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Old 08-09-2007, 11:40 AM   #41
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no, there's a difference between being groggy and "out of it" and then you get hit with a closeline, dropkick, etc... If a monster like Kane hits you with a chokeslam, powerslam, etc.. I expect the guy to be out of it for a little. This then byes Kane some time to go to the top rope.

But then there's guys who stand there and who you can tell are getting ready for a move. It's stupid and not logical at all.
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Old 08-09-2007, 12:42 PM   #42
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Both Dave and IC hit what I was saying.

You CAN have a match that's nearly all spots. Some Dragongate matches are a great example. The crowd loves them. However, watching 5 or 6 matches like that in a row.. Hell, watching 2 or 3 matches like that in a row, can be overkill. It's a matter of how much the crowd is into it. If the crowd loves a crazy spot match, and pops like crazy for it, put it on the card. But if you do one match after the match, the crowd will get bored of them, especially when you have to work so hard to top the previous spot.

That's the one thing Dragongate can do amazing well. Build spots. They can make the next spot even better, without making it utterly retarded. Also, I love their silly 8 man holds and suplexs.
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Old 08-09-2007, 01:16 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do?
Also, I love their silly 8 man holds and suplexs.
That is what is ruining wrestling :foc: ...I wish there was an angerier face.
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Old 08-09-2007, 01:19 PM   #44
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LOL @ BDC
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:44 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
That is what is ruining wrestling :foc: ...I wish there was an angerier face.
You probably have no idea what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the DG comedy matches. They aren't meant to be taken seriously. I'm pretty sure when you see an 8 man arm wringer, with the referee besting all the wrestlers, it's not to be taken seriously.

When TNA does an 8 man superplex powerbomb backdrop for a spot, it's retarded.

When guys in Dragongate do their wacky shit, it's meant to be funny.
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:46 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do?
You probably have no idea what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the DG comedy matches. They aren't meant to be taken seriously. I'm pretty sure when you see an 8 man arm wringer, with the referee besting all the wrestlers, it's not to be taken seriously.

When TNA does an 8 man superplex powerbomb backdrop for a spot, it's retarded.

When guys in Dragongate do their wacky shit, it's meant to be funny.
You probably have no idea what I'm talking about then.

Anyhow, I think we can both agree White Zombie rules.
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:53 PM   #47
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Yes, I agree totally. White Zombie does rule.
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Old 08-09-2007, 03:07 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do?
Yes, I agree totally. White Zombie does rule.
Warp Asylum is probably one of the best songs ever written.
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Old 08-09-2007, 03:15 PM   #49
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Sigmund Freud won his first title with a broken freakin' neck.
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Old 08-09-2007, 03:16 PM   #50
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Yes. But really, that whole CD is amazing, and I love the intro to I Am Legend.
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Old 08-09-2007, 03:21 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do?
Yes. But really, that whole CD is amazing, and I love the intro to I Am Legend.
Yes. And Make/Let them Die Slowly kinda sucks.
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Old 08-09-2007, 03:32 PM   #52
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Soul Crusher isn't that great either from what Ive heard... Their early stuff sounds really... Meh quality wise.
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Old 08-09-2007, 03:53 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do?
Soul Crusher isn't that great either from what Ive heard... Their early stuff sounds really... Meh quality wise.
I agree totally. Do you agree one of the best things they did was break up after Astrocreep? I mean Rob's stuff post White Zombie sucks in comparison. Also, I hate when people just lump it all together the way people sometime lump Misfits and Danzig together.
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Old 08-09-2007, 04:43 PM   #54
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BRET HART

He would selling an injury for months even on interviews. Just look how he takes on Kevin Nash at SS 95.. even the finish is realistic. Also the first time someone went thru the announcer table (apparently)

He works Kevin Nash's legs , bites him, rake in the eyes..loses all the fist fights.. he ties kevin nash to the fucking ring post and attacks him from different angles.

If you dont havent seen this match then you've missed out on a match that I rate way above WM12 IRONMAN MATCH.. go youtube it
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Old 08-09-2007, 05:42 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
I agree totally. Do you agree one of the best things they did was break up after Astrocreep? I mean Rob's stuff post White Zombie sucks in comparison. Also, I hate when people just lump it all together the way people sometime lump Misfits and Danzig together.
You know, I'm not sure... I totally agree that Rob's stuff post Zombie sucks in comparrison, and to be honest, his last CD was just bad. So in a sense, I think them breaking up preserved White Zombie as a really good bad, who hit their stride and quit before they went down hill.

At the same time though, I wonder if White Zombie could have put a bit of a leash on Rob, keeping the monster and horror movie overtones to a acceptable level, kept it a little heavier, and put out at least one more good cd. That'd really just depend on how much influence the rest of the band had over the music though. Granted we'll never know.. Rob himself though took the horror/movie theme farther than I think White Zombie ever would of, and the quality went down because of it.
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Old 08-09-2007, 06:30 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do?
You probably have no idea what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the DG comedy matches. They aren't meant to be taken seriously. I'm pretty sure when you see an 8 man arm wringer, with the referee besting all the wrestlers, it's not to be taken seriously.

When TNA does an 8 man superplex powerbomb backdrop for a spot, it's retarded.

When guys in Dragongate do their wacky shit, it's meant to be funny.
I'm going to agree with BDC and say that that is one thing that is killing wrestling. Even with "comedy" matches, matches should NEVER so openly and obviously expose the business.

There's "haha" funny and then there's "this shit's obviously fake, even if it's funny" funny. Unfortunately there's a fine line there and a lot of indy wrestlers/promotions walk it and cross it too often.

