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Old 03-20-2007, 08:45 PM   #41
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Yeah, they are trying to make the STFU appear to be devestating, but it's all fun and games until Michaels is in it 2 weeks from now, and he doesn't tap. He fights and claws his way to the ropes, all the while Benoit tapped in 12 seconds, if that.

I expected Cena to get the win, but not by submission. That's just lame. It's obvious to everyone that Cena can't wrestle his way out of a paper bag, so why build him as something that he is not?
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Old 03-20-2007, 08:50 PM   #42
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I don't mind the STFU in Cena's offense, but it should be secondary to the F-U.
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Old 03-20-2007, 09:11 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hb2k
Look. Chris Benoit isn't selling WrestleMania, John Cena is. So you can either book the way TNA would, do a bunch of run-ins, end it in a lame DQ because "you have to protect Benoit", and not get anybody over and render it meaningless, or can make the guy responsible for selling the show look like a million dollars on Raw and actually get somebody over, when the truth is nobody will remember the match in three months anyway. It's common sense, it's the right thing to do, get over it. Benoit's bulletproof - he's going to rebound just fine if they need him to.
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:25 PM   #44
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Can we all just be honest and admit that we're only pissed because most of us like Chris Benoit and don't like John Cena?
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:27 PM   #45
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That's what I was saying, but apparently I'm on the level of Reymon14 for defending booking despite personal markdom and preference of wrestlers.
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:52 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhere Man
Can we all just be honest and admit that we're only pissed because most of us like Chris Benoit and don't like John Cena?
Ill go with that.
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Old 03-21-2007, 12:48 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold HamNegger
The only thing I didn't like, was Super-Cena lasting an insanely long time in the Sharpshooter,
Wow, 20 seconds!
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Old 03-21-2007, 06:39 AM   #48
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I stand my ground: Disgusted.
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:01 AM   #49
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Cena beats Benoit: Fine.
Cena beating a submission machine with a weak-ass submission move to make Cena look like something that a large chunk of fans know he is not: Anything but fine.
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:08 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhere Man
Can we all just be honest and admit that we're only pissed because most of us like Chris Benoit and don't like John Cena?
I don't even mind Cena that much though. What I'm angry about is building up any star in a way that is just insulting to another. There was absolutely no reason to have Benoit tap in a normal Raw match when a regular pinfall victory would have been just fine. Hell, if it had happened in a PPV main event after a long and grueling match that left both guys beat to hell, then it would have been fine. Disappointing, certainly, but not an outrage.
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:09 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-A-G
Wow, 20 seconds!
That's actually a pretty long time for a submission finisher to be on a wrestler without them eventually putting it over by tapping.
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:13 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Dragon
Yeah, they are trying to make the STFU appear to be devestating, but it's all fun and games until Michaels is in it 2 weeks from now, and he doesn't tap. He fights and claws his way to the ropes, all the while Benoit tapped in 12 seconds, if that.

I expected Cena to get the win, but not by submission. That's just lame. It's obvious to everyone that Cena can't wrestle his way out of a paper bag, so why build him as something that he is not?
It's also kind of frustrating that Jim Ross himself says stuff like "John Cena may not be the best mat-technician in the world, but he knows how to fight." They can't even figure out whether they want him as counterpoint to professional wrestling, or it's Second Coming.

And Benoit being liked better than John Cena isn't the issue here. It's the method of the WWE took with completely taking casual fan interest away by Benoit losing the way he did. If he lost, fine, it's a loss. The way he lost makes it look like Benoit can't out wrestle Cena, which is fine with me, because in my fantasies the two could end up working a program later, and Benoit is getting more and more political it seems; I can understand why people would be upset, though.
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:18 AM   #53
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It also gives marks a twisted view of things.

"Benoit is a supreme technical wrestler."
"Oh yeah? Then how come Cena made him tap out?"

Some permutation of that exchange will happen, if it hasn't already.
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:22 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhere Man
Can we all just be honest and admit that we're only pissed because most of us like Chris Benoit and don't like John Cena?
No, Cena wins with the FU, thats fine.
Cena winning with the STFU = bullshit.

I can't remember the Rock ever winning with his cheap ass version of the Sharpshooter.
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Old 03-21-2007, 11:35 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthTeedious
It also gives marks a twisted view of things.

