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Old 04-06-2008, 01:06 AM   #41
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How about this? I don't even like or watch soccer but it's the best analogy I could think of. Most male players in the World Cup or MLS or European league or whatever there is would probably school Mia Hamm or outperform her. But she's prob considered one of the greatest soccer players and biggest stars/legends/favorites of all time. Moreso than a lot of the men who would school her.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:06 AM   #42
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Except that any man can go for any title, save perhaps the cruiser -- which is gone -- just because he's a man. Threre is a clear division therein, which allows men to show a broader scale of themselves. Cruiser go for heavyweight titles, giants go for US titles, and any combination imaginable can go for tag. But chicks only get the chick title. And, with the exception of "girly fights", ie. lumberjills and lingerie matches -- which is actually sexist -- they can't really show us what they've got. Saying "they're wrestlers, too" is an accurate claim; saying they have equality in career comparisson is way off.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:08 AM   #43
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What are you talking about with titles? Non issue. That's a whole other thing. Chyna won a second tier title, Matt Hardy never has. Doesn't stop him from being more of a favorite round these parts

Khalis been a world champ and Piper and Hennig never have. The fuck do titles got to do with anything?
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:09 AM   #44
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Women can and have gone for and won male titles. they just don't make a habit of it.

and I think you're judging female wrestling as if the WWE image of female wrestling is the only one that exist which is really depressing.

The title logic is a bit pointless cause I'm not a mark but by that logic people who only work for weight class titles shouldn't be in this contest.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:09 AM   #45
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Chyna is a man.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:10 AM   #46
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1. Shawn Micheals
2. Mr. Perfect
3. Big Show
4. Kurt Angle
5. Eddie Guerrero
6. Dean Malenko
7. AJ Styles
8. Takeshi Morishima
9. Undertaker
10. Sting
11. Raven
12. HHH
13. Kevin Nash
14. Diamond Dallas Page
15. KENTA
16. Nigel McGuiness
17. Harley Race
18. MVP
19. Hulk Hogan
20. Ric Flair
21. Alex Shelly
22. Brian Pillman
23. Jeff Hardy
24. Chris Jericho
25. Ricky Steamboat
26. Bryan Danielson
27. Rob Van Dam
28. The Rock
29. Randy Savage
30. Christian Cage
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:10 AM   #47
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Chyna is a man.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:11 AM   #48
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Look, I'm not trying to play the villain here. I just just think it's silly to try to compare competitors from two completely different areas.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:11 AM   #49
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Actually don't know if they won world titles in AWA, I don't think so. Either way you catch my drift
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:14 AM   #50
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Quote:
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Look, I'm not trying to play the villain here. I just just think it's silly to try to compare competitors from two completely different areas.
They're not from different areas fully. They're both performers. "Favorite wrestler". Trish is a better wrestler than Khali. Fuck what titles have to do with anything. There are boundaries and different criteria, but on the broader scale of greatest performers and how good they are at their job/over with fans, you are dead wrong my friend.
Nobody denied that there was differences. You need to see the broader picture
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:20 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afterlife View Post
Look, I'm not trying to play the villain here. I just just think it's silly to try to compare competitors from two completely different areas.
Yeah they are from different areas, but the thing about wrestling is there are A LOT of different areas. if you watch Megumi Kudo vs Mother-in-law Toyoda and say they aren't every bit as good as the men in every way then I'll be shocked. Women can go in the exact same way the men do, unfortunately the WWE has decided thats a myth and the WWE follows suit in this logic. But there have been some female wrestlers that are just leagues above a lot of men. But thats the beauty of wrestling. It's not about actual physical superiority. Saying the women can be as good as the men is the same as saying women cant be as good stunt men or actors. They can. and some are.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:20 AM   #52
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Besides this is about who you like more, not who is technically supirior.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:20 AM   #53
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I'm not talking about who wins titles. I'm saying the men -- at least in the WWE -- have an incredibly wider range in which to perform. That means they have more opportunity and more variety in their ability to win the crowd. THat also means they'll have a more storied history and a more developed character/persona with which to relate vto the crowds.

