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Old 08-30-2007, 03:32 PM   #41
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I think it's a stretch to say it's nothing more than hard hits TOVO. While they do rely on the brutality in the same way ECW did with their hardcore aspect they offer a lot more. Which, again like ECW, incorporates a lot brilliant storytelling in their matches.

I mean yeah the fans are blood thirsty, but not single minded.
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:33 PM   #42
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Huge lack of charecters though.
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:33 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The One
WHOA NOW! Let's not go and say anything like that. MMA right now is miles above and beyond anything anyone in the pro wrestling world is doing. Hell they've got better stories without it being scripted.
Meh.
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:41 PM   #44
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DESTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good god it's nice to see you back here, but more to the topic at hand...

RoH is horrible. I am personally shocked to hear you stick up for it. While Japan can on rare occasion produce a decent match, RoH is basically half chopping and half spots that make TNA look good. Their fans are not fans of what is happening, but rather they are cheering and thirsty for more because it's like nothing WWE puts on. Now, while WWE's storylines are terrible, and their choices in match outcomes is shady at best, the matches themselves still to this day carry a heavy emphasis on the storytelling/psychology aspect, which is something that RoH has never been able to accomplish. The fans aren't what I would call blood thirsty, just trained marks. They are special from other standard marks in that they don't cheer good and boo evil, they cheer what RoH has told them to cheer. It doesn't mean they're any more cultured than your average mark, simply programmed differently.

You made a fine point about ECW. ECW was generally awful. It had hardcore moments, which was not only the primary focus, it was their biggest banner to make people watch them. Again, just a mark trained to pop for anything considered hardcore. The only thing ECW ever did well was not to rush things. They allowed all the time in the world to develop something, a rare quality for that era of wrestling. But that's the biggest problem with most companies outside of WWE, they take this ONE little area that WWE may fall short on, over hype how they are the solution to that, and then market themselves as WWE's alternative when it's really the same thing with a little more of a specific spice (ECW/Hardcore, TNA/High Spots, RoH/Stiff Workers).
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:44 PM   #45
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Amen brotha.
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:44 PM   #46
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That was a largely brilliant post and I love you.
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:45 PM   #47
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I have no rebuttal.
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:46 PM   #48
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lol
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:47 PM   #49
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pwnd
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:48 PM   #50
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That was a largely brilliant post and I love you.
I u 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:57 PM   #51
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BTW, I won't give a fuck about this morishima until he is in WWE, and then I'll make my desision.
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Old 08-31-2007, 07:49 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
So becauce he's stiff and hits hard he's good?
No, it just makes him more believable than a guy running around in shorts feather-tapping folk with his fist.

To your question, I reply: So because he's Japanese/competes in ROH or the independents, it must mean he is shitty? Honestly, when you get to promotions like PWG, ROH, IWA-MS, JAPW, and the non-garbage segments of CZW, independent wrestling offers more psychology than 90% of WWE matches.
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Old 08-31-2007, 08:00 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The One
DESTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good god it's nice to see you back here, but more to the topic at hand...

RoH is horrible. I am personally shocked to hear you stick up for it. While Japan can on rare occasion produce a decent match, RoH is basically half chopping and half spots that make TNA look good. Their fans are not fans of what is happening, but rather they are cheering and thirsty for more because it's like nothing WWE puts on. Now, while WWE's storylines are terrible, and their choices in match outcomes is shady at best, the matches themselves still to this day carry a heavy emphasis on the storytelling/psychology aspect, which is something that RoH has never been able to accomplish. The fans aren't what I would call blood thirsty, just trained marks. They are special from other standard marks in that they don't cheer good and boo evil, they cheer what RoH has told them to cheer. It doesn't mean they're any more cultured than your average mark, simply programmed differently.

You made a fine point about ECW. ECW was generally awful. It had hardcore moments, which was not only the primary focus, it was their biggest banner to make people watch them. Again, just a mark trained to pop for anything considered hardcore. The only thing ECW ever did well was not to rush things. They allowed all the time in the world to develop something, a rare quality for that era of wrestling. But that's the biggest problem with most companies outside of WWE, they take this ONE little area that WWE may fall short on, over hype how they are the solution to that, and then market themselves as WWE's alternative when it's really the same thing with a little more of a specific spice (ECW/Hardcore, TNA/High Spots, RoH/Stiff Workers).
Normally I agree with you, and while you have a valid point, you are being pretty narrow-minded about it. Independent promotions do try and set themselves up as different to the WWE, but when they do that (well, the good independent promotions, anyway) they let the guys construct their own matches, cut their own promos, and work their ass off to do what they were trained to do well. It's not about hard-hitting, it's about their own style of wrestling. It's about taking your potential and using it.

