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Old 12-30-2005, 04:55 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla
You're right in that aspect, but again, Bret DID have creative control. When that was granted to him, Vince knew that something like this could potentially happen. Yes, Vince was his boss, but because of the creative control, it was Bret's right as an employee to decline. If Vince was so paranoid about it, he should have never given him creative control in the first place.
But what I'm saying here is this: Bret leaves the company. Although he still has another month before he goes, Vince has to basically act like Bret isn't there as far as storyline goes. Why build up or care about an angle that won't be there in 2-3 weeks? Once Bret quit, he should have known that all aspects of creative control would leave his hands.

And Bret was trying to force Vince into making a horrible business decision. Either way you put it: Whether Bret didn't want to lose to Michaels at SS or didn't want to lose to him at all.

Scenario #1: Bret doesn't want to lose to Michaels at SS due to personal issues.

How it Screws Vince: There is a major difference between having a title change hands at a PPV and having a title change hands on RAW.

Scenario #2: Bret didn't want to lose to Shawn at all.

How it screws Vince: Michaels was the top player in the game at the time. There was really nobody that could fill his shoes as far as ability, popularity, and lasting appeal. It would've been bad business to put the belt on anybody else at the time.
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Old 12-30-2005, 04:56 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartBreakKid2k
Because had Vince said that then Bret could have (and in my opinion, most likely would have) no showed and Vince would have been fucked out of his main event for one of the big four PPVs of the year.
The original beef wasn't Vince versus Bret. They loved each other.

It was Bret versus Shawn.

If Vince REALLY would have attempted to put his foot down, I think he would have succeeded. Bret didn't hate Vince McMahon (in 1997), and he had a reputation for being fiercely loyal to the company. I don't think he would just NO SHOW a fucking PPV main event.
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Old 12-30-2005, 04:59 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlyheaven
But what I'm saying here is this: Bret leaves the company. Although he still has another month before he goes, Vince has to basically act like Bret isn't there as far as storyline goes.
Why would that have to happen? He could have more build up with Michaels on Raw the whole month (and it's not like it would be forced, seeing as to how they would have just main evented the previous PPV with Bret as the victor) and just culminate the whole thing as the next PPV. In Your House, or whatever the fuck.
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Old 12-30-2005, 07:20 PM   #44
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It doesn't matter if it was Shawn Michaels, Taka Michinoku or Steve Austin that Bret Hart refused to job to. What does matter is that Vince McMahon agreed on a finish and then turned his back on the locker room. He gave his word and the pissed on it. He didn't have to do that at all. Bret legally couldn't go to WCW for another 30 days so if he went on Nitro the next night and threw the belt in the bin or whatever then he would be in breach of contract. Just like if Hulk Hogan showed up on Raw and did the same thing.

And if people think Bret Hart of all people would have done that then they need to pull their heads out of Vince McMahon's arse and their cocks out of Shawn Michaels' mouth.
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Old 12-30-2005, 07:35 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartBreakKid2k
I guess that's the difference then. I respect what you'er saying but at the same time, I don't think you refuse to job period. Regardless of where you're at. If you're told by your boss, to job, then you job. You have the right to disagree, but you still do your job. Vince didn't ask Bret to kiss Shawn's ass on national tv, so it's not like Vince was out to destroy Bret's character or out to humiliate Bret, he was merely doing what was best for HIS company.
So when given creative control, you don't have the right to turn down match options?

That seems stupid to me.
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Old 12-30-2005, 08:55 PM   #46
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zzzzzzzzzzzz

are you lot done yet???

I thought this issue wouldve been dead and buried by now, like this thread
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Old 12-30-2005, 09:11 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
So when given creative control, you don't have the right to turn down match options?

That seems stupid to me.
Especially when Hulk Hogan has the same deal and point blank refused to put over HBK and Vinnie Mac didn't bat an eyelid,
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Old 12-30-2005, 09:15 PM   #48
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Business.
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Old 12-31-2005, 05:00 PM   #49
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You can sort of see both sides of the issue.