I understand the concept of favoritism, I just don't think female wreatlers have the same opportunities that males do in obtaining that popularity. In that aspect, I think it's unfair to compare them.

However, I've been wrong on a plethera of topics and occassions, so I don't expect to be surprised if everyone concurs against me.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:23 AM   #54
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Which is why Kevin Nash has more votes than Lesnar or such. Why can't Trish have more votes than a man? By nature of the thread title, the votes can't lie
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:23 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afterlife View Post
I'm not talking about who wins titles. I'm saying the men -- at least in the WWE -- have an incredibly wider range in which to perform. That means they have more opportunity and more variety in their ability to win the crowd. THat also means they'll have a more storied history and a more developed character/persona with which to relate vto the crowds.

I understand the concept of favoritism, I just don't think female wreatlers have the same opportunities that males do in obtaining that popularity. In that aspect, I think it's unfair to compare them.

However, I've been wrong on a plethera of topics and occassions, so I don't expect to be surprised if everyone concurs against me.
I can agree with that. The women in the WWE don't get their fair chance to shine to the level of the men. But to me thats a testiment to how awesome the women who made this must be. Given half the opportunity and still they beat out a load of male competitors to get in this compitition.

It's pretty impressive.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:24 AM   #56
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Except for Kong who is actually pushed like a wrestler instead of a Diva.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:26 AM   #57
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Kong is also a man.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:26 AM   #58
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good little debate here btw. I can't rep either of you right now but know that I want to.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:27 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afterlife View Post
I'm not talking about who wins titles. I'm saying the men -- at least in the WWE -- have an incredibly wider range in which to perform. That means they have more opportunity and more variety in their ability to win the crowd. THat also means they'll have a more storied history and a more developed character/persona with which to relate vto the crowds.

I understand the concept of favoritism, I just don't think female wreatlers have the same opportunities that males do in obtaining that popularity. In that aspect, I think it's unfair to compare them.

However, I've been wrong on a plethera of topics and occassions, so I don't expect to be surprised if everyone concurs against me.
Matches are matches and the ring is a ring. Time and freedom given and compettitors is what matters, and match type. The title at stake means very little. Rock and HHH matches aren't in some different artform depending on what title they are for.
If Vince gives HHH and Jericho 20 minutes in the main event for the world title it's not going to be a different match than if they're given 20 minutes in the main event for the IC title. Only in storyline.

If Big Show faced Rey for the cruiserweight title it wouldn't be some different area of performance than if it were for the US title
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:28 AM   #60
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Jerry has a valid point
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:29 AM   #61
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What does that have to do with what you quoted me saying?
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:29 AM   #62
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1. Shawn Micheals
2. Mr. Perfect
3. Big Show
4. Kurt Angle
5. Eddie Guerrero
6. Lance Storm
7. AJ Styles
8. Chris Benoit
9. Undertaker
10. Sting
11. Raven
12. HHH
13. Kevin Nash
14. Diamond Dallas Page
15. KENTA
16. Nigel McGuiness
17. Mic Foley
18. MVP
19. Taz
20. Rey Mysterio
21. Alex Shelly
22. Booker T
23. Edge
24. Chris Jericho
25. Ricky Steamboat
26. Owen Hart
27. Rob Van Dam
28. The Rock
29. Randy Savage
30. Christian Cage
31. CM Punk
32. Stone Cold Steve Austin
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:29 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
Matches are matches and the ring is a ring. Time and freedom given and compettitors is what matters, and match type. The title at stake means very little. Rock and HHH matches aren't in some different artform depending on what title they are for.
If Vince gives HHH and Jericho 20 minutes in the main event for the world title it's not going to be a different match than if they're given 20 minutes in the main event for the IC title. Only in storyline.

If Big Show faced Rey for the cruiserweight title it wouldn't be some different area of performance than if it were for the US title
But that's what I said!
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:30 AM   #64
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What does that have to do with what you quoted me saying?
This was directed at what?
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:31 AM   #65
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You say they have a wider variety to perform. You act like wrestling for different titles suddenly makes it a different activity or something.

