Rock's thoughts on HBK? Wrestlemania

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by wwe2222 1. It was a major summerslam PPV (at a time when there were only 4 ppvs during the year) 2. They had never done such an event in England or outside North America 3. He was wrestling DAVEY BOY SMITH...who is from England if you have forgotten....I think that MAY have had something to do with the draw. So dont give so much praise to Bret for that.

I would never deny that Bulldog was the bigger draw of the two, but there were plenty of Bret Hart fans in that crowd, so part of the draw of that show was Bret.

And when HBK had a similar chance to draw a crowd like that (in his hometown no less) they barely sodl half the seats.

I guarantee you, at Bret Hart's peak he would have sold 70,000 tickets anywhere in Canada, but especially in Calgary.

[wwe2222]

and its not that i dont like Bret. I do, he put on some of my favorite matches (vs Mr Perfect, vs HBK, etc)...

but I think the sympathy he got from Montreal lifted him to a level, for some fans, where he is the end all be all of pro wrestling and he can do no wrong. I just dont hold him in that esteem.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by wwe2222 and its not that i dont like Bret. I do, he put on some of my favorite matches (vs Mr Perfect, vs HBK, etc)... but I think the sympathy he got from Montreal lifted him to a level, for some fans, where he is the end all be all of pro wrestling and he can do no wrong. I just dont hold him in that esteem.

Well thats fine, but its not the point of the debate.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Scott Delaney Lucky for you it isn't.........eh? Otherwise - I'd have to talk aboot how shitty the Leafs, Raptors, and Blue Jays are this year. Why don't YOU show some facts and figures with links. And no - I don't consider anything under the domain .ca to be valid. Lame ass CAnadians. As far as HBK and Bret go - HBK was FORCED out of the ring with injuries in 98. He wasn't basically begged to leave like Bret was. HUGE difference.

Who cares? Doesn't have anything to do with who outdrew the other guy.

You want facts, go email Dave Meltzer and ask him for past copies of the Observer (you'll have to pay so save your allowance) and you'll get all the facts you need.

[Scott Delaney]

Originally Posted by wwe2222 but I think the sympathy he got from Montreal lifted him to a level, for some fans, where he is the end all be all of pro wrestling and he can do no wrong. I just dont hold him in that esteem.

EXACTLY.

The more Montreal keeps getting spoken about......(something that Bret Hart loves to speak about in length when its brought up by his sheep).....the more that Bret appears to be a bigger legend.

THAT is one reason why Bret chooses NOT to let the subject of Montreal go away. He's a self-centered ego-maniac. Like I said in other threads - I have absolutely no problem with people being like that. HBK and Vince are the same way.

My only beef with Bret, is that he chooses to use the 'morality' card against others.....when its clear that his moral foundation is no better than the people he criticises.


HBK said it best, "Bret pretends to stand for some moral fiber that doesn't exist in his real world.......yet he stands in judgment of me."

[Scott Delaney]

Originally Posted by wwe2222 but I think the sympathy he got from Montreal lifted him to a level, for some fans, where he is the end all be all of pro wrestling and he can do no wrong. I just dont hold him in that esteem.

EXACTLY.

The more Montreal keeps getting spoken about......(something that Bret Hart loves to speak about in length when its brought up by his sheep).....the more that Bret appears to be a bigger legend.

THAT is one reason why Bret chooses NOT to let the subject of Montreal go away. He's a self-centered ego-maniac. Like I said in other threads - I have absolutely no problem with people being like that. HBK and Vince are the same way.

My only beef with Bret, is that he chooses to use the 'morality' card against others.....when its clear that his moral foundation is no better than the people he criticises.


HBK said it best, "Bret pretends to stand for some moral fiber that doesn't exist in his real world.......yet he stands in judgment of me."

[wwe2222]

ok, i dont want to go too off topic about montreal, etc etc...

I think if you look at the US drawings, the were very similiar and HBK came out ahead.

Canada is a different story in itself. Canadians have a much greater sense of pride for their heroes, etc etc.

[FourFifty]

Here's how I see things....