Not every guy in ROH is a Japanese import, and your "all they do is kick" argument if really fucking weak. I see more psychology in a ROH match than an entire week of WWE programming. There is more focus on injuries and body parts, the feuds evolve a lot better, rivalries are based off what they should be based off, and everything flows much better. So there are a few guys who kick in their. Tajiri used to be in the WWE. There isn't only one style present in ROH, and although they do love the Japanese way of doing things, with faster movements, higher impact moves, more focus on the art than the hype (which is all WWE is these days), striking isn't even their biggest priority.
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Old 08-31-2007, 08:19 AM   #54
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I'll just like to say that I've seen a fair bit of work from Morishima and the guy does nothing for me and he gets way too much praise.

I usually agree with Alien about most of the things he says, but I have no idea where you get your idea that he has charisma.
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Old 08-31-2007, 10:15 AM   #55
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I have no choice but to think that Alienoid is a recovering PCP addict.
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Old 08-31-2007, 10:17 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06
No, it just makes him more believable than a guy running around in shorts feather-tapping folk with his fist.

To your question, I reply: So because he's Japanese/competes in ROH or the independents, it must mean he is shitty? Honestly, when you get to promotions like PWG, ROH, IWA-MS, JAPW, and the non-garbage segments of CZW, independent wrestling offers more psychology than 90% of WWE matches.
Are you fucking serious?
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:06 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
Are you fucking serious?
Of course I'm serious. What psychology is there in the WWE?
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:09 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fugitive
I'll just like to say that I've seen a fair bit of work from Morishima and the guy does nothing for me and he gets way too much praise.

I usually agree with Alien about most of the things he says, but I have no idea where you get your idea that he has charisma.
Just to be clear, when I say "charisma" I don't mean personality. I mean a certain aura. In ROH, the guy has been putting on some great title matches recently, with Claudio Castagnoli, Brent Albright and Bryan Danielson. He's been getting a lot more love (people were on the fence about him until recently), and he's just fitting in a lot better.

The guy isn't going to light up a room, but that's not his role. His job is to go out there looking pretty harmless, kill people, and then go back looking like a world beater.
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:26 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06
Of course I'm serious. What psychology is there in the WWE?
WWE might not oozing physcology these days, but ROH and any other indie doesnt even have half of it, and the few in ROH who use physcology, don't do it very well.
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:45 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
WWE might not oozing physcology these days, but ROH and any other indie doesnt even have half of it, and the few in ROH who use physcology, don't do it very well.
I guess it's just an opinion thing. I consider psychology the using of the mind during wrestling matches. The wrestler appears like he is thinking, and is doing things because he is using his mind. Storylines can also implement psychology, by having things happen for a reason, and playing out realistically from said reason.

You will disagree with this, but I think ROH does that so much better than the WWE, which you are right, is definitely not oozing psychology.

Vince McMahon is still looking for an illegitimate son that would be named on the papers he has already been served with. Meanwhile, Jay and Mark Briscoe are looking to get revenge on their opponents for causing a head injury to Mark during one of their matches, and then going after the head as a target, making a professional contest for the Tag Team Championship into a personal one.

I understand that you might have seen some ROH matches where guys strike a lot, or they flip around, but that happens in the WWE, too. Shitty right hands pretty much make up John Cena's moveset. Matches with flips in them have a purpose, however. Some guys need it to get noticed over the immobile shits running things, and others need the momentum of a high flying maneuver to get a bigger man down. Some guys strike a lot because they have martial arts backgrounds, and because it gets the fans into their matches. The thinking in most WWE matches isn't the wrestlers, it belongs to the road agents, some of whom are great wrestlers, but none of them are the one in question, so it doesn't feel organic, and this mechanical style lacks mind. John Cena punches because it is what Vince wants him to do, because he believes it sells merchandise. Using a WWE example done right to provide counterbalance, Elijah Burke punches because he has a former amateur boxing background.

