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Old 01-18-2009, 08:15 PM   #41
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See: James Thompson vs. Don Frye.... and Takiyama vs. Frye... fucking terrible technical fights but entertaining and ridiculous and dramatic.
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Old 01-18-2009, 08:18 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash Bang Newstead View Post

Also up until he gassed, Shogun's ground game was pretty decent, every time he got taken down he didn't have much trouble standing up, up until the third when he could barely stand.
Thats the point I made Thanks for making it again.
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Old 01-18-2009, 08:23 PM   #43
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Yeah but I'm not complaining about it... I still think it was an entertaining fight... I just think they gassed.

Two tough dudes who aren't what they once were, going toe-to-toe, yeah they gassed out and it got sloppy. who fucking cares. It was still entertaining to me, and everyone in the arena.

Only snooty stuck up MMA fanboys who think it's "bad for the sport" are going to complain about it.
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Old 01-18-2009, 08:24 PM   #44
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lol and Bonnar and Griffin both gassed THE FUCK out in their first fight. Both of them could barely stand by the third round. You gonna tell me they were bad for the sport too?
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Old 01-18-2009, 08:28 PM   #45
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HAHAHAHA seriously?

they gasses in the third from the frantic pace they kept the entire fight, and when they got tired they kept going.

The two slobs last night got tired in the first because they didnt train. And they got tired in a fight that looked to be in slow motion to begin with.
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Old 01-18-2009, 08:30 PM   #46
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Do you actually read the posts I made or just pick and choose what you want to interperet from the words you can read in them?
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Old 01-18-2009, 08:34 PM   #47
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Me and you will have to disagree.

And Bonnar and Griffin were both pretty "sloppy" in that fight. Not exactly crisp striking. But they banged it out and it was a great fight. People are just used to more from Shogun, because he's been able to give more. Unfortunately the knee injuries have fucked him up.

And I don't think it has anything to do with performance enhancers, because in Pride he fought in America on a couple separate occasions where there is testing. So either he wasn't on them, or he knows how to get around it.
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Old 01-18-2009, 08:38 PM   #48
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You honestly need to calm down though. It's just a fuckin fight lol, and I happened to enjoy it, doesn't make me a terrible person.

I respect you for training mma and my bad for calling you a couch fighter, I actually apollogize because I'd be pissed in your shoes, but I'm a fan of mma just like anyone else, and I like to watch fights and I don't really like trashing fighters unless they don't fight (see Kalib Starnes), and these guys fought. Not very good performances but it led to a good brawl and they showed heart. Just what I saw and took from it. Sue me.
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Old 01-18-2009, 08:42 PM   #49
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I dont have a problem with the fight so much as you being a dooche... thanks for the apology
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Old 01-18-2009, 09:22 PM   #50
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You're the one who told me to shutup when I said I enjoyed the fight and then I retorted via calling you a clown.
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Old 01-19-2009, 01:43 AM   #51
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I was entertained by Shogun vs Coleman.
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Old 01-19-2009, 01:00 PM   #52
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I found myself really into the backstory of the fight, so I was able to look past its technical shortcomings. I was rooting for Coleman, by the way.
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Old 01-19-2009, 01:46 PM   #53
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Oh wow! 2 other people who enjoyed the fight! :O

Maybe it wasn't a gigantic insult to mma.
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Old 01-19-2009, 01:56 PM   #54
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I dont care that you liked the fight... actually I enjoyed the laughing at it, I took problem with you giving both fighters praise and saying they both showed tremendus heart.

Where in any of my posts did I say you were wrong for enjoying the fight?

I only touched on the fact that both competitors were slobs. Plus the fact that you are a complete dooche.
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:04 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash Bang Newstead View Post
Rua vs. Coleman wasn't bad at all, it was entertaining as hell. Shogun's had 2 knee surgeries, his gas tank isn't gonna be great and Coleman's 44 years old. Not great performances technically but they both showed some ridiculous heart and brawled like mofos.
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Oh my god shut up. They didnt show heart or skill or anything for that matter. Ive seen more skill and conditioning from the local amature shows I fight at. Coleman was gassed after 2 minutes and i dont know when shogun gassed cus he barely did anything other than shoulder roll on the ground and throw slow knees and he couldnt move come the second round. Just cuz coleman took a milion shots and didnt give up or go down doesnt mean he has no heart... It means hes so punch drunk that he wasnt feeling it.

Shogun is the most retarded fighter ever. Why would you fight in close with an ncaa champ. Why would he go for a clinch and throw knes after he landed strikes? How fucking retarded is that. He got taken down every time. He would have ended the fights with leg kicks if he kept throwing them.