Vince should have shut his mouth about breaching brets contract until after Bret jobbed it ( probably to Austin or Shamrock) and then told bret " hey listen..about that 20 years..I was kidding..now fuck off"


Bret was FORCED out of the WWE -and what makes it worse is that on his way out he has to job to a guy who told him that he would never job to bret. Bret even stated that he would job to Michaels after that ...

I think for Brets loyalty and him giving all to the company he should have at least had one last request which was not to lose in his hometown. If bret was allowed to leave the way he wanted what reason would there be for him to take the belt to WCW?


in the end, It was an issue of horrible timing..
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Old 01-01-2006, 02:00 AM   #50
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I've read as many replies as I can bring myself to read, and one more time, it's all the same stuff again, so I'll call it how I see it one more time. I honestly don't disagree with Vince wanting Bret to drop the title to Shawn at Survivor Series, and Bret whining about it WAS pretty lame, but on the same hand, if Vince told Bret he could do the Double Disqualification thing, then that's how it should've gone down, period. If Vince wasn't willing to back down, he shouldn't have, and if Bret didn't like it, well, my backup for that is simple. A forfeit victory for Shawn Michaels.

What could be worse than that? I mean, it's one thing to fight and just come up short, but not even to come out to face your arch nemesis in your "home country" in front of all of your fans? I think that would've hurt Bret far more than being locked in a Sharpshooter and clearly NOT submitting.
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Old 01-01-2006, 03:08 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGyver007
You can sort of see both sides of the issue.
I can't.
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Old 01-01-2006, 03:24 AM   #52
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Talking about Montreal, AGAIN?

Is this a slow news day?
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Old 01-01-2006, 03:31 AM   #53
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Old 01-01-2006, 11:58 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob
I can't.
Yeah, but then again, you can never seem to see Vince's side in anything.
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Old 01-01-2006, 12:41 PM   #55
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My uninvited and unwanted opinion:

Vince made the big 20 year deal with Bret, and the clause was put in that for the final 30 days of Bret's contract, he has reasonable creative control, so as to avoid being unfairly buried on his way out. Vince made that deal, so he can't piss and moan about the fact that he had to go by the terms of it. It was with Vince's urging (both directly and indirectly) for Bret to go to WCW, thus beginning the period of Bret's "reasonable" control. Vince was in a situation where he wanted to get the belt off Bret, and Bret, as he'd been painted all along as the Canadian Hero, likely felt that it would hurt him significantly to lose to Michaels with the way the match was built, and his personal dislike of Shawn probably helped him not want to lose that one (coming off of things like Bret saying he's lose to Shawn, and Shawn replying with words to the effect of "that's nice, but I wouldn't do it for you"). Bret really didn't do anything wrong from a legal standpoint, as the situation he was put in was incited by and created by Vince himself.

Shawn did one-up Bret, and Vince screwed him. Bret got hosed.
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Old 01-01-2006, 01:39 PM   #56
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SHAWN, EARL HEBNER, VINCE, HHH, JR (porbably), PATT PATERSON, THE DIRECTOR ( he told the vision mixer who which camera to put on air - thus we get an angle where we cant see brets face while in the sharpshooter)

SCREWED BRET HART - in the end it was a dirty thing that a number of guys did against one of their own.
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Old 01-01-2006, 01:43 PM   #57
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You know, right now I'm starting to miss The Rock... You wanna know why?




IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO SCREWED BRET!!!
It was over 8 years ago, and it looks like relationships have been somewhat mended albeit it'll never be the same. Please, and this one goes out to the whole internet, get over it.
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Old 01-01-2006, 01:54 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepsi Man
Yeah, but then again, you can never seem to see Vince's side in anything.
Now you know that's a lie.
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Old 01-01-2006, 02:46 PM   #59
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Actually I'm not sure Pat was in on it. He's a big Bret sider, and Briscoe even excluded Pat from the whole thing.
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Old 01-01-2006, 03:24 PM   #60
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Of course he was in on it.
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Old 01-01-2006, 04:34 PM   #61
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Even though this topic is done to death, there have been many valid points. My opinion on this is, that Bret was in the wrong. Everyone knew he was leaving, and even though he had creative control, that should have been thrown out. And I really can't stand that Bret always acts like he is the victim, when he brought it on himself. It was documented that he asked Earl Hebner not to screw him in the match, so he knew the possibilities of what was going down.