Let's talk about how much Hulk Hogan drew. I'll be my soul that he would have drawn half as much if it weren’t for Andre, The Warrior, Randy Savage, The Million Dollar Man, Sgt Slaughter, or anyone else he had a match with.
Same thing goes for The Rock, The Undertaker, Steve Austin, The LOD, The Dudley Boyz, Tommy Dreamer (in his ECW days), Jeff Jarrett, Frank Gotch, Lou Thez, Ricky Steamboat, Double A, and everyone else who has made a name for themself in this industry.

Now let's book Bret Hart VS Barry Horwitz. Push that to the main event. How about HBK VS a wet dish rag? I know there are some wrestlers out there who can carry an entire match (Eddie, Ric Flair, RVD) but wrestlers like these are few and far between.

When they were in the main event Bret Hart drew just as much as HBK. That takes a lot for me to say because I’m not exactly a Bret Hart fan. If it wasn’t for everyone that helped Bret look good he’d draw just as much as Jambi the Genie.

[FourFifty]

>

[FourFifty]

Originally Posted by Somebody's Gotta Die Ahum, the focus isn't on the Rock here, it's on FINLAY... He's giving new meaning to the term: FIGHTING IRISH...

Will you shut the fuck up about Finlay? Jesus Christ, it's not like we're going to see Jericho in the ring.

[FourFifty]

This takes a lot for me to say....
































You're more annoying that MacGyver007.

[Somebody's Gotta Die]

Originally Posted by FourFifty This takes a lot for me to say.... Finlay is a FIGHTING IRISH BASTARD... (Don't tell him I said that to his face) You're more annoying that MacGyver007.

[John la Rock]

Originally Posted by Scott Delaney And I'd say that you're probably a dumbass biased Canadian mark! As far as this discussion is concerned, I'll give my two cents: -Shawn Michaels drew far more than Threat Fart. Why else do you think Vince wanted Bret to take the offer that WCW made him in 97'? Is it just a coincidence that WWE ratings went THROUGH THE ROOF shortly after the departure of Threat Fart? No - I'd say no. On the other hand, look what happened to WCW? WCW was DESTROYING the WWE in ratings. Bret Hart shows up, flaunts his ego, and the company ultimately went down the toilet. WCW had a great thing going with Flair, Hogan, etc. at the top, until Hart started whining about the 'glass ceiling', etc. Hart basically became the spokesman for the non-main-eventers (as to how they were supposedly being 'held back') and this created a huge friction within the company. Bret Hart a respectable man? LOL. Hardly. Like I said in other threads - this guy is still using the 'Montreal' incident (along with Owen's death) to mint in money from his sheep fans. With the exception of Diesel, Bret was the SMALLEST draw as champion. Vince knew this, and that's why Vince let Diesel and Bret go. -The Rock is incorrect when he says HBK wasn't as big a star as Foley.....although I understand The Rock's bitterness in this situation. HBK was apparently a dick to The Rock during his formative years, and so I see no reason for The Rock to be gracious back. Having said that - Goldberg, Austin, and Hogan are far bigger than HBK...so he's right there.

yes because only Canadians like Bret Hart

I don't like debating with 11 year olds so i won't bother saying much else. Cynick pretty much said everything there is to say.

next time try to speak from your mouth instead of your ass

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by The One Shawn Michaels name drew more the Bret Hart...But Bret was a respectable man, I guess Rock would go with someone who he respects. What an asshole!

Shawn apparently was the worst drawing champion in history.

[Kane Knight]

I believe the worst drawing champion was Big Show. He never could stay in the lines.

[.44 Magdalene]

Everytime somebody says "Fart" instead of "Hart," I want futuristic contact modules implanted in my monitor so I can punch people over the internet. It's not cute. It's not funny. It's not witty. It's childish and annoying and any point you may have is diminished by how irritating you sound when you do that.

Jesus Christ.

[Kane Knight]

Howabout "Shitman?"

[.44 Magdalene]

I used to say things like Kevin Rash, Snot Hall, Scott Weiner (or Whiner) Eric Bitchoff and Sulk Hogie when I played WCW/NWO: Revenge on N64.

[FourFifty]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight Howabout "Shitman?"

I lol'd

[Zen v.W.o.]

Originally Posted by The One Hart can't step in a ring...seriously guys I know this is hard to realise but if a strong breeze hits Bret's head he is fucked. No more in ring work for Hart. Accept that. As for the idea that Hart at one point or another could out draw Michaels...I say nay, however I fully admit there is a lot of conversation to be had, and many debates to settle since it would be all but impossible to determine exactly who could out draw who at any point in time.

