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Old 09-09-2008, 09:10 PM   #41
Kane Knight
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There has been a "defense" clause on the books for years. It's been mentioned several times in the past couple of years, though this is WWE, and they ignore the fuck out of things all the time.
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:18 PM   #42
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I've been checking around, and it looks like they have mentioned 30-day, 60-day and 90-day rules. Still Punk had a few days to recover.
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:29 PM   #43
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I DEFINITELY remember the 30-day clause for HBK back in the day for the IC belt.
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:37 PM   #44
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Jericho being beaten half to death and then winning a world title 90 minutes later makes zero sense. Cry all you want about people having an opinion on it but it doesn't change the fact that it was poor booking.
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:54 PM   #45
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I dont know why people are bitching about "poor" booking all of a sudden.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:02 PM   #46
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Just because it involved a positive for Jericho doesn't make it acceptable.

And Rob is right-on.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:19 PM   #47
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Like you never pout and bitch about anyone on the internet, do you?

You don't actually post your spazz outs, you take it to the rep sheet.
LOL. Only darkpower would take something so hard.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:31 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 View Post
Just because it involved a positive for Jericho doesn't make it acceptable.

And Rob is right-on.
Wrestling has been booked poorly for years now, I don't see how this was any worse than whats been booked in the last few months.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:37 PM   #49
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Cause this is just piss poor booking, while everything else has been mildly crappy.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:38 PM   #50
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Yes, wrestling has been booked poorly for years. It's been unacceptable. Chris Jericho (and Punk) was booked poorly at Unforgiven. It was unacceptable.

I don't see your point unless it's that Jericho's title win is just more shit in a bigger sea of shit.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:43 PM   #51
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I don't get why everyone was so stoked for Punk to win it, and now everyone is so stoked for him to lose it. Since when does taking the belt off a guy make him more credible? All I've heard is "But he's going to feud with Orton when he gets back!" He could have done that anyway as champion.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:46 PM   #52
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Plus there's the fact that Punk is essentially being fed to Orton for Orton's main event feud. If Punk goes over in the feud I'd be shocked, short of Orton doing something retarded, drug or behavior-wise.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:12 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by thedamndest View Post
I don't get why everyone was so stoked for Punk to win it, and now everyone is so stoked for him to lose it. Since when does taking the belt off a guy make him more credible? All I've heard is "But he's going to feud with Orton when he gets back!" He could have done that anyway as champion.
This is the same IWC who was stoked for Punk to win it, then came up with ridiculous conspiracy theories about Vince holding him down (Despite numerous reports that Vince LOVES Punk and the fact that he's been their PR darling through the drug shit). Shock?
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:14 PM   #54
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I DEFINITELY remember the 30-day clause for HBK back in the day for the IC belt.
I never said there has NEVER been a numbered day rule for titles, the WWE has just seemingly done away with them. 30 days is the most recent one, but Michelle McCool violated that after winning the Divas Championship. The time restraints on defences have been ignored, and simply have ceased to exist in kayfabe.

They are a device of convenience. It is a scripted show, and the WWE will only bring days into it when it suits them. It didn't suit them when Dean Malenko was Light Heavyweight Champion back in 2001, and it doesn't suit them now.

Besides, CM Punk wasn't even stripped of the title. The RAW main event for the World Heavyweight Title went on without him. As for why people wanted to see the World Heavyweight Title put on Punk, and are now happy to see it taken off him, there are a number of reasons:

1) Those people are looking at the full picture. They see CM Punk being protected in the way he lost the title, they seem him looking great against Orton and they seem him winning his second World Heavyweight Title sometime next year, and it being done in an epic way that many bitched his first way wasn't (although with Money in the Bank, it wasn't meant to be an epic win).

2) The Chris Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels program, which has been the best part of the WWE for months, is now the central program of the flagship show. This is where attention deserves to be focused, and Jericho's done such a great job making over his heel character that he truly does deserve another run with the big gold belt.