Also, everyone can say that when Bret was heading to WCW, they were worried about what he would do with the belt. Even though Bret may not take the belt to WCW, when you are Vince McMahon, you have to protect your business and can't take chances like that.

One last thing, if Survivor Series would not have been held in Montreal, I can almost guaran-dam-tee that we would not be talking about this today.
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Old 01-02-2006, 05:11 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FourFifty
You know, right now I'm starting to miss The Rock... You wanna know why?




IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO SCREWED BRET!!!
It was over 8 years ago, and it looks like relationships have been somewhat mended albeit it'll never be the same. Please, and this one goes out to the whole internet, get over it.
Hey, that's a nice Rock impression there, but obviously somebody is still thinking about it. Who are you to tell them not to? If you didn't want to hear about it anymore, the thread title alone should have led you not to click on it. Is it a pre-requisite to be a dick around here?
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Old 01-02-2006, 07:06 AM   #63
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I'm in favor of management. Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart were both being immature, even if it was moreso Shawn than Bret. The thing was though that Mr. McMahon was absolutely sure that Shawn would be on Raw the next night. And since Bret was being stubborn, Mr. McMahon lied to him. Was it right? No, but a case could be made that it was necessary.
 
Old 01-02-2006, 08:17 AM   #64
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everybody screwed everybody.....end of story

Quote:
Originally Posted by 311
I'm pumped for High School Musical 2! I hope it's not just like the first one!

I don't know if you guys have ever heard any 7-10 year olds talk about the Disney channel, but it's honestly like listening to people talk about this whole other world that is paralell to our own. They talk about some of the Disney kids like they're the biggest fucking shit going.
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Old 01-02-2006, 10:22 AM   #65
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To everyone who's saying "Get over it" and "who cares," Keep in mind this is coming up ONLY because Vince McMahon and the WWE brought it up. Jesus Christ, do you really expect a main event "controversy" to not start discussion?
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Old 01-02-2006, 10:25 AM   #66
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well Paul Heyman believed bret was right, Undertaker thought bret was right and so were nearly all the insiders. If shawn michaels relly and truly believed what he took part in was right then why, after it had happened, did he say to bret " Bret i swear to god I had nothing to do with it, "

While both parties were catalyst to the event that re-defined wrestling, I thing the WWfF holds 90% of the blame with Bret holding the 10%

In the end the biggest loser in the screwjob was Bret Hart.


BTW: in the movie about jesse ventura's life they did the screwjob angle
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Old 01-02-2006, 10:41 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94 SVT Cobra
everybody screwed everybody.....end of story
Your bitching about neg rep and getting called an idiot would be funnier if you could spell Egypt or its rulers right.
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Old 01-02-2006, 01:00 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
To everyone who's saying "Get over it" and "who cares," Keep in mind this is coming up ONLY because Vince McMahon and the WWE brought it up. Jesus Christ, do you really expect a main event "controversy" to not start discussion?
That's why we should all get over it though. If we ignore it, Vince will have to at some point.
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Old 01-02-2006, 01:22 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by MacGyver007
If shawn michaels relly and truly believed what he took part in was right then why, after it had happened, did he say to bret " Bret i swear to god I had nothing to do with it, "
I'm sorry, but please don't be so gullible. Do you really think Shawn wanted to catch the ass-whooping that Bret undoubtedly was prepared to dish out?
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Old 01-02-2006, 04:15 PM   #70
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oh please. the point here is that Shawn "believes" he did the right thing..why not say so to bret...why GO into the changeroom and lie. He could have just left the arena - without trying to cover anything up.

