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Old 11-02-2008, 01:36 AM   #41
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I never said Foley couldn't wrestler, however his charisma and hard work helped him alot.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:37 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by FourFifty View Post
Yea, but at least Foley would put people over. He might have been a whiny little bitch, but saying Foley is down there with Hogan? I'm not the biggest Foley fan, but I think he should get a LITTLE more credit than what you're giving him.
I don't disagree with you either, but it was my understanding that the question posed by Destor was in regards to actual wrestling skills.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:38 AM   #43
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Foley was better than Hogan in a lot of aspects, but as far as actually wrestling skills... I dunno man.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:39 AM   #44
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Also, if you're judging him by most of his matches in the past 10 years then theres the problem.

He continued to work in 1999 despite serious problems with his body, because Vince wanted him to and he was saving money for his family.
His return matches were all shit for the same reason, with the exception of his programs with Edge and Orton, which were great.

Look at his stuff before that. Look at his matches from WWF 96-98. A good amount of great matches. Mostly solid work.
Same goes for his stints in ECW and WCW, where he put on a lot of good matches.
The attitude era Mankind isn't the best example to look at, even though it's the most memorable time period.

Theres more to wrestling than spots. Yes he took big bumps, but just because you don't associate him with high flying or technical expertise doesn't mean he's shitty.

His psychology is some of the best ever. Raven and Jake the Snake are two other guys who were similar, and they don't get much credit as "wrestlers" because of it. It's not a sport, it's an athletic performance, and theres more subltle criteria.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:40 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
Also, if you're judging him by most of his matches in the past 10 years then theres the problem.

He continued to work in 1999 despite serious problems with his body, because Vince wanted him to and he was saving money for his family.
His return matches were all shit for the same reason, with the exception of his programs with Edge and Orton, which were great.

Look at his stuff before that. Look at his matches from WWF 96-98. A good amount of great matches. Mostly solid work.
Same goes for his stints in ECW and WCW, where he put on a lot of good matches.
The attitude era Mankind isn't the best example to look at, even though it's the most memorable time period.

Theres more to wrestling than spots. Yes he took big bumps, but just because you don't associate him with high flying or technical expertise doesn't mean he's shitty.

His psychology is some of the best ever. Raven and Jake the Snake are two other guys who were similar, and they don't get much credit as "wrestlers" because of it. It's not a sport, it's an athletic performance, and theres more subltle criteria.
You make some good points Jerry (as always). I might have been little harsh for deeming Foley a "shitty" wrestler, which I guess isn't really fair, but it's just that imo he's not that great. I think it takes more than ring psychology to be a great wrestler.
Last edited by Juan; 11-02-2008 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:40 AM   #46
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I just don't think you're giving "wrestling skills" a fair interpretation.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:41 AM   #47
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Mind Games 1996 is one of my favorite matches ever. And I'm aware it's against HBM, I don't care don't use that copout shit about him carrying a mop to a good match because it's a GREAT match and it takes two to tango. HHH is excellent and look at his matches with Steiner

Hogan has nothing on the level of Mind Games 96, or his match with Orton in 04. Or a ton of his stuff with Sting and Vader in early 90s WCW
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:43 AM   #48
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And I'm not a blind Hogan hater. He has some good matches, to his credit, from his time.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:51 AM   #49
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:52 AM   #50
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Quote:
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I just don't think you're giving "wrestling skills" a fair interpretation.
I think we need to talk about what "wrestling skills" are. I say they're skills that makes someone a good wrestler/superstar/entertainer/etc. Skills that allows someone to make it in the industry, in and out of the ring.

For example- I would say that Matt Hardy has better wrestling skills than Jeff Hardy because while Jeff might be better in the ring, he hasn't made the best choices outside of the ring. Also, Matt is a better talker than Jeff. So, Matt Hardy has better "wrestling skills" than Jeff.

The Giant Baba moved like a piece of crap in the ring, but he was the co-founder of AJPW. I can name 4,649 better workers than Giant Baba. However, he had the skills to make him Japan's own Hulk Hogan. Not with his ring work, but what he did outside of the ring.

Maybe this thread should be called "The shittest worker" instead of wrestler.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:55 AM   #51
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I guess I should say that Foley is a shitty wrestler, but a great worker. Not THE shittiest of the shit though.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:56 AM   #52
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Some people hate Foley as a performer. I'm not one of them. I can see why they do, but I think they're overlooking the big picture.

I'm actually a pretty big fan, and not because of Hell in a Cell 98 or any of his big bumps, but because he's got some amazing matches, has some of the best ring psychology of all time and IMO one of the greatest promo men ever (even though this isn't relevant to the topic at hand).
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:57 AM   #53
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Ultimate Warrior and Andre The Giant. Although Andre could work in his earlier days. After a while it just got painful to watch.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:59 AM   #54
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Ultimate Warrior and Andre The Giant. Although Andre could work in his earlier days. After a while it just got painful to watch.
I'm suprised you didn't say Shawn Michaels
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:59 AM   #55
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.......................................................people get killed for saying bad things about Andre The Giant.............................................. Just sayin'............................................
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:00 AM   #56
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Andre and Warrior (yes, even Warrior) have some damn good matches.

