and covered love triangle that saw Hardy lose his job with WWE while injured then return is perhaps the most intriguing piece of the Matt Hardy DVD.

Indeed, although Edge commented that the situation was a learning process for all involved and Hardy himself is mature enough to admit he was in a terrible place in his life by taking to the Internet to release his grievances - Dumas was not asked to take part in the DVD - what was left unsaid even as Edge noted that the company decided to take a negative personal life situation and turn it into a positive for the professional life of those involved was that World Wrestling Entertainment completely dropped the ball on the angle.

Indeed, anyone remember how hot Matt Hardy was when he returned at the Meadowlands in New Jersey, attacking Adam Copeland and saying the name "Ring of Honor" (where he was booked to work the following weekend) on the house mic, before being dragged off in handcuffs? How much tension there was in the air between Hardy and Edge? The back and forth promos? The crowd reaction at Summerslam that tore the roof off the place? The intensity as Edge and Hardy tore into each other at the onset of that bout?

No?

Well, that's because between the idea that Vince McMahon personally brought Hardy back into the company after he was an outsider attacking Edge, how Hardy fumbled his first live promo back to the point he was almost never given a chance to talk for some time after, and how one-sided the quick first Edge match was, all pretty much killed any momentum Hardy created for himself online and with the fans.

As hot as that issue was, as real and as personal as it could have been as a TV storyline, one of the lessons learned from watching the Hardy DVD is how quickly the momentum of an angle, no matter how perfectly handed to a company based on a real-life situation with real life emotions, no matter how deeply fans legitimately care about those performers involved, can quickly become muddied and stomped out with poor decisions. In this case, WWE took the golden goose and cooked it before it laid a single golden egg.

The booking of the Edge-Matt storyline will go down in the history books as one of the biggest missed opportunities in WWE history, one that was lost the second Edge and Hardy entered the ring at Summerslam. Instead of a bloody, hard-fought grudge match, instead it was a bout that was seemingly designed to knock Matt Hardy down from whatever babyface pedestal all the online and insider sympathy he had received (or as some felt at the time, engineered) and remind him that he was back to being a contracted WWE player and would play by their rules and the opportunities they give him, not the ones he made for himself.

Hardy noted on the DVD that Edge was the company's golden boy at the time. The reality is that Edge gained a lot of heel heat and a rub from the triangle scandal, but looking back, it's obvious that the company had the chance to create something that the NWA had in Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat, that WWF had in Randy Savage vs. Hulk Hogan and ECW had in Tommy Dreamer vs. Raven - a rivalry that could always refresh itself, with personalities that could always play off their history with the other and have great matches. They had a chance to create something that would make them money in the months and years to come - a rivalry for the ages, borne out of emotion and reality.

Instead, Edge became a star and Matt Hardy went to the mid-card.

Hardy would eventually return to form as a top star for Smackdown (hence his huge Wrestlemania XXIV pop when he attacked MVP), but it's still a far cry from what could have been for him under different set of booking circumstances. I am sure he's happy as the only thing he ever wanted in his life was to be a WWE star, but there's always going to be that "What If" question for me, especially after watching the DVD.

I have to wonder if that question rings in Matt Hardy's ears as well.
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:56 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Jeff vs Matt from WM25 sucked. The build wasn't bad, but the match sucked. Every time Matt WWE put him in a high profile borderline main event singles match/feud, he blew it.

FFS, remember the promo he cut when Vince hired him back?
They didn't give that match very much time at all. Not even close to what they should've given it. They tried to put a ton of spots into a very short match. Even with what they had, I'll still always remember that spot that won the match. It's been seared into my head forever.
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:57 PM   #45
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And James Steele, you can't be that much of a promo snob if Triple H is your favorite wrestler. Lets get real here.
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:59 PM   #46
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It's WWE's fault that Matt Hardy can't cut a promo to save his life and fight for match outcomes?
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:00 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissus View Post
And James Steele, you can't be that much of a promo snob if Triple H is your favorite wrestler. Lets get real here.
Triple H is a great promo guy. He can be long-winded, but he can cut a damn good promo as a babyface, heel, badass, goofball, rich snob, etc.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:03 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissus View Post
They didn't give that match very much time at all. Not even close to what they should've given it. They tried to put a ton of spots into a very short match. Even with what they had, I'll still always remember that spot that won the match. It's been seared into my head forever.
Whose fault is it they tried to do nothing but spots? Matt and Jeff. It is Wrestle-fucking-Mania and you are wrestling your brother. They know how to put a good fucking match together regardless of time. It was a 13 minute match. They didn't need 30 minutes to tell a story. They decided to be cheap and just do a shitload of spots. It sucked balls. Show/Cena/Edge only got 14 minutes as well. No fucking excuse for 2 allegedly seasoned veterans to put on that shitfest. If it was Batista/Orton instead of Jeff/Matt you wouldn't be finding excuses for them. (All match times according to Wikipedia)