end result : shawn knew he was doing something that was wrong. He knew he would get his ass kicked because of it...so he did what HBK does best..lie
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Old 01-02-2006, 04:38 PM   #71
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That's why we should all get over it though. If we ignore it, Vince will have to at some point.
You'd think so, wouldn't you?
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Old 01-02-2006, 04:59 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlyheaven
I know this has been brought up probably more than any other topic in the history of this forum but since alot of attention has gone to the incident lately, I thought this would be appropriate to bring up. Everybody always goes on and on about how Vince screwed Bret and that it was a shitty thing to do ...blah blah blah. Wait a sec though. Correct me if I'm wrong but part of what started the situation is that Bret refused to job to Michaels for the belt before he left off to WCW. The way I see it, Bret never really had the right to refuse to lose to Michaels in the first place. Whether he hated the guy or not, this seems like an extremely unprofessional thing to do. Especially taking into consideration that it wasn't going to matter anyway once he left off to WCW. That put Vince in a tough spot as far as booking goes. The match was already set up. I say Vince did what he had to do due to the fact that he was dealing with a very stubborn worker. I most likely would've done something similar. Alot of people will say 'oh, it didn't matter what Vince thought to Bret cause he was leaving. bla, blah blah.'. In any other line of work, you are an active contributing employee until your very last day of work. The fact that he refused to do what the boss told him out of dislike for his opponent shows that he didn't care what state he left the company in after his departure. If Bret didn't care about the WWF or Vince then why should Vince have cared about him?

Just the way I see it. Thoughts?


Every time this topic is brought up, I lose even more respect for Shitman Fart and all other Canadians elsewhere.

THIS HAPPENED OVER 8 YEARS AGO. GET OVER IT!


Bret Hart is a douche bag. Shawn Michaels is no saint either, but he spoke the absolute truth when he said that Bret Hart claimed to stand for some moral fiber that really didn't exist in his world, yet chose to judge others.

Bret Hart showed a complete lack of professionalism by refusing to job cleanly to HBK that night. So what if HBK didn't want to job to him a few years earlier?

Does two wrongs make a right? Shouldn't a so-called "moral man" like Bret Hart realize this?

Instead - Bret decided to stoop down to HBK's level.




This is the Sports-Entertainment business people. 99% of it is STORYLINE.

Bret complaining that he didn't want to lose the belt to HBK in Canada because he's a hero there, would be the same as Mel Gibson's Braveheart character stating that he didn't want to die in Scotland, because he's a hero there.



Lastly - Bret has recently proven that he's an ego-maniac by doing business with the WWE...with his new DVD about to be released. Obviously - Bret cares more about his 'legacy' and ego, as opposed to his own personal integrity.

Even during Owen Hart's death during the funeral, Bret rarely even spoke about Owen. All he could talk about with Vince, was getting the rights to his footage.


As far as Vince and the WWE constantly bringing up Montreal, IT'S GOOD FOR BUSINESS!

The reason why it's constantly brought up in Canada, is because Canadian marks like Zen v.W.o and Rob can't let go of their ridiculous deep rooted grudge. The WWE play upon it.

Outside of Canada, the screwjob is rarely ever brought up.




Bottom line? Vince = terrific business man. He used the Montreal Screwjob as a way of launching the highly successful Attitude era.

Bret Hart seriously needs to move on......or just get a gun and hunt down Vince or something.
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Old 01-02-2006, 05:03 PM   #73
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In Bret's defense he is always asked about it... He ususally doesn't bring it up first. Bret does want to move on and has even stated he wants to move on. Bret would love Montreal to go away.

I don't blame Vince for bringing up Montreal since he's trying to make money off it.

Montreal will never die.
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Old 01-02-2006, 05:09 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Delaney
THIS HAPPENED OVER 8 YEARS AGO. GET OVER IT!

(........)

As far as Vince and the WWE constantly bringing up Montreal, IT'S GOOD FOR BUSINESS!
If those fans did get over it, Vince wouldn't have this as a money maker. That's why the WWE keeps bringing it up. So it doesn't die and they lose all that money.
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Old 01-02-2006, 05:32 PM   #75
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Quote:
Bret complaining that he didn't want to lose the belt to HBK in Canada because he's a hero there, would be the same as Mel Gibson's Braveheart character stating that he didn't want to die in Scotland, because he's a hero there.
What kind of fucking stupid analogy is this?