3) The WWE are just unable to book CM Punk's reign correctly at this time. They have given him too many fluke wins, and they've done a good job at putting too many question marks next to his name. They could try an re-focus it against Orton, while Jericho flounders around doing nothing, and things go on as expected, but even if Punk ended up walking out of the Unforgiven as WWE Champion, the nature of the Scramble Match presented it as a chance win. The WWE decided to be bold, end the reign of Punk without a pinfall or submission against him name (hell, without a loss even to his name), and put him in a feud with Randy Orton, which will be far more compelling without the title. Now they can resume the reign at a later date, when Punk is more established, and comfortable in the main event scene. It's better to end the reign with a question mark beside it, and a note saying that Punk was cheated out of his belt, rather than ending it with a full-stop saying Punk was a Rey Mysterio-like champion.
Last edited by Mr. Nerfect; 09-09-2008 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:17 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
This is the same IWC who was stoked for Punk to win it, then came up with ridiculous conspiracy theories about Vince holding him down (Despite numerous reports that Vince LOVES Punk and the fact that he's been their PR darling through the drug shit). Shock?
That's very exaggerated. Reports did come out that Punk had heat on him, and that guys like Triple H and Arn Anderson loved making fun of Punk. I didn't personal buy into them, and instead chose to look at Vince liking (I'd never use the word "love") Punk due to Vince mentioning Punk by name as a future star for the company, in the same interview where Vince called Randy Orton "Bob Orton's son."

I don't recall Punk ever being a PR darling of the WWE, either. That's always been John Cena. People assumed that Punk could get a push because of the drug shit, and it turns out he did, but I don't ever recall the WWE saying "Look at our drug free guy!"
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:18 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
Thank you AL.

Also Noid, shut up, you are dumb and do not get it.
Anytime.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:19 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 View Post
Plus there's the fact that Punk is essentially being fed to Orton for Orton's main event feud. If Punk goes over in the feud I'd be shocked, short of Orton doing something retarded, drug or behavior-wise.
Wait and see what happens, no? Sure, Orton could win this feud, but I personally think it is going to be used to help Punk out, as well. If the idea was to feed Punk to someone, he'd have done the clean job for the title.

Also, you do realise you just said you can't see CM Punk winning "short of Orton doing something retarded, drug or behavior-wise"? We are talking about Orton here -- why can't you see Punk winning this feud?
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:22 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Jericho being beaten half to death and then winning a world title 90 minutes later makes zero sense. Cry all you want about people having an opinion on it but it doesn't change the fact that it was poor booking.
Did you see the PPV, Rob? If so, then you'd have picked up that Jericho didn't get any offense in the main event. He basically took a spear from Batista, and looked too hurt to be a threat.

You'd have also picked up that Jericho entered the match as a rebound from his embarrassing loss to HBK earlier. It was Jericho posing the question to HBK "Do you really think you've won the war?"

Jericho was in there for five minutes, and was far from the shining star offense-wise in the match. Jericho's presence made perfect sense for the mere fact he could convince Mike Adamle to let him into the match (he has a recent fall over CM Punk while he was World Heavyweight Champion), and that he was only in there five minutes and played it smart. Does it somewhat undermine the beat-down Shawn Michaels put on Jericho earlier? Yes, but that is the point of it. It was Jericho taking a kick to the teeth and then gritting them, realising they are all there, and taunting Shawn Michaels by telling him it didn't hurt.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:27 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
Thank you AL.

Also Noid, shut up, you are dumb and do not get it.
No, I get it. What you are saying is that the WWE should have busted out a flexible "rule" they modify and ignore whenever it suits them to play out the injury angle, and not have the World Heavyweight Title defended for 69 days.

Look, if you are unable to accept that the length a champion can go without defending the title changes more-so than the cruiserweight weight limit in the WWE, then look at it this way:

Mike Adamle is meant to be an idiot General Manager. Do you really think he understands the nuances of championship lore? No, he cares about his "Adamle Original" and presenting a World Heavyweight Title match when he advertised one. Punk is the variable, the World Heavyweight Title is not.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:33 PM   #60
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That's kinda what I meant in terms of different management. It was Adamle's call, not the company's. He made the decision without there consent to show that he can handle big situations. He's still new and people still think he's a goober, so he's attempting to prove his worth. At least, that's how his character is appearing to me.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:39 PM   #61
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Michelle McCool should've been stripped of the Divas title a few weeks ago
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:40 PM   #62
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I saw the PPV. I thought the attack on Punk was a great way to take the belt off of him without making him lose the belt. It's been done in wrestling before and it sets up a chase program. and it can be a chase for the title or towards a goal lik defeating Orton. Jericho winning was well deserved for him having the feud of the year with HBK. Poor booking or not, whatever. They can book the shittiest of the shittiest and I've learned over the past few years that the WWE will contnue to generate $$$ for whatever they throw out on camera. It doesn't matter anymore. They've become so huge that the company could give two shits if thier program is logically correct

speaking of credibility though, if you want to have that argument, I think the whole scramle match really lessens the Title's cred. For fuck's sake, The belt goes back and forth with people getting beat left and right. It's insane. The belt has been a prop forever, but it really became a prop in those matches. how the heck do you look strong coming out of that match?? I think Punk was definately better off not working that match tbh. it's built for a sneaky pinfall like Jericho's.