ROH is just more organic with its style, because the guys working in the match are actually doing what they are doing, thus there must be a reason for it. That's not a blind defence of ROH, just my opinion that guys are going to find it a lot harder to work a style which fits them (part of what psychology is) if they have to wrestler another man's match. I admire guys who can do the WWE style well, but I do not admire the WWE style. There is no ROH style. Guys do what works for them, and it's a whole lot more organic. That is psychology, to me.
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Old 08-31-2007, 12:08 PM   #61
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You are no more than a mark, you may know a bit more than your average mark, but a mark none the less. And not just a mark, but a ROH "mark".

The fact is your average wrestlers in WWE arent great with physcology, but than agian neither are any of the indie guys. So because someone appears to be thinking, that is physcolgy? Anyone can look like they are thinking during the match and in between moves. Its the moves you do, how you do them and why you are doing them.

The fact is Cena punches because he's a brawler, and he isn't fancy. Where as in ROH a brawler would start wrestling and using actaul wrestling moves, and while there is nothing at all wrong that, there is when it doesn't fit your character.

As for ROH being more organic with its styles, while you may think that is true, in reality they are just using more moves, and any move. So because they do moves that any wrestler in WWE could do if they wanted, doesnt give them more physcology, or even make the matches better, every wrestler can do every move, to a certian extant, sure I may be impressed the first few times I see something amazing, but after its been done to death, with no meaning, it becomes just another move.

Also, Vince illegitimate love child, way more entertaining than a couple skinny rednecks with a combined weight of 300 pounds.
Last edited by IC Champion; 08-31-2007 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 08-31-2007, 12:39 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06
Just to be clear, when I say "charisma" I don't mean personality. I mean a certain aura. In ROH, the guy has been putting on some great title matches recently, with Claudio Castagnoli, Brent Albright and Bryan Danielson. He's been getting a lot more love (people were on the fence about him until recently), and he's just fitting in a lot better.

The guy isn't going to light up a room, but that's not his role. His job is to go out there looking pretty harmless, kill people, and then go back looking like a world beater.
And I don't feel like that aura with him, he's just some bulky Jap to me that exudes nothing. As for great matches, I haven't seen an entertaining ROH title match since Final Battle 2006. I don't feel any fire during his matches, I don't have any moments during his matches where the ref's counting a near pin and I sit up in my seat a little in anticipation, nothing.

The sooner the belt's off him, the sooner I can get back to enjoying ROH's title matches.
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Old 08-31-2007, 12:44 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fugitive
And I don't feel like that aura with him, he's just some bulky Jap to me that exudes nothing. As for great matches, I haven't seen an entertaining ROH title match since Final Battle 2006. I don't feel any fire during his matches, I don't have any moments during his matches where the ref's counting a near pin and I sit up in my seat a little in anticipation, nothing.

The sooner the belt's off him, the sooner I can get back to enjoying ROH's title matches.
When this NYC shows gets released, check out his match with Dragon. The crowd was so into this and there were a few times where the crowd though Dragon would take it. Also that whole show sans Davey Richards/pac was awesome.
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Old 08-31-2007, 01:05 PM   #64
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Morishima is amazing live, he is pretty electric. His moves are simple but he does them with a lot of force and its great. I am not a ROH mark by any means but ROH is deffinatly the number 2 promotion in the country, and sometimes a lot better than WWE.

BTW if you are slamming the Briscoes Instant Classic then I don't belive you have ever seen a single match of theirs. They are without a doubt the best tag team around today, and probably since 2000.

The major ROH star I dislike is Danielson, I just don't really dig him at all. He is fun live though cause everyone else is nuts for him.
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Old 08-31-2007, 01:40 PM   #65
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Well Jordumb X, you have out done yourself this time.

First, how in the fuck is ROH in the number two promotion in the U.S.? Does it draw bigger house' than TNA when they do PPV's on the raod? Do their PPV buy rate exceed TNA's? Do they do better in television in terms of ratings? No, No and No. ROH does not draw more than TNA, their buyrates wont be better, and they dont even have a deal on cable for a weekly show. I highly doubt they sell more merchandise than TNA does, so how the fuck are they the #2 wrestling promotion? Are you seriously that fucking stupid that it becomes a sin? ROH is neither better than TNA nor WWE.

