Big Show Comments on Brock Lesnar - Page 2

**The CyNick** · 02-19-2005, 01:04 PM

You're missing the point.

Putting somone over has very little to do with "laying down". Very few people say "Brock is better than Hogan because he beat him". That logic went out the window in the 70s.

Bret Hart, Foley, Taker, and Rock all put over Austin night after night by selling for him and making hm look like the biggest badass in the world. Bret Hart especially. Bret Hart was at a point in his career where he didn't need to make someone look good at his expense. BUt he did it, and in a way it led to his downfall because by making Steve a huge star he himself became expendable.

Austin has NEVER done that for anyone. Yeah he did a JOB for The Rock in his last match, but Rock was already a bigger star than him, and it was only one match. It was actually pretty meaningless in the grand sheme of things.

Austin is selfish, like most main event guys, and on more than one occasion he left the company high and dry. So like I said, you can hate Brock for leaving the WWE but at least be consistant about why you bash people.

And dont get me started on someone like HBK.

**Kane Knight** · 02-19-2005, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KayfabeMan

Austin refused to job to Brock, which everyone bitched about - but it turned out to be a smart move.

Sorry, this is just plain stupid. That's the same level of retardation of saying that it was a smart move to let your drunk friend drive cross country, while sucking on a bong, simply because you were lucky enough to get there.

Austin threw a tantrum and walked because he didn't want to lay down for someone. It's not a smart move, and is bad for business. If it happened to have a positive outcome, because Brock left, that's not proof that it was a smart move.

**Loose Cannon** · 02-19-2005, 03:16 PM

Ok, I see both arguments here and in reality, it's an argument that can never be one because both sides are talking about two completely different aspects in the world of business.

I see Kayfabe Man's point about Brock coming in, getting pushed the top rather quickly at other's expense and then saying fuck it. But this argument is based on ethics/morality and goodwill. Yea, from an ethical standpoint, it might be the wrong thing to do, but when has Vince McMahon ever been ethical anyway? That guy is the personification of "unethical."

With CyNick's point, it's strickly business. Brock did his job and left. In a business sense, there is nothing wrong with that. Wasn't his fault the WWE pushed him pretty quick. They do that a lot these days with guys. Brock tookthe oppurtunity the WWE gave him and I'm sure most of us would have done the same. Yea, guys whohave busted thier asses for years and never got that kind of push are going tobe pissed, but that's one of life's realities. It happens every day in business and sometimes it's bullshit.

So the real argument here is was it right for Brock to leave? And it's just a matter of opinion and a question that can be debated forever.

Personally, I had no problems with Brock leaving. He did what he wanted to do for a while and then wanted to do something else. How can you deny a guy the way he wants to live his life? Yea, I agree he was a dick for not giving them a warning a time beforehand that he was leaving, but I guess it was just a sudden thing.

With Austin, that guy helped put nobody over during the end of his career. Not one guy. Hell, did he ever put anybody over one time? Maybe Rock, but I would even argue Rock and HHH got themselves mega-over by wrestling each other. Austin never really did a dam thing for a guy coming up. Taz, RVD, Booker T, what happened there? Austin's going around stunning everybody every single night when he wasn't even wrestling anymore. Yea, that's great.

That's while I'll always argue Bret and Flair are the two greatest wrestlers of all-time, because they made money for companies when they were on top and they put thier companies in positions to make more money when thier careers were coming to the end of thier careers as far as being able to go every night.

**Kane Knight** · 02-19-2005, 04:05 PM

The arguments overlap heavily, as the stances are not mutually exclusive. The problem is that in entertainment, ethics and business can easily go hand in hand. People with shit work ethics are usually bad for business, where as people with good work ethics are good for business.

Austin kept taking. Bad for business, bad for ethics and good will. Austin leaving over this was done poorly, and was bad ethically and bad for business. He didn't do his job, and he was on a far worse ethical AND business stance than brock was.

Kayfabe's argument revolves around who owes who, which is moot, because this IS a business. When someone walks into a store and you sell them something, you don't go "okay, but you owe me." You're not doing someone a favor by obeying management and store policy. And yet, even if this retarded point wasn't totally raped by then, Ausitn's not sitting pretty, yet he seems to hero worship the guy.

**Fox** · 02-20-2005, 01:12 PM

I've really gotta side with Kayfabe man on this one.