"Benoit is a supreme technical wrestler."
"Oh yeah? Then how come Cena made him tap out?"

Some permutation of that exchange will happen, if it hasn't already.

who are you calling a mark? You're the one insisting that Chris Benoit's finisher is more powerful and Cena could never kick out of it because he's not a master of submission and a canadian crippler, he's just a chaingang soldier.

Obviously Chris Benoit's a great technician, but the submission manuevers and "level of skill" in kayfabe and such ISN'T REAL. So stop talking about it like Benoit is Roger Clemens and John Cena could never hit his fastball. At the end of the day, its just another submission lock and the booking and creative makes up what "hurts" and what's "more devestating". Since Cena is their golden boy and the champion, guess what, he had a submission maneuver thats "devestating" and makes the US champion tap, who also happens to have "submission skills", thus making Cena look stronger.
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Old 03-21-2007, 11:39 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron
who are you calling a mark? You're the one insisting that Chris Benoit's finisher is more powerful and Cena could never kick out of it because he's not a master of submission and a canadian crippler, he's just a chaingang soldier.

Obviously Chris Benoit's a great technician, but the submission manuevers and "level of skill" in kayfabe and such ISN'T REAL. So stop talking about it like Benoit is Roger Clemens and John Cena could never hit his fastball. At the end of the day, its just another submission lock and the booking and creative makes up what "hurts" and what's "more devestating". Since Cena is their golden boy and the champion, guess what, he had a submission maneuver thats "devestating" and makes the US champion tap, who also happens to have "submission skills", thus making Cena look stronger.
As much as it pains me to say it, can't argue with that.
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Old 03-21-2007, 11:40 AM   #57
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and don't even say that I'm a Cena mark and defending him because you all know damn well that I don't and that I obviously didn't "like" the outcome, from a mark standpoint. And that I prefer Benoit by a mile. Just realize that it's not a big deal, it's a booking decision and the right one.
Not to mention more marks wanted what happened to take place, than there are ones bitching about it. So thats why this happens.
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Old 03-21-2007, 11:59 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addy2hotty
I can't remember the Rock ever winning with his cheap ass version of the Sharpshooter.
I'm not completely sure, but I'm almost certain Rock has made Benoit tap with the sharpshooter. Back in 2000, when they had a couple of PPV main events, Rock was using that move heavily. I think he even made Angle tap too, along with a string of other challengers.
The difference is it was The Rock and we liked him, so there was no outcry, because even though Rock is no technical master either, he was a mark favorite and entertaining as hell. So since we don't like Cena, we begin to fault him and the creative for things they've been doing along with wrestlers in his role.
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Old 03-21-2007, 12:03 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addy2hotty
No, Cena wins with the FU, thats fine.
Cena winning with the STFU = bullshit.

I can't remember the Rock ever winning with his cheap ass version of the Sharpshooter.
So, with that logic, Sting should've never won with the Scorpion Deathlock simply because Bret did it better.

Honestly, the STFU is being booked as a legit finisher for Cena, even if it doesn't look good. As a finishing maneuver, it's got to actually finish matches. Cena's going into the main event of WWE's biggest show of the year. Benoit isn't. Therefore, it makes sense as a booker to make Cena look like the better man.

Am I happy with the decision? No. Why? Simple: because I like Chris Benoit, and I don't like John Cena. I don't need to dance around it with other excuses.
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Old 03-21-2007, 12:09 PM   #60
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The Rock's cheap ass sharpshooter was booked strongly, even though it didn't look painful and well executed. Why? Because it doesn't matter if its painful or well executed, it matters that its a finisher move that they choose to employ. Not to mention we're the only breed of fans who look at Rock's sharpshooter and Bret's and see a huge difference in how "devestating" it looks.