Also, The Briscoes are ROH's answer to spot monkeys.
Last edited by IC Champion; 08-31-2007 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:13 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
Does it draw bigger house' than TNA and the Impact Zone?
Doesn't TNA give tickets at the impact zone away for free though?
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:26 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecc
Doesn't TNA give tickets at the impact zone away for free though?
I'm pretty sure you have to buy them.
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:30 PM   #68
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Quote:
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I'm pretty sure you have to buy them.
Free admission to the impact zone
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:30 PM   #69
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And even in they are free, it still wouldnt matter.
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:30 PM   #70
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Thats why they have that fanfest during big PPVs, so they can get a bit of revenue
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:33 PM   #71
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Also, hasn't TNA lost a rediculous amount of money over the past few years?
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:48 PM   #72
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Also, hasn't TNA lost a rediculous amount of money over the past few years?
Pretty sure they've never turned a profit in their existance.
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:49 PM   #73
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TNA is making money now, and even have a sponser for the next PPV.
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:55 PM   #74
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The idea of WWE matches carrying a show better than ROH matches makes me fucking laugh. I can't think of ten WWE matches that actually ENTERTAINED me in the past year.

But hey, if you want to blindly bash ROH, feel free, I really don't care anymore. You go ahead and keep sucking down the shit WWE and TNA feeds you week in and week out. At least when I go to or watch an ROH show, I don't have to rant, rave, and bitch about the awful decisions they make, the crappy matches they have, or try to pick out the one or two bright spots of a show. But hey, if you'd rather have a show to criticize than a show to enjoy, that's your decision.

But do me two favors.

1. Tell me just how much ROH you've seen. What shows, what matches, from when, etc.

2. Please explain to me, and give me examples, of good story telling and psychology in the WWE. I want to know, really.
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:56 PM   #75
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Oh, and I'm pretty sure ROH has made more money than TNA. So while ROh may not be the 2nd most recognized in America, they're probably the 2nd best wrestling business in America right now.
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:58 PM   #76
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IN all honesty, I'm pretty sure The One can't back up his claim at all, and is just spouting shit for the sake of spouting shit. IC has some knowledge to back up his opinion though, despite the fact that his opinion is twisted as all fuck all.
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:59 PM   #77
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The thing is I don't blindly bash ROH, I used to watch it on a daily basis and followed it up until about Feb, and even then I only did because I was a Homicide mark. After he lost, I was already bored long before that and stopped caring. Besides, the guys I liked are all in TNA now.
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Old 08-31-2007, 03:05 PM   #78
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For the record, actual in ring psycholoy, exlcuding a few people, is fubar in ROH. I love the Briscoes, but for the most part, they have no psychology. The only time they really showed great psychology was when Mark just came back from his concussion. For the most part, you won't see methodical psychology in ROH's undercard.

However, there are also people on the ROH roster who are great as far as in ring psychology. You're usual ROH card is going to have at least one brawl, and at least 2 really spotty matches. There's also at least one or two really good match, that while they still have spots in them, aren't blatant spotfests.

So back to the point, ROH does lack in psychology. They don't lack any more than WWE or TNA does. The difference for me between the three though, is that 95% of the time, I'm entertained by an entire ROH show, where WWE/TNA entertain me 10% of the time at best.
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Old 08-31-2007, 03:09 PM   #79
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You know what, I think I made a mistake and grouped IC in with the One's post. IC hasn't actually said anything in this thread that's insanely off or unsupported. I don't agree with him on the extent that he bashed ROH for their wrestlers and their ability, but to each their own.

I will agree that some guys in ROH need to not do every move under the sun. For example, every guy shouldn't be doing a fricking DVD (Although I do love Mark's gorilla press into a DVD)
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Old 08-31-2007, 04:10 PM   #80
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IC you are the retard. Did I say ROH makes more money than TNA? No I said they were the number 2 promotion in the country, why? Because TNA sucks and ROH is 100 times better. How can a promotion hire Kurt Angle and in a year only have 1 good match from him?

ROH Is the 2nd best because the are nowhere near WWE's level. They are on the same level as TNA without a doubt as far as fan base goes and they could be making more money, I wouldn't doubt it. Everything about ROH blows TNA out of the water, thus making them the 2nd best in the country next to WWE.

You call me stupid? You are the one sitting on Thursday's ingesting the most insulting wrestling product on TV since I dunno, Legends of Wrestling! Go ahead, say what you want about ROH you really don't matter nor does your opinion. It's clear to me that you have no life and have decided to argue with everything I post, so go ahead and look like a fool. Be with your group of people on here who worship Nash and hate good wrestling.
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