anyway, on the topic, just don't take the comments on here to heart. enjoy the show or don't enjoy the show, but don't let a message board get to you
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:41 PM   #63
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Michelle McCool should've been stripped.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:54 PM   #64
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OH NO you didn't
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:56 PM   #65
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I'm sorry, I still don't see how CM Punk being stripped of a title after being taken out by 4 guys suddenly means he's weaker for it. Maybe it's just me.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:58 PM   #66
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I'm sorry, I still don't see how CM Punk being stripped of a title after being taken out by 4 guys suddenly means he's weaker for it. Maybe it's just me.
It's not just you.
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Old 09-10-2008, 12:06 AM   #67
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I agree with your points 2 and 3, Noid. Jericho/Michaels has been the best program Raw has had to offer in a long time. And I see that they did want to get the title off of Punk and Jericho is the best choice based on the fact that A) the aforementioned reason B) he isn't Batista. As far as long-term Punk, I agree that we will have to wait and see how he is used, but for right now agree to disagree on the being kicked in the head situation. They booked him fine in ECW, but as soon as he got to Raw it's like they've been afraid to give him the ball.
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Old 09-10-2008, 12:28 AM   #68
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But did you ever say how you woulda done it?
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Old 09-10-2008, 12:38 AM   #69
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I think this is the perfect way to address Punk having won the championship in a so-called "fluke" match, as long as they use the time to build up a solid feud with Randy Orton. Maybe Orton gets the belt, and then Punk can win it in a legit feud.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:01 AM   #70
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But did you ever say how you woulda done it?
I suggested a couple things in another thread (don't remember which one, sorry). One was just have Punk get beat up and RKO'ed, but not punted (since punting is what puts people on the shelf) and come out and fight. You could take the title off him pretty easily then and he still wrestles.

Another was he does get punted but still makes it down to the ring and gets speared right off. From there he basically does what Jericho does, ie lays outside the ring and wins at the last second. I then said he would be stripped the next night and Raw has a Gold Rush tourney which Jericho wins.

I don't know if I posted it, but there could have been a scenario where nothing happens to Punk, but Kane goes and kills Rey. Jericho replaces Rey and Orton and Co attack Punk on the outside during the match.

Or they just have the match and Punk either wins or loses clean. A win would have been bigger than anything in his entire reign, at this point.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:39 AM   #71
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Not bad ideas at all, sir.

Btw, "killing Rey" was hyperbole, right?
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:50 AM   #72
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No, I think he meant literally. Like run him over with a Hummer and blow up his limo.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:53 AM   #73
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I saw the PPV. I thought the attack on Punk was a great way to take the belt off of him without making him lose the belt. It's been done in wrestling before and it sets up a chase program. and it can be a chase for the title or towards a goal lik defeating Orton. Jericho winning was well deserved for him having the feud of the year with HBK. Poor booking or not, whatever. They can book the shittiest of the shittiest and I've learned over the past few years that the WWE will contnue to generate $$$ for whatever they throw out on camera. It doesn't matter anymore. They've become so huge that the company could give two shits if thier program is logically correct

speaking of credibility though, if you want to have that argument, I think the whole scramle match really lessens the Title's cred. For fuck's sake, The belt goes back and forth with people getting beat left and right. It's insane. The belt has been a prop forever, but it really became a prop in those matches. how the heck do you look strong coming out of that match?? I think Punk was definately better off not working that match tbh. it's built for a sneaky pinfall like Jericho's.

anyway, on the topic, just don't take the comments on here to heart. enjoy the show or don't enjoy the show, but don't let a message board get to you
Someone who speaks sense.
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Old 09-10-2008, 02:00 AM   #74
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I agree with your points 2 and 3, Noid. Jericho/Michaels has been the best program Raw has had to offer in a long time. And I see that they did want to get the title off of Punk and Jericho is the best choice based on the fact that A) the aforementioned reason B) he isn't Batista. As far as long-term Punk, I agree that we will have to wait and see how he is used, but for right now agree to disagree on the being kicked in the head situation. They booked him fine in ECW, but as soon as he got to Raw it's like they've been afraid to give him the ball.
I'll concede to that. I'm sure the WWE could fuck up Punk very easily. I don't think this "horrible booking," though. They didn't want to shove Punk down our throats as a Superman, so we're getting a more human and fallible Punk. At least, I hope that is the reason for it. If we do see Punk continuously getting bitched, I'll agree with you, but I don't think it's a misstep so far.

