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Old 04-22-2005, 06:23 PM   #41
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1. the gimmick: that gimmick is just WAAAAYYYY out of place in today's wrestling environment.

What about Hogan's or JBL's Millilon Dollar man?
JBL is currently involved in about 2 or three fueds, and he gets more TV time than any wrestler on Smackdown. as for Hogan, he IS out of place. this is like the 20th ride on the endless Hulkamania Nostalgia Trip. The Undertaker gimmick is a nostalgia trip too.
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It's marketing, Taker was a recognisable face back in the day and regular fans know him, it's a good way to re generate interest in fans that may have lost touch
WRONG. if i was watching wrestling for the 1st time in years, and i turned it on and saw a 15 minute Hogan pose down, followed by the X Files, starring the Undertaker, I would simply remember why i lost interest in wrestling in the first place.
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2. his work rate: he is not only prone to injury, but his character does not fit today's wrestling environment
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To be fair I can't really think of a stand out bad match that he's had since his return of the dead man, there's alot of people out on that roster that are far worse.
by work rate, i was referring to his attendace record. he has not even shown his face since WM21 because there is nothing for him to do because his gimmick is so out of place.

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3. his entrance: ooooh, scary stuff! wait, no. TOO MUCH stuff.

See Point 1
sorry, dude, but that entrance is just WAAAYY to grand.

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At what point in this new gimmick has he claimed to be a Satan worshiper? And how can he not be a face right now? Honestly. How would you turn him heel? he's the most over guy on both rosters! Also see point 1
dont take what i said so literally. my point is that the character just makes a helluva lot more since as a heel. always has.

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Personally i really enjoyed his feud with Kane
then you must be a complete mark, because that 'fued' consisted of ONE face to face physical confrontation which was the WM20 squash of Kane. all of that supernatural bullshit is out of place in 2005 and it is annoying to watch
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Old 04-22-2005, 07:23 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o.
I'll take a Taker who doesn't need to spend all his time chasing world title belts and wrestling here and there so as to avoid shitty matches, over the other guy on Raw who gets into plenty of shitty matches and hogs all the time in the ME scene.
I'd rather watch Triple H than Taker. That should saysomething.
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Old 04-22-2005, 09:17 PM   #43
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Old 04-22-2005, 09:30 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by roach21
Kane Knight has an expensive coke habit.
Come back when you've got 100 posts.

*takes a hit*
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Old 04-22-2005, 09:31 PM   #45
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No, I'm just not willing to be dishonest in order to pan someone I hate (Triple H).

It's easy to call him the worst wrestler ever, blah blah blah, but I prefer to be honest and straightforward. If people enjoy Taker more, whatever. I've seen more quality matches from Triple H in the past few than Taker (And that should say soemthing, given I have recently complained about the lack of HHH matches worth watching).
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Old 04-22-2005, 11:07 PM   #46
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Most people in this forum took a great nostalgia trip when Undertaker came back at WM20. We all pretty much agreed it should of been a one time deal though. The fact that he is more over than Marky Mark is irrelevant. The fact that his entrance gets a big pop is irrelevant. He is not doing anything to help draw in new viewers, he's merely keeping a nostalgia pop going.

The gimmick doesn't fit simply because they don't have any viable threats (and I use that term loosely) to feed him.

As someone said, expect his next appearence to have something to do with Matt Morgan.
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Old 04-23-2005, 01:29 AM   #47
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Undertaker doesn't suck
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Old 04-23-2005, 01:30 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Dragon
Most people in this forum took a great nostalgia trip when Undertaker came back at WM20. We all pretty much agreed it should of been a one time deal though. The fact that he is more over than Marky Mark is irrelevant. The fact that his entrance gets a big pop is irrelevant. He is not doing anything to help draw in new viewers, he's merely keeping a nostalgia pop going.
new fans and old fans people pay to see him so yes he does draw new viewers
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Old 04-23-2005, 02:03 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by John la Rock
new fans and old fans people pay to see him so yes he does draw new viewers
Where does that show in the ratings? I certainly would not buy a ticket to Smackdown in the "hopes" that he "may possibly" decide to come out and squash someone.
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Old 04-23-2005, 02:17 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by John la Rock
new fans and old fans people pay to see him so yes he does draw new viewers
Nowhere is there any proof of that.

The PPV's he's headlined since coming back as the Deadman have had very mediocre buy-rates and his segments on Smackdown are usually right in-line with the average for the show. So while he's not driving fans away, he's certainly not generating any special amount of interest. He might still be a draw at the gate, but I really can't see how he would be any more popular than guys like Eddie, Kurt, and Cena on the Smackdown roster. I'm pretty sure most people think of those guys first when they buy a ticket for a Smackdown event.
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Old 04-23-2005, 08:57 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by PureHatred
Nowhere is there any proof of that.