Professional wrestling is not JUST a business. It is a legacy in North America, and it has been for many, many years. The rules of the game are constantly changing, but the basics will remain the same. It's not about Brock "making a business decision" or Vince McMahon making a bad business decision, it's about respect for the industry that made you a star. Brock has none.

Brock Lesnar was a guy fresh out of college, and was coming into pro wrestling with one hell of a background story. NCAA champion and all of that, plus his incredible build and look. He had the makings of a star. However, it takes much more than the look of a star to become a star in the world of professional wresting - it takes hard work from you and your fellow wrestlers.

The WWE gave everything to Brock Lesnar in a hand knitted gold basket with a fucking ribbon on top. Squash victories over the established Hardy Boyz, King of the Ring, victories over Rob Van Dam, the destruction of Hulk Hogan that solidified him as a monster, a clean win over The Rock at Summerslam for the WWE Championship after less than a year in the WWE, a Royal Rumble victory, a WrestleMania main event victory, and numerous wins over The Big Show. And he walked out on it all.

Like I said, it's all about having respect for the business. Not only does Brock have zero respect for the WWE (and wrestling in general), but he has shown zero gratuity toward the men who made him who he was. Those jobs made Brock Lesnar a star, and he pulled down his pants and took a mighty big shit on all of them. It wasn't just a business decision, not for Lesnar or for McMahon. It was the fact that they gave Brock everything any aspiring wrestler could ever want (you don't think guys like Jericho, Benoit, Bob Holly, Rob Van Dam, and Eddie Guerrero weren't glowing with envy?), and he acted like it was nothing. This wasn't just business. This was the wet dream of pushes in the world of pro wrestling. And he didn't care.

Big Show has a great point as he was the one who kept Brock fresh. Big Show is a 7 foot, 500 pound gorilla of a man, and he took massive risks to put over Lesnar. Need I remind you of one of the greatest moments of 2003 - when the Smackdown ring was decimated after a superplex from Lesnar to Big Show? Or how about his running powerbomb across the ring? Needless of reminding are the numerous and impressive F5's that Big Show took during their feud, even after what happened to A-Train. Show gave Lesnar a huge amount of popularity and help by all of his huge bumps, and like I said, Lesnar spit on his contributions to the man's career.

Now, I'm not the type of person to berate someone for chasing their dreams, but Brock went about leaving the WWE in a horrible fashion. No contract discussions, no joint decisions between him and McMahon. It was up and leave, right before the biggest show of the year, where Lesnar was booked to have one of the biggest matches and actually to go over as well. But he spit on that too, and McMahon made the right choice in giving Goldberg the nod.

Brock treated the wrestling industry like shit while he was trying to get into the NFL, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out why. The NFL looks at pro wrestling as a joke - a form of entertainment to men who play a REAL sport. Lesnar demeaned the wrestling business to try and fit in better as a REAL athlete in a REAL sport. Not signing autographs on WWE merchandise because "that part of his life is over." Of course, when he didn't make it into the NFL, what did he do? My god! He tried to come back to the WWE, and he tried to do it under his own rules! Even the most self-serving asshole would realize that he had no leverage, and should probably crawl back on his hands and knees and beg for his job back. But Brock Lesnar has no respect for the business.

Brock didn't become a star in the WWE. In his three years there, he made some good money, but he didn't become a celebrity as far as Triple H is a celebrity, or even Kurt Angle and Undertaker are celebrities. He's going to regret leaving because he could've done so much more in his young career, but he ruined it because he didn't realize what he had. The bird flew the coup on a wrestling career for Lesnar, and I believe Big Show, and all the other guys in the back, have every right to hate Brock Lesnar.

LK · 02-20-2005, 01:34 PM

Now I know that being in wrestling isn't like any normal job but a few will look at it as that and thats what Brock looked at wrestlign as. A job. He knew it was something he could do well and could make some money out of it that would give him more financial stability and he could then try out in the NFL. I don't have a problem with him doing that but I didn't particularly like the things he said of the business after leaving.

**Kane Knight** · 02-20-2005, 01:43 PM

I just love how even the other side of the argument calls it "the business."

Living in denial is fun, but ultimately pointless.

**KingofOldSchool** · 02-20-2005, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kane Knight

What a retarded outlook.