The MITB match that year only had 1 more minute of time than their match, and they were able to deliver a good spotfest. No reason Matt and Jeff the "high spot kings" couldn't deliver.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:13 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
It's WWE's fault that Matt Hardy can't cut a promo to save his life and fight for match outcomes?
It is WWE's fault that they can't capitalize on huge opportunities that are served to them on a silver platter. You're making a much bigger deal of the promos than it needs to be. They were fine, they just weren't "knock it out of the park" amazing. That situation will probably never happen again in the history of wrestling. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity that could've bred hundreds of other creative ideas off of its back. The matches were fucking incredible, sans that abortion Summerslam match where they tried to bury Hardy right off the bat out of bitterness. The emotion involved was unreal and it really showed in every single one of those matches. How both guys didn't get catapulted into the main event after a feud like that is not only baffling, it is downright irresponsible. That feud could've been revisited for years to come whenever they needed a money match on a PPV. The WWE completely fucking blew it on this.

"The promos could've been better" is a really horrible reason to throw money into the garbage. And like I said, they really weren't all that bad. They weren't good, but they were serviceable given the circumstances. Do you think Paul Heyman or Jim Cornette would've set money on fire because of a mediocre promo? The answer is no and neither would any reasonable business person. Nobody paying attention at that time was like "omg, fucking promos," they were immersed in the "I can't believe this is fucking happening right now" aspect of it all.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:16 PM   #50
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I agree they should have been given more time at SummerSlam, but the feud continued for months and they had brutal long matches. If having a short match can completely derail your career, then you were never going to make it to begin with.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:17 PM   #51
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Edge vs Matt Hardy SummerSlam 2005 by SmackDown54
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:19 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissus View Post
It is WWE's fault that they can't capitalize on huge opportunities that are served to them on a silver platter. You're making a much bigger deal of the promos than it needs to be. They were fine, they just weren't "knock it out of the park" amazing. That situation will probably never happen again in the history of wrestling. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity that could've bred hundreds of other creative ideas off of its back. The matches were fucking incredible, sans that abortion Summerslam match where they tried to bury Hardy right off the bat out of bitterness. The emotion involved was unreal and it really showed in every single one of those matches. How both guys didn't get catapulted into the main event after a feud like that is not only baffling, it is downright irresponsible. That feud could've been revisited for years to come whenever they needed a money match on a PPV. The WWE completely fucking blew it on this.

"The promos could've been better" is a really horrible reason to throw money into the garbage. And like I said, they really weren't all that bad. They weren't good, but they were serviceable given the circumstances. Do you think Paul Heyman or Jim Cornette would've set money on fire because of a mediocre promo? The answer is no and neither would any reasonable business person. Nobody paying attention at that time was like "omg, fucking promos," they were immersed in the "I can't believe this is fucking happening right now" aspect of it all.
It is really easy to explain why both didn't make it into the main event. Matt Hardy wasn'tt good enough to be a main eventer and Edge was. Promos do matter when a feud is based entirely off of emotion and hatred. Matt Hardy couldn't sustain his overness once the Jerry Springer heat wore off of Edge. Also, the SummerSlam match being short does at least makes sense since they were literally beating the shit out of each other and basically fighting. 2 guys trying to kill each other and going at the pace they were can't go on for 30 minutes.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:20 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Whose fault is it they tried to do nothing but spots? Matt and Jeff. It is Wrestle-fucking-Mania and you are wrestling your brother. They know how to put a good fucking match together regardless of time. It was a 13 minute match. They didn't need 30 minutes to tell a story. They decided to be cheap and just do a shitload of spots. It sucked balls. Show/Cena/Edge only got 14 minutes as well. No fucking excuse for 2 allegedly seasoned veterans to put on that shitfest. If it was Batista/Orton instead of Jeff/Matt you wouldn't be finding excuses for them. (All match times according to Wikipedia)

The MITB match that year only had 1 more minute of time than their match, and they were able to deliver a good spotfest. No reason Matt and Jeff the "high spot kings" couldn't deliver.
Allegedly they were supposed to have 6-7 more minutes and it was cut down minutes before the match started. And it wasn't a shitfest at all. You are completely exaggerating. And why would a match with tons of weapons with two guys that are known for crazy spots not include spots? You seem like you're being pretty biased right now. They had a lot of things planned and had to cut it down on the fly. Seems reasonable that it all seemed rushed.