Mostly Andre back in the day. Warrior belongs pretty far down the list on this criteria, but he's certainly not at the bottom.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:13 AM   #57
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His views on civil rights makes me want to stab him in the throat.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:27 AM   #58
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How many people really call Warrior a legend though?
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Old 11-02-2008, 02:24 AM   #59
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Duggan, if he counts.
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Old 11-02-2008, 07:40 AM   #60
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How many people really call Warrior a legend though?
I think the legend part is what everyone's missing here.
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Old 11-02-2008, 10:29 AM   #61
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The Warrior is a legend. There, I said it.
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:05 PM   #62
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:10 PM   #63
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I think the legend part is what everyone's missing here.
Anyone in the WWF over 10 years ago is automatically a legend by WWE standards.

Yes people, Savio Vega is a legend.
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:18 PM   #64
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They use the word 'legend' in the same sene they use the word 'superstar'.
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:26 PM   #65
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:27 PM   #66
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:41 PM   #67
Nark Order
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Didn't Doink show up one time on Smackdown to wrestle Benoit and they put the legend graphic next to his name?
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:44 PM   #68
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They throw that graphic up for anyone though. Pretty sure Skinner gets that graphic. SKINNER.
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Old 11-02-2008, 02:09 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan View Post
I guess I should say that Foley is a shitty wrestler, but a great worker. Not THE shittiest of the shit though.


May I ask when you started watching wrestling, sir?
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Old 11-02-2008, 02:11 PM   #70
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On topic,

Mil Mascaras.
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Old 11-02-2008, 02:50 PM   #71
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Doink IS a legend, you fools. One of the greatest characters ever in his initial run. I'd love to forget him as a face, but heel Doink and conspiracy theory Chris Jericho are my two favorite characters to ever set foot in a ring.
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Old 11-02-2008, 02:51 PM   #72
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Doink is clearly legendary
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Old 11-02-2008, 04:10 PM   #73
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Hogan wasn't the horrible wrestler he's made out to be. He was fed a constant barrage of shitty "monster" opponents (kind of like The Undertaker would be in the mid 90s). So, he had terrible matches with King Kong Bundy, Andre the Giant, Ultimate Warrior, Zeus, Akeem.... anybody would have. His matches against the likes of Orndorff, Savage and later Ric Flair show a different side of Hogan... a Hogan who could actually wrestle. (Watch his Japan matches against Muta or 1994 WCW matches against Flair as an example).

As for Foley, he was the guy who actually gave Undertaker his first good feud. 'Taker, much like Hogan before him, had picked up a reputation as a shitty wrestler through a series of interminable matches against monster bad guys. If you'd asked anybody in 1992-1995 who the worst in-ring wrestler in the business was, you may be surprised how many would have said Undertaker. Foley brought out a new side of Taker, and set him on the path to where he is today... a big guy who actually has good matches. Foley also MADE Triple H's reputation (I don't care what anyone says, Triple H was NOT effectively getting over in the main event scene until the run with Cactus Jack).

Hogan and Foley, both guys who unfairly picked up 'bad wrestler' labels for their entire careers, but who only really deserved them right at the end.
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Old 11-02-2008, 06:42 PM   #74
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^^
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Old 11-02-2008, 06:59 PM   #75
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Second page and no Sid joke yet? TPWW is slipping.
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Old 11-02-2008, 07:08 PM   #76
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Sid is there by default, we just thought we wouldnt shit on him anymore.
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Old 11-02-2008, 07:21 PM   #77
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Quote:
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May I ask when you started watching wrestling, sir?
Regularly? 1990.
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Old 11-02-2008, 09:49 PM   #78
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Then I'm confused. You saw his feuds with Sting, Vader, Terry Funk, Undertaker, The Rock, Stone Cold, Triple H, and Randy Orton, and you still consider him a "shitty wrestler"? His match with HBK at Mind Games speaks legions against that sentiment. A fah on you, sir.
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Old 11-02-2008, 10:06 PM   #79
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He said he was a great worker, not a great wrestler. What is there to be confused about? Anyone can be carried to a decent match if you are against HBK. Against Funk Foley was in his element, the hardcore style. Taker, The Rock, Stone Cold, Triple H? All of his best matches against them were gimmick matches. Hell, Foley's finisher is a gimmick. Which is not to say Foley isn't a tremendous worker and a master of psychology, but he is nowhere near a wrestler's wrestler.
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Old 11-02-2008, 10:22 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FourFifty View Post
Luger or Hogan..... Hmmmmm....

I'm gonna say Luger. Lex was the headline for WWE and WCW. He had the world, and pissed it away. It's not like he was a midcarder, or an upper main eventer and pissed it away. It's not like he was a flash in the pan, and then pissed it away. He had it all, and now has nothing.
how did Luger piss everything away? please explain? I didn't know he was booking all those times
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