As for those suggestions you made. While I don't think they are bad, you still have similar problems in all of them. If Punk took a beat-down, went out there and lost the title, he wouldn't prove anything other than he is stupid, can't quit when he should, and that he can't power through these things. If he got taken out mid-match, it would still be him losing the title because he couldn't handle things. Punk needed to win that Scramble, but if they took the title from him on RAW, it'd be a repeat of the strippings Cena and Batista have had. Punk would also look far too untouchable (having made it through hell) to really have a big issue with Orton and co.

I think this is the most intense way to add immediate fuel to the Punk/Orton fire.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:31 AM   #75
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Did you see the PPV, Rob? If so, then you'd have picked up that Jericho didn't get any offense in the main event. He basically took a spear from Batista, and looked too hurt to be a threat.

You'd have also picked up that Jericho entered the match as a rebound from his embarrassing loss to HBK earlier. It was Jericho posing the question to HBK "Do you really think you've won the war?"

Jericho was in there for five minutes, and was far from the shining star offense-wise in the match. Jericho's presence made perfect sense for the mere fact he could convince Mike Adamle to let him into the match (he has a recent fall over CM Punk while he was World Heavyweight Champion), and that he was only in there five minutes and played it smart. Does it somewhat undermine the beat-down Shawn Michaels put on Jericho earlier? Yes, but that is the point of it. It was Jericho taking a kick to the teeth and then gritting them, realising they are all there, and taunting Shawn Michaels by telling him it didn't hurt.
Yeah I saw it. Why would I be commenting on something I didn't see?

Jericho got a fluke title win after getting the living piss kicked out of him by Shawn Michaels. And it's bollocks saying it's taunting Michaels by telling him it didn't hurt. Him showing his bruises on Raw immediately reject that idea.

The majority of fans think it's shitty booking. If you think it isn't then good for you. Nobody should be throwing hissy fits over people having opinions over something like this. It's not like it's like the arguement about how it would be easier to forgive Chris Benoit for being a cold hearted killer than forgiving Hulk Hogan for the perception he is a jerk.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:34 AM   #76
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I saw the PPV. I thought the attack on Punk was a great way to take the belt off of him without making him lose the belt.
If it was Shawn Michaels or Triple H not dropping a belt in the ring in this manner, people wouldn't be saying it was a good way of getting the belt off the champion and you know it.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:36 AM   #77
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That would probably be because Triple H and Shawn Michaels are established stars.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:36 AM   #78
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Majority? Or some pissy fans unhappy that Jericho, who they fevrishly complained wasn't in the Scramble, got the win without looking like the most dominant force imaginable? I have yet to see anything wrong with how this was done. That's not to say I don't recognize other possibilities. But I think we may be overreacting a bit. "We", of course, meaning "you".
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:36 AM   #79
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Quote:
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If it was Shawn Michaels or Triple H not dropping a belt in the ring in this manner, people wouldn't be saying it was a good way of getting the belt off the champion and you know it.
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That would probably be because Triple H and Shawn Michaels are established stars.
Yeah, I'd say that about sums it up.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:50 AM   #80
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Majority? Or some pissy fans unhappy that Jericho, who they fevrishly complained wasn't in the Scramble, got the win without looking like the most dominant force imaginable? I have yet to see anything wrong with how this was done. That's not to say I don't recognize other possibilities. But I think we may be overreacting a bit. "We", of course, meaning "you".
Fucking idiot.

Your champion needs to look strong. Punk title run was a failure because he was booked weak. Same with Jericho's first run. I'd rather Jericho not even be in the match and put the belt on one of the others. Or have Michaels be the 5th guy and win the title. No champion in the history of wrestling, boxing or MMA (and it's all the same so don't argue it ain't) has drawn money as a weak champion. Not a single one.

Some people understand wrestling booking is used to MAKE MONEY. Some don't. You are obviously the latter.
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