And by the way, do you remember your hero being in one of the worst WM main events ever? Do you not offer excuses for that match? I'm fairly certain I've seen you make them.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:23 PM   #54
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I also don't think it is wise to build a long-term feud around a very nasty personal situation. We hammer WWE if they use someone's alcoholism, death, drug use, etc. in storylines.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:24 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissus View Post
Allegedly they were supposed to have 6-7 more minutes and it was cut down minutes before the match started. And it wasn't a shitfest at all. You are completely exaggerating. And why would a match with tons of weapons with two guys that are known for crazy spots not include spots? You seem like you're being pretty biased right now. They had a lot of things planned and had to cut it down on the fly. Seems reasonable that it all seemed rushed.

And by the way, do you remember your hero being in one of the worst WM main events ever? Do you not offer excuses for that match? I'm fairly certain I've seen you make them.
The match itself wasn't bad. The crowd was drained and the stipulations didn't fit the storyline. It is hardly one of the worst WM main events ever.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:26 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
It is really easy to explain why both didn't make it into the main event. Matt Hardy wasn'tt good enough to be a main eventer and Edge was. Promos do matter when a feud is based entirely off of emotion and hatred. Matt Hardy couldn't sustain his overness once the Jerry Springer heat wore off of Edge.
Why are you exaggerating so much? The promos were not laughably bad or anything, but they could've been better on Hardy's part. And I just explained to you why anybody with a reasonable business sense could've made money on this feud. This situation was so good they could've made a fortune on it even if Matt Hardy was completely deaf and couldn't deliver a promo at all. You don't let things like this just go. This situation will NEVER happen again. Never. Not ever.

Probably the biggest missed opportunity in WWE history, IMO.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:27 PM   #57
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Quote:
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The match itself wasn't bad. The crowd was drained and the stipulations didn't fit the storyline. It is hardly one of the worst WM main events ever.
See? You're fine offering excuses when it involves things that you care about.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:28 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissus View Post
Why are you exaggerating so much? The promos were not laughably bad or anything, but they could've been better on Hardy's part. And I just explained to you why anybody with a reasonable business sense could've made money on this feud. This situation was so good they could've made a fortune on it even if Matt Hardy was completely deaf and couldn't deliver a promo at all. You don't let things like this just go. This situation will NEVER happen again. Never. Not ever.

Probably the biggest missed opportunity in WWE history, IMO.
...and I'm the one exaggerating?

Quote:
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See? You're fine offering excuses when it involves things that you care about.
I didn't excuse the wrestlers or the match for not delivering. I simply stated why it did. You just are saying "nuh uh. It had a sick finish! It needed more time!" 13 minutes is plenty of time for a midcard match at WrestleMania.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:31 PM   #59
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Edge/Mysterio vs Brock/Tajiri. It is shorter than Matt/Jeff and is probably better.


Brock Lesnar & Tajiri vs Rey Mysterio & Edge by SmackDown54
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:33 PM   #60
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I'm not exaggerating. I really think it could've been fucking gigantic if the WWE knew what they had even remotely.

And that's not what I'm doing at all. Nobody wanted their money back after that Hardy/Hardy match. It was an entertaining match but it didn't live up to expectations at all. Part of the reason is because the match was rushed and they tried to fit a ton into a small period of time. And the ending was sick.

And yes, I don't remember being more disappointed in a WWE main event than I was after that Trips /Orton match. Maybe Miz/Cena.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:34 PM   #61
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Narc, do you think the Benoit/Sullivan feud could have been a marquee feud for WCW and led them into the new millenium?
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:35 PM   #62
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Matt and Jeff know how to work a match. They could have cut out some of those spots and put on a much better match that told the story better. Matt killed Jeff's dog, burned his house down, burned him with pyro, etc. It shouldn't have just been a spotfest.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:36 PM   #63
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Hey speaking of WWE main eventers that were absolutely fucking incredible on the mic, there's Brock Lesnar!
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:37 PM   #64
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For everyone's enjoyment:
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:38 PM   #65
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Quote:
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Hey speaking of WWE main eventers that were absolutely fucking incredible on the mic, there's Brock Lesnar!
Are you really trying to compare Brock Lesnar and Matt Hardy? Lesnar didn't need to ever say a word. Brock Lesnar is the personification of "spectacle".
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:38 PM   #66
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Narc, do you think the Benoit/Sullivan feud could have been a marquee feud for WCW and led them into the new millenium?
Hey James, do you think that the Goldberg/Hogan match should've been cancelled because Bill Goldberg can't cut a promo to save his life?