And there's a HUGE difference between an over the top outside the ring gimmick and a match.
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Old 08-09-2007, 06:38 PM   #57
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But not too late.
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Old 08-09-2007, 06:50 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126
I'm going to agree with BDC and say that that is one thing that is killing wrestling. Even with "comedy" matches, matches should NEVER so openly and obviously expose the business.

There's "haha" funny and then there's "this shit's obviously fake, even if it's funny" funny. Unfortunately there's a fine line there and a lot of indy wrestlers/promotions walk it and cross it too often.

And there's a HUGE difference between an over the top outside the ring gimmick and a match.
I guess I can somewhat agree with that, well the bit about "this shit's obviously fake, even if it's funny" funny. I think it is a bit extreme to be saying that this is killing wrestling, though.

If you think of professional wresting as a sport (and you have to if you are to take it completely seriously), then just think of comedy matches as the mascots getting on the field during half-time and mucking around in a "game" between the two.

Comedy matches should be taken on a different level to other matches. The idea isn't so much about winning and losing, as it is putting on the best show, getting the paycheck, and being the funniest so you hopefully get another booking.

What I wouldn't mind seeing, is a comedy wrestler in a promotion like Dragon Gate (where they actually have an "Open the Owarai Gate Championship," which is a comedy championship) get called out by a serious wrestler for "not taking his sport seriously." The comedy wrestler the trains to become a serious competitor, and begins a program with the serious wrestler. It would help the comedy guy get a proper foot in the business, and it would put where comedy lies in the business into perspective.
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Old 08-09-2007, 07:04 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
Because small flying japs are the future of the business right, come on. I've seen some Dragongate matches, I have Do Fixer vs Blood Gereration in ROH, and it is a fucking awesome match, and I am amazed by watching it, but If I watched it every day, or was subjected to an entire card of that, with no storylines, or storytelling in either angles, or matches then it's going to get boring fast.
It's not like anyone in the WWE is the future of the business, either.

"Small flying Japs" are quite relevant in Japan, and to their wrestling scene. Small guys get treated well over there, as does the business overall. A guy just needs to be good at what he does to get noticed. These guys are doing what they need to do, and doing it well. I don't think they should be faulted for that.

I agree with what you're saying about seeing spotty matches for an entire card maybe getting a bit tedious, but to be honest, seeing any one style of match for an entire card would bore me to shreds. It's the same with any style of wrestling. I just believe each has its place, especially in small doses.

As to your comments on Ring of Honor, I guess we're just on opposite sides of the coin on that one. Personally, I can't understand how anyone could see more psychology in the WWE than ROH. There is a lot more mat work in ROH, the matches feel more like a real sport, and while I appreciate what LC, BDC and, you, IC (that's a lot of end Cs) have said about guys telegraphing spots, very rarely do I see that in ROH. I haven't seen every show, but I do tend to seek out their better matches, and usually I see guys just putting on a high energy match. Spots are rarely telegraphed by a mile. I'm actually more likely to see that in a WWE match, because the style they work isn't used to high spot punctuation, and they are milked for all they're worth.

Some ROH matches are long, some too long for their own good, I don't think 20 minutes for a title match is a bad time, though, especially when guys like Jay Briscoe, Mark Briscoe and Bryan Danielson can get that out of guys in their sleep.

And while I'm on the topic of telegraphed and choreographed spots, I agree with what LC said about them. They do sometimes take the viewer out of the match when the guys just kind of stares at the guy and tries to break his fall. I don't see this as much in ROH as I do the WWE, though. Jeff Hardy's Whisper in the Wind is probably the most prominent offender. I think even these kind of spots have a place in wrestling, though. Yes, I said it. Not a big part, but when there are two guys trying to catch a smaller guy coming off the top, or something, I think it works. Also, if a guy is massive, it can make sense for him to try and catch a smaller opponent, only to get overwhelmed by the momentum behind him.

I think it all comes down to the wrestle, their style, the style of their opponent and even the style of the match they want to work. You have to do what clicks best, and what clicks artistically to produce the best match possible.
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Old 08-09-2007, 10:35 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126
I'm going to agree with BDC and say that that is one thing that is killing wrestling. Even with "comedy" matches, matches should NEVER so openly and obviously expose the business.

There's "haha" funny and then there's "this shit's obviously fake, even if it's funny" funny. Unfortunately there's a fine line there and a lot of indy wrestlers/promotions walk it and cross it too often.

And there's a HUGE difference between an over the top outside the ring gimmick and a match.
Unfortunately, like with movies, some people have a hardon for really stupid shit, and will turn a blind eye.
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Old 08-10-2007, 01:04 AM   #61
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Bret Freakin Hart!
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Old 08-10-2007, 04:18 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitman23
Bret Freakin Hart!
Shut the fuck up. This is about psychology or white zombie. Not just saying bret hart. Hart had decent psychology, but saying Bart Farkin' Fart doesn't prove anything. douche bag.
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Old 08-10-2007, 05:30 PM   #63
Kane Knight
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Howabout Kurt FREAKIN' Angle?
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Old 08-11-2007, 05:22 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
Because small flying japs are the future of the business right, come on. I've seen some Dragongate matches, I have Do Fixer vs Blood Gereration in ROH, and it is a fucking awesome match, and I am amazed by watching it, but If I watched it every day, or was subjected to an entire card of that, with no storylines, or storytelling in either angles, or matches then it's going to get boring fast.
That match was awesome on a totally different level though.
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