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Old 12-07-2006, 09:33 AM   #41
SuperSlim
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the best storylines don't involve the title.
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:37 AM   #42
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because they dont need it to enhance them.
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:39 AM   #43
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Yes, I know. Believe it or not, I am not asserting that.

And since you keep moving towards wording that was mine, why the Hell are you still even arguing with me, especially when you have to "enhance" an argument with points I never claimed you made?
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:41 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSlim
the best storylines don't involve the title.
In fact, a meaningful match will be meaningful with or without the title.
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:47 AM   #45
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and I think he is finally beginning to see and understand that
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:47 AM   #46
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I was responding to superslim, I'm not still arguing with you.
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:49 AM   #47
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Nah, I maintain everything I said from the get go.
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:55 AM   #48
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Funny, Slim and I seem to be saying roughly the same thing, and you were quoting me up until like one post ago.

Meh. Whatever.

As long as you're not still asserting that a title sometimes makes the match, or the argument of de facto meaning (your first post) in a title match just because it's a title match.
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:56 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeritron5000
Nah, I maintain everything I said from the get go.
Funny, considering your statements are radically different from your original ones.
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Old 12-07-2006, 10:04 AM   #50
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I meant that prior to any booking (storyline and title fued alike) you have guarunteed matches for the card, in title defenses. Thats where the prop comes in.
Then it turned into the title not giving meaning. To which I said that it can enhance or be the basis was what I was getting at.
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Old 12-07-2006, 10:06 AM   #51
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I know a prop with meaning - Sauron's Ring of Power.
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Old 12-07-2006, 10:07 AM   #52
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Another thing I was getting at with my whole "default match" and "fued enhancing" thing is the layout for a ppv.
What was the last WWE ppv without 3 or 4 title matches on its card?
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Old 12-07-2006, 10:19 AM   #53
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You said of meaning.

How many of those matches are actually meaningful?
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Old 12-07-2006, 10:39 AM   #54
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Well what do you mean by meaningful? I dont mean that all of the matches are going to be Austin/Bret 97. I just mean that its allows booking a 3hr ppv that isnt a complete abomination.
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Old 12-07-2006, 10:58 AM   #55
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Well, you're the one who made the statement of "meaningful," but I'd say matches that, for example, weren't booked like utter filler, like many tag matches and midcard title matches have been.
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:01 AM   #56
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And yes, I know that some of the recent midcard/tag matches have been worth a fuck. That's far from guaranteed meaning, especially when some of those guaranteed titles go MIA (Have we even seen a PPV CW title defense in like, the entire reign of Helms?)
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Old 12-07-2006, 12:26 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeritron5000
Another thing I was getting at with my whole "default match" and "fued enhancing" thing is the layout for a ppv.
What was the last WWE ppv without 3 or 4 title matches on its card?
I hate to be a dick, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy
Matt Hardy def. Cruiserweight Champion Gregory Helms (Non-Title Match)
WWE Tag Team Champions London & Kendrick def. K.C. James & Idol Stevens
Montel Vontavious Porter def. Marty Garner
United States Champion Mr. Kennedy def. Undertaker (DQ; Non-Title Match)
Rey Mysterio def. Chavo Guerrero (Falls Count Anywhere Match)
Chris Benoit def. William Regal
World Heavyweight Champion King Booker def. Bobby Lashley, Batista and Finlay (Fatal Four Way Match)
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Old 12-07-2006, 12:46 PM   #58
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Just to clarify, when was the last time the CW title was defended?

Because it's definitely the title on SD! More likely than not to be defended, despite the "guarantee" he's been mentioning.
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Old 12-07-2006, 12:52 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
Just to clarify, when was the last time the CW title was defended?

Because it's definitely the title on SD! More likely than not to be defended, despite the "guarantee" he's been mentioning.
To be honest, the Cruiserweight Title was on the line when Helms wrestled Matt Hardy at the Great American Bash, which was SmackDown!'s last single-brand Pay-Per-View.
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Old 12-07-2006, 01:20 PM   #60
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Oh, Geez. That was right around when I was missing Smackdown, so I didn't realise it was for the title.
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Old 12-07-2006, 01:24 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
Oh, Geez. That was right around when I was missing Smackdown, so I didn't realise it was for the title.
Honestly, I don't even remember them mentioning in the buildup to the match that it was for the title, but apparently, it was.
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Old 12-07-2006, 01:30 PM   #62
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Helms defended the Cruiserweight Title at both the Great American Bash in July, and No Mercy in October, both times against Matt Hardy.
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Old 12-07-2006, 01:45 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Helms defended the Cruiserweight Title at both the Great American Bash in July, and No Mercy in October, both times against Matt Hardy.
Nah, at No Mercy, it was a non title match.
Last edited by Pepsi Man; 12-08-2006 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 12-07-2006, 03:39 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
Seriously, that's not a line of reasoning that actually illustrated cause and effect, it's a line of reasoning that says "It was bad, but let's ignore the lack of hype and booking and thought and instead blame the length of the show and size of the roster."
The reason the PPV sucked was because the booking et al was piss-poor.

The reason the PPV was so short was because of a lack of over wrestlers to put on the show without the PPV audience asking themselves "so who's this guy again?".