It's not your job to do your job.

LOL

Don't you have a baby to kill, Snitsky?

**Fox** · 02-20-2005, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kane Knight

I just love how even the other side of the argument calls it "the business."

Living in denial is fun, but ultimately pointless.

Nothing in response?

**Fox** · 02-20-2005, 10:56 PM

I'm waiting, Kane Knight.

02-19-2005, 01:04 PM	#41
The CyNick Make the IWC Great Again Posts: 8,922	You're missing the point. Putting somone over has very little to do with "laying down". Very few people say "Brock is better than Hogan because he beat him". That logic went out the window in the 70s. Bret Hart, Foley, Taker, and Rock all put over Austin night after night by selling for him and making hm look like the biggest badass in the world. Bret Hart especially. Bret Hart was at a point in his career where he didn't need to make someone look good at his expense. BUt he did it, and in a way it led to his downfall because by making Steve a huge star he himself became expendable. Austin has NEVER done that for anyone. Yeah he did a JOB for The Rock in his last match, but Rock was already a bigger star than him, and it was only one match. It was actually pretty meaningless in the grand sheme of things. Austin is selfish, like most main event guys, and on more than one occasion he left the company high and dry. So like I said, you can hate Brock for leaving the WWE but at least be consistant about why you bash people. And dont get me started on someone like HBK.

02-19-2005, 03:16 PM	#43
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	Ok, I see both arguments here and in reality, it's an argument that can never be one because both sides are talking about two completely different aspects in the world of business. I see Kayfabe Man's point about Brock coming in, getting pushed the top rather quickly at other's expense and then saying fuck it. But this argument is based on ethics/morality and goodwill. Yea, from an ethical standpoint, it might be the wrong thing to do, but when has Vince McMahon ever been ethical anyway? That guy is the personification of "unethical." With CyNick's point, it's strickly business. Brock did his job and left. In a business sense, there is nothing wrong with that. Wasn't his fault the WWE pushed him pretty quick. They do that a lot these days with guys. Brock tookthe oppurtunity the WWE gave him and I'm sure most of us would have done the same. Yea, guys whohave busted thier asses for years and never got that kind of push are going tobe pissed, but that's one of life's realities. It happens every day in business and sometimes it's bullshit. So the real argument here is was it right for Brock to leave? And it's just a matter of opinion and a question that can be debated forever. Personally, I had no problems with Brock leaving. He did what he wanted to do for a while and then wanted to do something else. How can you deny a guy the way he wants to live his life? Yea, I agree he was a dick for not giving them a warning a time beforehand that he was leaving, but I guess it was just a sudden thing. With Austin, that guy helped put nobody over during the end of his career. Not one guy. Hell, did he ever put anybody over one time? Maybe Rock, but I would even argue Rock and HHH got themselves mega-over by wrestling each other. Austin never really did a dam thing for a guy coming up. Taz, RVD, Booker T, what happened there? Austin's going around stunning everybody every single night when he wasn't even wrestling anymore. Yea, that's great. That's while I'll always argue Bret and Flair are the two greatest wrestlers of all-time, because they made money for companies when they were on top and they put thier companies in positions to make more money when thier careers were coming to the end of thier careers as far as being able to go every night.

02-19-2005, 04:05 PM	#44
Kane Knight Ron Paul 4 EVA Posts: 152,467	The arguments overlap heavily, as the stances are not mutually exclusive. The problem is that in entertainment, ethics and business can easily go hand in hand. People with shit work ethics are usually bad for business, where as people with good work ethics are good for business. Austin kept taking. Bad for business, bad for ethics and good will. Austin leaving over this was done poorly, and was bad ethically and bad for business. He didn't do his job, and he was on a far worse ethical AND business stance than brock was. Kayfabe's argument revolves around who owes who, which is moot, because this IS a business. When someone walks into a store and you sell them something, you don't go "okay, but you owe me." You're not doing someone a favor by obeying management and store policy. And yet, even if this retarded point wasn't totally raped by then, Ausitn's not sitting pretty, yet he seems to hero worship the guy.