Quote:
Lastly - Bret has recently proven that he's an ego-maniac by doing business with the WWE...with his new DVD about to be released. Obviously - Bret cares more about his 'legacy' and ego, as opposed to his own personal integrity.
Do wrestlers go through a long career of putting on good to great matches to have to summed up in a DVD called "Bret Hart: Screwed"? If anything Bret took Vince's obsession with Montreal, and changed it to something that would benefit the fans instead of having us listen to the same tired "Bret refused to lose" inaccurate crap that Vince and WWE, not Bret, were going to give us. The fact he gives a rats ass about his career and legacy that he worked hard and long for is actually a positive in someways, you know.
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Old 01-02-2006, 05:43 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Delaney
Even during Owen Hart's death during the funeral, Bret rarely even spoke about Owen. All he could talk about with Vince, was getting the rights to his footage.
yea, tell me where you heard this? Cause I just laughed my ass off.
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Old 01-02-2006, 05:53 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
yea, tell me where you heard this? Cause I just laughed my ass off.
Vince McMahon mentioned this a few years ago (can't remember where and when). He talked about how he mentioned Owen in about ONE sentence at the funeral.

Obviously, I thought nothing of it back then since Vince may have been biased.

Recently on Canada's Off the Record however, Bret basically admitted the same thing in a round-a-bout way. He also talked about meeting Vince at Owen's funeral, and spoke about the footage.....at his brother's funeral.

I mean, good god. This is your own brother's funeral for Christ sakes.
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Old 01-02-2006, 05:57 PM   #78
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That may have been the only time Bret ever spoke to Vince again though. Not to mention it would have stupid.
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Old 01-02-2006, 06:00 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hb2k
What kind of fucking stupid analogy is this?
An accurate one? Triple H used that same analogy in the past. Since Paul Levesque is a much smarter man than you, me, or Bret, I tend to respect his opinions quite highly.



Quote:
Do wrestlers go through a long career of putting on good to great matches to have to summed up in a DVD called "Bret Hart: Screwed"? If anything Bret took Vince's obsession with Montreal, and changed it to something that would benefit the fans instead of having us listen to the same tired "Bret refused to lose" inaccurate crap that Vince and WWE, not Bret, were going to give us. The fact he gives a rats ass about his career and legacy that he worked hard and long for is actually a positive in someways, you know.
All this shows, is that Bret is insecure. You don't think that there are already TONS of Bret Hart matches out there on DVD/tape?

Regardless of the Montreal Screw job, Bret will be remembered as a great wrestler. He's not in the same league as HBK, Flair, Kurt Angle, or Eddie Guerrero, but he's great nonetheless. His fans know this.

Bret is doing this DVD for a few reasons:

1) His ego.

2) Money.

Nothing more, nothing less. Did I also mention that by doing this, he's completely compromising his integrity?


For a company that supposedly completely "screwed" him and wrecked his career, Bret seems awfully interested in doing business with the WWE.
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Old 01-02-2006, 06:02 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Delaney
Vince McMahon mentioned this a few years ago (can't remember where and when).
lol. am I really suppossed to take you seriously if you believe Vince. He mentioned it after the Funeral on Off the Record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
Recently on Canada's Off the Record however, Bret basically admitted the same thing in a round-a-bout way. He also talked about meeting Vince at Owen's funeral, and spoke about the footage.....at his brother's funeral.

I mean, good god. This is your own brother's funeral for Christ sakes.
Wow, talk about only wanting to hear things you want to hear. I have that show on tape. Tell me, did you watch the entire bit or what? Bret's met with Vince in a park in Calgary after the Funeral. NOT DURING THE FUNERAL. Bret's lawyers requested he not talk about the court case or anything to that extent. Yes, the video footage was brought up, which Bret had been trying to get for months now. Vince said Bret could have everything. Bret called the office a few weeks later and Vince's secratary said Vince said he never recalled any conversation.

Even Lansberry thought Vince was full of shit when Vince came on his show.
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