I think those saying ECW needs a two hour show aren't far off the mark. One hour isn't long enough to establish the VOLUME of feuds and characters needed to fill a three hour PPV. Next time, if there is a next time, ECW won't have the Elimination Chamber to fill out the card. Short of booking more needlessly long 30 minute slugfests involving non-ECW wrestlers like the Hardyz/MNM, ECW needs a greater number of wrestlers established in their weekly shows.

Still, a 2 hour show still renders the point moot if the writers are as lazy and uninspired as they have been so far.

And finally, the following wrestlers were not used at ECW December To Disappoint:

Al Snow
CW Anderson
Danny Doring
Jazz
Rene Dupre
Sabu
Sandman
Shannon Moore
Stevie Richards
Great Khali
Trinity

Okay, I believe Snow and Anderson were unable to attend due to various issues. But there are several marketable matches in there (Sandman vs Sabu, Doring vs Richards, Jazz vs Trinity) that could have filled out time and provided some action, even if there is no storyline reason for them to take place. That ECW D2D was allowed to only run for just over 2 hours is as much Vince's lack of foresight as it is a lack of wrestlers on the roster.

There. I managed to contradict within the same post.
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Old 12-07-2006, 03:41 PM   #65
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And yeah, I realise I'm a little late wading into this argument.
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Old 12-07-2006, 04:22 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeanderCarl
There. I managed to contradict within the same post.
DAMMIT! I wanted to pounce on that like Jacko on a little boy.

Actually, it's more the "My conclusion is supported by a non conclusive event where other factors may have lead to its suckitude." Argument.

I do think ECW could use more time, though I agree more with Pepsi Man on talent. They need real talent, not more talent. We can send them all the Tests and Daivaris we can, and still watch the entire show be a suckfest.

The main problem, though, is shitty booking. I think every wrestling show could do with some more time, but they're not exactly offering us a lot in the time theyé got.
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Old 12-08-2006, 12:45 AM   #67
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I find myself agreeing with both sides of this debate. However, I the time alotment aside, I think the biggest setback in building up wrestlers and finding actual talent, is in the dismissive attitude from the WWE elite.

I will never understand vince's thot process from "Revive ECW because of the diehard fanbase" to "Let's stop the extreme style of ECW because the fanbase won't support it". That being said, they're still calling it "ECW". But they're not acting like ECW has a history. If they played on the pasts of the "old guys", they'd have all the power they needed.

You want to get Kevin Thorn over? Put him in a feud with Tommy Dreamer and have them actually wrestle. Thorn seems to have a unique arsenal, and Dreamer is an established ECW guy. Thorn and Knox is a dead calm; neither are established Extremists, and both could be -- and probably are -- seen as posers from WWE. But you mix up a new guy like Thorn with a classic like Dreamer, the fans may ease into respecting him.

It works for everyone like that. Sandman and Knox could just beat the shit out of each other; RVD and CM Punk could work wonders in a match together; Hell, a storyline in which Rene Dupree feuds with Stevie Richards could be gold.

It's mainly the idea that you need to phase into things slowly in this situation, as opposed to the brickwall slam they're currently attempting.
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Old 12-08-2006, 03:20 AM   #68
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I personally think Benoit should have returned to ECW instead of being on smackdown holding the US title. He'd be much more needed and better used in ECW than on Smackdown.
After Kurt Angle departed, I think is where things started to go downhill. I'm pretty sure the title reign and storyline Big Show was booked in was originally intended for Angle. Theres no basis for this other than my opinion but I think he was going to be Heymans leader for the new breed and hand picked to hold the title, resulting in a long reign. This got fucked up. Then RVD and Sabu had their fiasco and that hurt them.
From there they should have introduced 1 or 2 more names that fit well. Like Benoit and/or Mysterio, perhaps even Jeff Hardy in his return.
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Old 12-08-2006, 05:14 AM   #69
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It seems to me that it sucked mostly because the entire undercard was just thrown together. Seriously, they could have easily built some feuds for the PPV. They LITERALLY had buildup to ONE match on the card. TNA has an hour a week, and they manage to do at least some buildup for the whole ppv card. ECW was building Sandman vs Striker, and then they just stopped. Same with Balls and Thorn (haha, that would be an awesome name for a tag team).

They just booked meaningless squash matches with new talent beating jobbers, and built up for the chamber match for like 5 months. How hard would it have been for Dreamer to run in on the last ECW before the PPV and attack Daivari after his match? It wouldn't take anything away from that hour.

That said, I didn't watch the PPV, so I can't tell you. But from watching ECW, it seems that nobody cares about the wrestlers because most of them are booked as jobbers and develop no personality or feuds.
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Old 12-08-2006, 06:24 AM   #70
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come to think of it, do you think Paul Heyman wanted to have no announced card, like the old days....and Vince reluctantly gave him the benefit of the doubt instead of forcing him to build matches. And then went nuts when it failed miserably?
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:26 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeritron5000
come to think of it, do you think Paul Heyman wanted to have no announced card, like the old days....and Vince reluctantly gave him the benefit of the doubt instead of forcing him to build matches. And then went nuts when it failed miserably?
Sounds too conspirist to me. To believe it, we'd have to ignore that Vince so heavily made ECW into a WWE product, including both wrestlers AND style, but then decided to listen to Heyman on this element.
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