Hart has a larger following. I'd say he could outdraw and did outdraw HBK.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Originally Posted by Scott Delaney One final comment: It's also a bit ridiculous to compare HBK's drawing power to Threat Farts. Bret was a face throughout most of his career, while HBK was mainly a heel. Bret needs to be compared more with guys like Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, The Rock, and John Cena/Batista......the so called blue-chippers of their respective eras. Out of those 6, Bret is clearly the weakest draw. Even Triple H, during his stalest of times, was a bigger draw than Threat Fart, The Fart Foundation, and any other reject that was trained in Poo Fart's dungeon.

I know what you're trying to do buddy, but HBK's main world title run was while he was the top babyface around, and Bret left the company for most of that year. HBK just couldnt pull it off all alone, and I dont blame him for that.

Worldwide, Bret was the man drawing for the company.

[Zen v.W.o.]

I'd say both guys were also bigger than Goldberg, HBK and Bret. Goldberg had some wcw popularity for a couple of years. He faded afterwards, HBK and Bret haven't.

[John la Rock]

^ i agree

[Scott Delaney]

Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o. I'd say both guys were also bigger than Goldberg, HBK and Bret. Goldberg had some wcw popularity for a couple of years. He faded afterwards, HBK and Bret haven't.

I think a good argument can be made that HBK is bigger than Goldberg (for the reasons that you stated), but definitely not Threat Fart. To imply that Bret is as big as Goldberg, is a severe disrespect to Goldberg.

The only reason why Bret continues to have popularity today, is because of Montreal (since his sheep fans won't let 'Montreal' go.....nor will Bret allow it to).

Lets face facts - If 'Montreal' hadn't happened, then Bret Hart would basically be just another Ultimate Warrior or Sgt. Slaughter (i.e. a guy who had his 15 minutes of fame, but was then passed). Just like those two - Bret would have his place in history, but wouldn't belong in the same stratosphere as guys like The Rock, Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, Ric Flair, and Shawn Michaels.


Also - lets look at this objectively. Outside of CANADA - Bret Hart really wasn't all THAT popular (relative to guys like The Rock, Austin, Hogan, etc.).


As much as Threat Fart and his Canadian marks want to believe otherwise, Bret simply ISN'T an icon outside of Canada.

In fact - The Rock, Austin, and Hogan are even BIGGER in Canada than Bret.


Did Bret have popularity in Britain? YES. Why? Because - British Bulldog was a part of the Fart Foundation back in 97'...and Threat Fart was appreciated as result.



On the subject of Goldberg, Goldberg was REALLY helping ratings for WCW.....even if it was temporary. In terms of star power, Bret can't even hold Goldberg's jockstrap. Other than better technical wrestling ability, the only think Bret has over Goldberg, is extra foreskin.

[Kane Knight]

Whereas Michaels is bigger than Jesus.

[Kane Knight]

And I don't just mean better hung.

[Scott Delaney]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight Whereas Michaels is bigger than Jesus.

Speaking of which, I wonder who delivers better sexual performances in the sack? HBK and Bret are getting up there in age, but can they still deliver 5 star performances?

Who "sells" better?

[The MAC]

yes... now fuck off and go watch smackdown

[Pepsi Man]

Originally Posted by Scott Delaney Did Bret have popularity in Britain? YES. Why? Because - British Bulldog was a part of the Fart Foundation back in 97'...and Threat Fart was appreciated as result.

Wow, I read up to here and can't take you seriously anymore on the grounds that you seem to be so ignorant of pro wrestling's past. Not that in life pro wrestling knowledge counts for much, BUT if you're going to discuss something, please have some clue what the fuck you're talking about.

-Regards

[The MAC]

look, Bret Hart was a worldwide draw - He drew an entire country (yes, Canada) was a fan faovourite all over Europe, and Africa.

Michaels drew in the U.S well - from 96 onwards. Bret drew big in the U.S from 1990.

BRET = WORLDWIDE DRAW so does the ROCK

Michaels = USA

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Scott Delaney Speaking of which, I wonder who delivers better sexual performances in the sack? HBK and Bret are getting up there in age, but can they still deliver 5 star performances? Who "sells" better?

Is Jesus still in the running here? BEcause I hear he can "Lay on hands" like no other.