The PPV's he's headlined since coming back as the Deadman have had very mediocre buy-rates and his segments on Smackdown are usually right in-line with the average for the show. So while he's not driving fans away, he's certainly not generating any special amount of interest. He might still be a draw at the gate, but I really can't see how he would be any more popular than guys like Eddie, Kurt, and Cena on the Smackdown roster. I'm pretty sure most people think of those guys first when they buy a ticket for a Smackdown event.
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Old 04-23-2005, 08:58 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Dragon
Where does that show in the ratings? I certainly would not buy a ticket to Smackdown in the "hopes" that he "may possibly" decide to come out and squash someone.
You missed the special "JLR Nielsens" which magically tell him where the new viewers come in. Though there's really more evidence to suggest he's not bringing in new people.
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Old 04-23-2005, 02:41 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by roach21
I personally thought him not wanting to do the match with Kane against Snitsky and Heidenrich at Wrestlemania was kinda dumb. It would have given closure to both programs and continued a potentially exciting rivalry. Marks everywhere wet themselves with glee when Kane came out of that casket in the match with Heidenrich. Why not continue? Also, i still love the deadman gimmick, but it's getting trite now. No one's scared of him, he beats them, the loser back on smackdown the next week fighting the Brooklyn Brawler or something. His characters been watered down by the lack of originality from the creative team. He needs to do something to refesh the gimmick and maybe Taker going heel is the way to go.
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If the draft lottery could move Kane and Snitsky to SD! (which would be a major +), we could still conceivably see them in a UT & Kane vs. Snitsky & Heidenreich match as long as it's not overdone. They could do it at SS '05, and build up Snitsky & Heidenreich as a tag team, only to have them break up by 10/'05 and set up for a match between the 2---call it a "Psycho vs. Psycho" match.
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Old 04-23-2005, 06:50 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by the_rock's_#1_fan
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If the draft lottery could move Kane and Snitsky to SD! (which would be a major +), we could still conceivably see them in a UT & Kane vs. Snitsky & Heidenreich match as long as it's not overdone. They could do it at SS '05, and build up Snitsky & Heidenreich as a tag team, only to have them break up by 10/'05 and set up for a match between the 2---call it a "Psycho vs. Psycho" match.
Taker fought it before, what makes you think the program would work this time?
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Old 04-23-2005, 09:01 PM   #55
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anyway, they need to keep Taker and Kane as far from each other as possible.
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Old 04-23-2005, 09:52 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by roach21
I personally thought him not wanting to do the match with Kane against Snitsky and Heidenrich at Wrestlemania was kinda dumb. It would have given closure to both programs and continued a potentially exciting rivalry. Marks everywhere wet themselves with glee when Kane came out of that casket in the match with Heidenrich. Why not continue? Also, i still love the deadman gimmick, but it's getting trite now. No one's scared of him, he beats them, the loser back on smackdown the next week fighting the Brooklyn Brawler or something. His characters been watered down by the lack of originality from the creative team. He needs to do something to refesh the gimmick and maybe Taker going heel is the way to go.
I think actually LOOKING like a Dead Man might be a good start.
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Old 04-23-2005, 10:06 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Kane Knight
No need. It's just fun to call you a stupid fuck.

Especially when you give "examples" that don't stick out like a sore thumb (JBL) or ones that don't draw and more or less prove the point you're arguing against (Hogan).
Yeah I dunno Dave, that entire argument you gave was weak ass.
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Old 04-23-2005, 11:11 PM   #58
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See for me it's not about a stale character or his attendance to shows, it's the simple fact that he holds TALENTED and YOUNGER wrestlers back.

I couldn't believe they jobbed Orton to him at Mania!

The only people he will put over are the guys that have 'paid their dues' so essentially JBL and Holly (yeah right!)

And whoever suggested switching Kane and Snitsky to SD! to setup a tag fued...PLEASE! Both fueds played out a while ago. Plus Kane's character stinks.
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Old 04-23-2005, 11:14 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by X-L
See for me it's not about a stale character or his attendance to shows, it's the simple fact that he holds TALENTED and YOUNGER wrestlers back.

I couldn't believe they jobbed Orton to him at Mania!

The only people he will put over are the guys that have 'paid their dues' so essentially JBL and Holly (yeah right!)

And whoever suggested switching Kane and Snitsky to SD! to setup a tag fued...PLEASE! Both fueds played out a while ago. Plus Kane's character stinks.
When has Undertaker put anyone over period? It's not about dues...
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Old 04-23-2005, 11:18 PM   #60
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Actually, Orton shouldn't have gone over. but thats another argument all together I have discussed before.
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Old 04-23-2005, 11:37 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by JamesSteele
Actually, Orton shouldn't have gone over. but thats another argument all together I have discussed before.
Granted he was injured so putting him over at that point was err pointless.

Not sure if that's what you were gettin at????

Plus he doesn't DESERVE it but this is how much I have had enough with UT!
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Old 04-23-2005, 11:40 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesSteele
Actually, Orton shouldn't have gone over. but thats another argument all together I have discussed before.
I was so mixed on that. On the one hand, Orton may very well be one of the top superstars in the future. He's got Charisma and unlike Jericho, Christian, etc., he's actually got a chance to use it in the main event scene.

On the other hand, you combine an injured shoulder, a shitty backstage attitude, and the halfassed way they booked the match, and I wanted him to go down.

The problem is, I'm not fond of Taker continuing to win either. He needs to put someone over while he's still relavent.
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Old 04-24-2005, 07:24 AM   #63
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I guarantee you that there will be an Orton vs. Taker II at the next Wrestlemania.
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Old 04-24-2005, 08:43 AM   #64
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And it will be introduced 2 weeks before the event with limited buildup.
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