02-20-2005, 01:12 PM	#45
Fox "Ask him!" Posts: 10,072	I've really gotta side with Kayfabe man on this one. Professional wrestling is not JUST a business. It is a legacy in North America, and it has been for many, many years. The rules of the game are constantly changing, but the basics will remain the same. It's not about Brock "making a business decision" or Vince McMahon making a bad business decision, it's about respect for the industry that made you a star. Brock has none. Brock Lesnar was a guy fresh out of college, and was coming into pro wrestling with one hell of a background story. NCAA champion and all of that, plus his incredible build and look. He had the makings of a star. However, it takes much more than the look of a star to become a star in the world of professional wresting - it takes hard work from you and your fellow wrestlers. The WWE gave everything to Brock Lesnar in a hand knitted gold basket with a fucking ribbon on top. Squash victories over the established Hardy Boyz, King of the Ring, victories over Rob Van Dam, the destruction of Hulk Hogan that solidified him as a monster, a clean win over The Rock at Summerslam for the WWE Championship after less than a year in the WWE, a Royal Rumble victory, a WrestleMania main event victory, and numerous wins over The Big Show. And he walked out on it all. Like I said, it's all about having respect for the business. Not only does Brock have zero respect for the WWE (and wrestling in general), but he has shown zero gratuity toward the men who made him who he was. Those jobs made Brock Lesnar a star, and he pulled down his pants and took a mighty big shit on all of them. It wasn't just a business decision, not for Lesnar or for McMahon. It was the fact that they gave Brock everything any aspiring wrestler could ever want (you don't think guys like Jericho, Benoit, Bob Holly, Rob Van Dam, and Eddie Guerrero weren't glowing with envy?), and he acted like it was nothing. This wasn't just business. This was the wet dream of pushes in the world of pro wrestling. And he didn't care. Big Show has a great point as he was the one who kept Brock fresh. Big Show is a 7 foot, 500 pound gorilla of a man, and he took massive risks to put over Lesnar. Need I remind you of one of the greatest moments of 2003 - when the Smackdown ring was decimated after a superplex from Lesnar to Big Show? Or how about his running powerbomb across the ring? Needless of reminding are the numerous and impressive F5's that Big Show took during their feud, even after what happened to A-Train. Show gave Lesnar a huge amount of popularity and help by all of his huge bumps, and like I said, Lesnar spit on his contributions to the man's career. Now, I'm not the type of person to berate someone for chasing their dreams, but Brock went about leaving the WWE in a horrible fashion. No contract discussions, no joint decisions between him and McMahon. It was up and leave, right before the biggest show of the year, where Lesnar was booked to have one of the biggest matches and actually to go over as well. But he spit on that too, and McMahon made the right choice in giving Goldberg the nod. Brock treated the wrestling industry like shit while he was trying to get into the NFL, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out why. The NFL looks at pro wrestling as a joke - a form of entertainment to men who play a REAL sport. Lesnar demeaned the wrestling business to try and fit in better as a REAL athlete in a REAL sport. Not signing autographs on WWE merchandise because "that part of his life is over." Of course, when he didn't make it into the NFL, what did he do? My god! He tried to come back to the WWE, and he tried to do it under his own rules! Even the most self-serving asshole would realize that he had no leverage, and should probably crawl back on his hands and knees and beg for his job back. But Brock Lesnar has no respect for the business. Brock didn't become a star in the WWE. In his three years there, he made some good money, but he didn't become a celebrity as far as Triple H is a celebrity, or even Kurt Angle and Undertaker are celebrities. He's going to regret leaving because he could've done so much more in his young career, but he ruined it because he didn't realize what he had. The bird flew the coup on a wrestling career for Lesnar, and I believe Big Show, and all the other guys in the back, have every right to hate Brock Lesnar.

02-20-2005, 01:34 PM	#46
LK It's Clobbering Time! Posts: 5,337	Now I know that being in wrestling isn't like any normal job but a few will look at it as that and thats what Brock looked at wrestlign as. A job. He knew it was something he could do well and could make some money out of it that would give him more financial stability and he could then try out in the NFL. I don't have a problem with him doing that but I didn't particularly like the things he said of the business after leaving.

02-20-2005, 01:43 PM	#47
Kane Knight Ron Paul 4 EVA Posts: 152,467	I just love how even the other side of the argument calls it "the business." Living in denial is fun, but ultimately pointless.

02-20-2005, 10:56 PM	#50
Fox "Ask him!" Posts: 10,072	I'm waiting, Kane Knight.