Let's continue asking questions that further our points but that are completely out of context.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:38 PM   #67
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"What about my dawwwwwg, Matt? What about Jack, man?"
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:39 PM   #68
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Quote:
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Hey James, do you think that the Goldberg/Hogan match should've been cancelled because Bill Goldberg can't cut a promo to save his life?

Let's continue asking questions that further our points but that are completely out of context.
Are you really trying to compare Goldberg and Matt Hardy? Goldberg didn't need to ever say a word. Goldberg is the personification of "spectacle".
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:40 PM   #69
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Oh. So you mean he didn't have to cut the greatest promos because his work in the ring and the story lines were enough to push him into the main event? Interesting stuff.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:40 PM   #70
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I will say that WWE was stupid for turning Matt babyface like 2 months after WM25.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:40 PM   #71
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It's almost as if that same principle could be applied to other situations.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:41 PM   #72
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Quote:
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Oh. So you mean he didn't have to cut the greatest promos because his work in the ring and the story lines were enough to push him into the main event? Interesting stuff.
Golberg sucked in the ring. So did Hogan and Ultimate Warrior. Wrestling isn't always about the ring work. Some guys have such off the charts natural charisma and an aura about them that they draw in spite of their shit wrestling. Brock Lesnar had that aura but could actually wrestle. Perfect storm of greatness for Brock Lesnar. Matt Hardy is a decent to good wrestler and shit to below average on the mic. He has never had an aura on his own. He leeched off of Jeff Hardy and the sympathy people felt for him with the Lita situation. If Matt/Lita weren't such an established on-screen couple, I don't think it would have anywhere near as big of a deal to the fans.

Edge took the opportunity and made the most out of it. Matt didn't and just continued to whine and bitch for the rest of his career.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:43 PM   #73
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Do you know what else was a spectacle? That Edge/Hardy storyline that will never happen again. Are we getting somewhere yet?
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:46 PM   #74
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Quote:
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Do you know what else was a spectacle? That Edge/Hardy storyline that will never happen again. Are we getting somewhere yet?
No. Whores cheating on their boyfriends isn't all that revolutionary or rare. See: Sullivan/Benoit/Woman, See: Val Venis' first year in the WWF.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:48 PM   #75
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People got tired of him whining about the whole situation, but somehow it could have been a years long eternal battle of wills over some well-used poongtang?
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:51 PM   #76
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:53 PM   #77
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Quote:
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No. Whores cheating on their boyfriends isn't all that revolutionary or rare. See: Sullivan/Benoit/Woman, See: Val Venis' first year in the WWF.
See? There you go again trying to simplify what was a very complex situation. It was not just about the cheating. Edge/Lita had an affair which caused Matt to flip his shit on the Internet. The WWE, seeing that this was a shitstorm fired Hardy because they saw more in Edge than they did in Hardy. Then for the next couple of months, Edge couldn't even go to the ring without 9 million Matt Hardy fans wanting to rip him limb from limb. Matt Hardy fans literally hijacked every show that Edge was on for months. It got to the point that WWE couldn't ignore it anymore and were pretty much forced to give Matt Hardy his job back so they could see this feud through. That will never happen again and it should not be discounted how crazy all of that was. That will never happen again.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:00 PM   #78
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...and all those Matt Hardy fans disappeared and never returned once the feud was over. The fans have always gone nuts when someone they truly like gets fired unjustly: Matt Hardy, Daniel Bryan, Ric Flair, etc. Matt couldn't capitalize on it and it isn't because he lost to Edge at SummerSlam but because he just isn't that good.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:03 PM   #79
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In all seriousness, I wonder if Edge's injury hasn't been deliberately overblown so that he can make a huge surprise comeback someday. I don't believe this to be the case, but if he showed up one day in just that fashion my response would definitely be "I fucking knew it!"
If he came back and won the Rumble/a title it'd be the most epic example of being "The Ultimate Opportunist".
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:03 PM   #80
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No they didn't. He had an eventful run on Smackdown but the fans aren't going to stick around forever if they aren't given a reason to give a shit. They didnt strike while the iron was hot because they never do. You have a very annoying habit of not telling the full story so you can try to further your argument. It's very frustrating talking to you on here sometimes. Like seriously, you need to work on that. I can't have a regular conversation with you.
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