But we didn't have a problem with them booking Rock to have a new, strong finisher that didn't look that way. This is because we didn't have a problem with The Rock. They pushed The Rock like superman, and they wanted to add a submission manuever that was dominant. They needed to get it over, so he suddenly started using it a lot. He had the People's Elbow and the Rock Bottom, so why did he need to do this? To get him and the move over more.
Cena has the 5 knuckle shuffle and the FU, why does he need the STFU? To get him and new, match end submission over more.
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Old 03-21-2007, 12:53 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhere Man
Can we all just be honest and admit that we're only pissed because most of us like Chris Benoit and don't like John Cena?
And that is the truth right there. Calm down marks.
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Old 03-21-2007, 01:26 PM   #62
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I think the arguement could end at that. The thing that pisses me off is the crippler crossface looks painful and Benoit can make it seem almost 100% real. Cena on the other hand isnt doing the STF right. Or STFU whatever you want to call it. He isnt around the chin its just kinda making a circle around the guys face. How on gods green earth is that going to make anyone tap out, let alone the Rabid Wolverine.
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Old 03-21-2007, 01:30 PM   #63
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dude wow
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Old 03-21-2007, 01:32 PM   #64
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good wow or bad wow?
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Old 03-21-2007, 02:20 PM   #65
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WOW HE TAPPED OUT NO!!!!
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Old 03-21-2007, 02:38 PM   #66
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It's Montreal all over again ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
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Old 03-21-2007, 03:09 PM   #67
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Get the fuck over it people. It'll be a distant memory in 3 weeks anyway.
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Old 03-21-2007, 03:54 PM   #68
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I doubt that. I'm pretty sure this one's gonna be a sticker. Not a source of eternal rage, perhaps, but there will always be "Remember when Benoit tapped to Cena? That was god damn ridiculous."
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Old 03-21-2007, 04:05 PM   #69
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I thought I was the only one who was irked by this.

I don't consider myself to be the usual smart fan....I hate ROH and generally any indy fed out of the big 2. I'm generally not that much of a critical fan but Benoit's loss really pissed me off.

Here's why - okay here's Benoit, one of the best wrestlers out there still performing and busting his ass for the fans. This guy was such a badass in WCW and even in WWE. He goes from World Champion at WM 20 to being stuck in mid-card hell for nearly 2 years with the US Title, rarely if ever cutting a promo, and just being thrown on the card to put on a good match. When I saw him come on Raw, I knew he was going to lose. But I was expecting a nice, long fight. Instead I see a rather weak matchup, and Benoit just giving up to the STFU hold by Cena. It wasnt just the Monday Night matchup, but in general for a long time now it's been making me upset. Ever since his WM 20 peak, his career is going downhill. A damn shame too, like I said..this was the freaking Crippler in WCW and World Champ that people feared. Now he's just "US Champion Benoit...a guy of the past."
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Old 03-21-2007, 04:16 PM   #70
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One thing most of you guys are forgetting is that the crossface looks just as week as the stfu. I wish beniot would quit using the crossface.
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Old 03-21-2007, 04:31 PM   #71
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No, it doesn't.
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Old 03-21-2007, 04:39 PM   #72
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LOL "one of the big two."
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Old 03-21-2007, 05:02 PM   #73
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I don't get it? What's so funny about that??? Care to explain please?

Big 2 national promotions with PPV days in the 90s...WCW and WWE. Today it's WWE and TNA. Granted TNA is small, but it is the 2nd largest promotion in the US on a national scale, has a primetime slot on cable TV, and has PPVs.
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Old 03-21-2007, 05:28 PM   #74
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By that logic if MTV had given WSX PPV's we would have had "the big three."

And by your own posts "The two," "Granted TNA is small," you've contradicted your self. You cant be biug and be small. Yeah, TNA is TV, yeah they have PPV, but they have a long way to go before they anything more than an indy company with a TV deal. Making a profit being their first hurdle.
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Old 03-21-2007, 06:45 PM   #75
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Here's something to consider kids, maybe, just maybe, they thought that putting Cena over Benoit by submission would actually make him look, you know, stronger for Wrestlemania. Yeh, an FU would have been fine, but look how much attention you're paying to the outcome of the match. On another forum there's like 20 pages of discussion on this. Point is, if you're not looking at it from a "OMG, X-FACE IS A SHOOT" retard point of view, then you know that John Cena is a pretty damn big deal and he looked as strong as you can look booking-wise. Everyone that makes any comment about wanting a different outcome, no matter what it is, is saying it because they don't want Cena looking as strong at the expense of Benoit.