I suppose you could say it about the hardcore title, but what else? It's not like they get booked in a program for a different title and suddenly it's like, "oh now I can try this"
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:31 AM   #66
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The thing I just quoted him on.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:33 AM   #67
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You say they have a wider variety to perform. You act like wrestling for different titles suddenly makes it a different activity or something.

I suppose you could say it about the hardcore title, but what else? It's not like they get booked in a program for a different title and suddenly it's like, "oh now I can try this"
Dude! I said the titles don't matter! But having 4 damn titles as opposed to one gives more guys more action. I also mentioned that there are a variety of match forms that the chicks aren't allowed to do.

Different titles lead to different matches, with different opponents and different stipulations. That is what I'm talking about. Not the "meaning" behind the belt.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:34 AM   #68
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Where the hell is Piper?

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Old 04-06-2008, 01:36 AM   #69
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I have to state that there are companies that have several belts for girls. From mid-card belts to cruiser belts to tag belts. There are places where the women have the opportunity to shine and be just as impactful as the men. I think your acting like the WWE is the only wrestling in existance.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:37 AM   #70
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That's because theres more men. That doesn't mean the women are worse performers or not comparible in the broader spectrum of talent.

It gives guys more action, but not more levels on which to perform.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:39 AM   #71
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Say theres 4 mens titles on the show and 40 men. And 1 womens belt and 10 women. What's the difference?

The men aren't trying their hand at 4 different sports
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:41 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
I have to state that there are companies that have several belts for girls. From mid-card belts to cruiser belts to tag belts. There are places where the women have the opportunity to shine and be just as impactful as the men. I think your acting like the WWE is the only wrestling in existance.
I'm not acting like it, it's what I'm talking about. That's why I've been saying "in the WWE", etc. THat's the mainstream medium we have to work with here, so that's what I'm focussing on.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:41 AM   #73
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I use the word sport loosely. But I mean it like, it's not like the world title is basketball and now the men can prove their athleticism by going for the IC title which is baseball. It's all the same stuff, wrestling bell to bell.

I'll give you that the womens belt isn't given the time of a men's belt, but that isn't their fault
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:44 AM   #74
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But Trish is still better at her job and more of a favorite than men who have won multiple titles in different divisions
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:45 AM   #75
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I'm not acting like it, it's what I'm talking about. That's why I've been saying "in the WWE", etc. THat's the mainstream medium we have to work with here, so that's what I'm focussing on.
So you admit you have this problem because you aren't "cultured" enough in the world of pro-wrestling?
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:47 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
That's because theres more men. That doesn't mean the women are worse performers or not comparible in the broader spectrum of talent.

It gives guys more action, but not more levels on which to perform.
I need you to place really close attention to this.

Please.

I have not said anything about the female wrestlers being of inferior quality.

I'm saying the men have more advantage in a Favorites Contest, because they are the ones used on tv in a serious, in-depth manner. The girls are eye candy, and sometimes they put on a watchable match.

I'm not talking about the universe of pro wrestling, I'm talking about the WWE. Because the majority of that list Destor put up is WWE and the only two girls thereupon are also WWE.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:49 AM   #77
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Women can apply their art in bra and panties matches and mud wrestling, are male wrestlers lesser because they haven't worked in these match types?

I'm just fuckin around, but it's not like women can't have tag matches, cage matches, hardocre matches. They have.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:53 AM   #78
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:55 AM   #79
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Unfortunately men have had lingerie and bra and panties matches as well.

Ftr, this is a case were both parties are right.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:56 AM   #80
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Okay, world of WWE only. Still. Trish and Mickie have put on matches and worked on a level that could make them favorites. They were named and voted on in here. This is a democratic contest for favorite, which makes the voting infallible.

Trish and Mickie had a fued and match far superior and well done than most of the male ones.

I also didn't know we were arguing who had more of an advantage, but rather thought we were arguing whether or not they should be involved in the contest or judged as performers in the same broad sense as the men, which is how much of a favorite and how good are they at their job.
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