Realise that Benoit is going to be fine, his credibility is perfectly fine, and John Cena looked like a million dollars going into a show they are wanting to do a million buys. That's logic folks.
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Old 03-22-2007, 03:23 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron
who are you calling a mark? You're the one insisting that Chris Benoit's finisher is more powerful and Cena could never kick out of it because he's not a master of submission and a canadian crippler, he's just a chaingang soldier.

Obviously Chris Benoit's a great technician, but the submission manuevers and "level of skill" in kayfabe and such ISN'T REAL. So stop talking about it like Benoit is Roger Clemens and John Cena could never hit his fastball. At the end of the day, its just another submission lock and the booking and creative makes up what "hurts" and what's "more devestating". Since Cena is their golden boy and the champion, guess what, he had a submission maneuver thats "devestating" and makes the US champion tap, who also happens to have "submission skills", thus making Cena look stronger.
So what you're saying is because it's a fixed sport we have no right to complain about a tool of a wrestler beating one of the greatest ever with his own style? I'm sorry, but in real life there is a HUGE skill difference between Benoit and Cena, and trying to pretend that there is not isn't only inconsistent (the WWE constantly has us believe Cena isn't a catch-as-catch can wrestler), but damn-near damaging.
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Old 03-22-2007, 03:26 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hb2k
Here's something to consider kids, maybe, just maybe, they thought that putting Cena over Benoit by submission would actually make him look, you know, stronger for Wrestlemania. Yeh, an FU would have been fine, but look how much attention you're paying to the outcome of the match. On another forum there's like 20 pages of discussion on this. Point is, if you're not looking at it from a "OMG, X-FACE IS A SHOOT" retard point of view, then you know that John Cena is a pretty damn big deal and he looked as strong as you can look booking-wise. Everyone that makes any comment about wanting a different outcome, no matter what it is, is saying it because they don't want Cena looking as strong at the expense of Benoit.

Realise that Benoit is going to be fine, his credibility is perfectly fine, and John Cena looked like a million dollars going into a show they are wanting to do a million buys. That's logic folks.
No, logic would have been to make the US Title, Chris Benoit and their program at WrestleMania look somewhat meaningful.

Benoit's status is hurt by this. A mark now sees Chris Benoit as being completely inferior to John Cena. Now they don't even have the "John Cena is a fighter, Benoit is a wrestler" excuse. Cena beating Benoit via submission does nothing for buys, does nothing for Cena (but make us loathe his status even more, and protect him further, which is NOT necessarily a good thing) and it certainly does nothing for Benoit.
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Old 03-22-2007, 07:59 AM   #78
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It wasn't designed to help Benoit, that's the point. Cena is the guy in the position to succeed right now, so it's absolutely necessary to have him look as strong as possible. Yeh, of course WWE could make more people mean more and get the US Title over as a big deal, but you're complaining about something that changed in wrestling years ago. The top three matches are selling this show, and nobody will remember this match after Mania anyway, and all Benoit needs is a heel turn or a strong feud with a top line guy and he's instantly credible because everybody takes him seriously. This didn't hurt Benoit much in the grand scheme. The pop he'll get at Mania won't be changed by this at all.
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Old 03-22-2007, 08:06 AM   #79
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No one has convinced me that giving Cena the submission victory was so much better than if they would've just let him use the gay FU to get a pinfall victory. Cena did not need that match to end by submission. All that does is piss people that think like that off even more, and I know we're not the only ones. This has more potential to turn fans on Cena again than it does to help him, in my opinion.
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Old 03-22-2007, 08:27 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron
who are you calling a mark? You're the one insisting that Chris Benoit's finisher is more powerful and Cena could never kick out of it because he's not a master of submission and a canadian crippler, he's just a chaingang soldier.
All I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense, and that it damages Benoit's credibility. If I'm going to enjoy wrestling I have to be able to watch it as a mark. If things are going to happen that take the nature of the work and slap me in the face with it, I'm not going to be able to do that. It's still real to me, dammit, at least while I'm watching the show. I'm not complaining as a Benoit mark or even a wrestling fan, I'm complaining as a fan of good storytelling, and jobbing Benoit to a weak-ass STF is equivalent to watching a vampire movie in which Dracula gets killed by blunt-force trauma to the head from a lead pipe.


That does not make sense!
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