That fight was awful... entertaining in the sense that I was discusted and couldnt look away, but aful in any sense of the concept of fighting.

Oh and franklin got screwed
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Haha you're a clown. Fact is, neither of them had a good night, but they stuck in there until the end and threw down. It was a fun fight to watch, they landed some bombs and Coleman got some pretty good takedowns.

They were both CLEARLY gassed, there's no doubt, but they didn't give up. Neither of them are currently title contenders, that is perfectly clear but instead of being an MMA snob who posts on Sherdog too much, just enjoy a good brawl and 2 guys who laid it on the line. It's pretty clear Shogun isn't his old self, but fuck, that combo at the end was devestating. Yes I'm aware Coleman kind of just stood in front of him... but what can you do? a 44 year old dude who hasn't fought in 2 years vs. a guy coming back from 2 knee surgeries. I wasn't expecting a "crisp" performance from either.

You shouldn't watch MMA if you have no respect for the combatants, I hate to call you a couch fighter, but clearly you are if you're talking this much shit. Coleman showed heart against Fedor and showed even more heart against Shogun. There's a reason he won over the crowd.
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Did you seriously just call me a couch fighter?! YOUR THE FUCKING CLOWN!

I actually fight numb nuts! Are you fucking retarded?

MMA snob? No respect for the combatants? Are you fucking kidding me???

Try someone who has a tremendus respect for the sport and doesnt respect some bull shit slob ass specticle that those two former shells put on last night. I respect the guys that put in hard work and both in training and in the fight. I respect the guys that put in the full effort because they respect the sport and themselves more than their paychecks.


Why dont YOU never open your mouth again because you make yourself sound like a complete jack ass that knows nothing about the sport.
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And what is with this backward concept of what you call heart? Just because a guy sits in there and takes shots all the while holding his hands by his belt and turning colors because he cant breathe doesnt mean he has heart. Heart comes from the TRAINING you put in. The hours and weeks of pushing your limits and the sacrifice of yourself and the people around you to work for a goal. Something they clearly didnt do. How dare you tell me what those slobs showed out there was heart.
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I don't think I know everything about the sport, I just enjoy a good scrap. It was a good scrap. They tangled, they landed bombs and they both stuck it out. Would I rather watch GSP vs. BJ Penn? Yeah. But I can still have fun watching two guys brawl. Shogun is not himself, but he still went in there and stuck it out. Coleman is far past his prime, but he stuck it out. LOL he gassed in like 2 minutes, but yet he managed to get take downs and work hard. It's not like I think it was the best fight ever, but it was a good scrap. Get off your fucking high horse.

Fact is, Shogun's not who he was, I'm pretty sure he tore both his ACL and MCL right off or something. I personally wasn't expecting the Shogun of old to show up, I was expecting him not to look all that great. And Coleman's a fuckin NCAA wrestler, the dude's a competitor so even though he's washed up, he's gonna keep pushing through the pain. That's what both of them did... they kept going, even though they were pretty shit. I respect and appreciate that.

I don't know, it's not like they ran away from each other all fight and lay on one another. That's what pisses me off. At least they engaged and landed bombs. And Shogun was definintely landing some shots all fight. Look at Coleman's face. And the leg kicks etc.

Yeah they both gassed... who gives a shit? Just sit back and enjoy it. Don't be a fucking snooty little baby about it.
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WOW again your a moron.




Shogun stuck it out because coleman couldnt hurt him at all. He was able to get takedowns on shogun because shogun had an awful gameplan of clinching a wrestler.


This is where I question whether you watched the fight....

If Shogun's jujitsu wasnt what it was, coleman would have laid on him the entire match. And after coleman got that initial takedown right off the bat of the first round... did you notice where he was the rest of the match? His back was to the cage almost using it as a support. The only reason he wasnt running from shogun was because the cage was there and he doesnt understand striking enough to know he needs to circle out.


Now I like to see a match with two guys landing bombs as much as the next guy, but thats not even what this was!!! Bonnar/Griffen, Wanderlei/Rampage, or the paul kell/paul taylor match from last year (I might have that confused with the marcus davis/jesse liaudin fight, whichever it was, it was the most impressive back and forth trading punches fights Ive ever seen) Those fights are when two competitors are throwing bombs and getting after it.
Quote:
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Well I can't be incorrect about enjoying the fight because I did.

And yeah, as I said, I'd rather watch other guys go at it... but considering who it was in the main event I was entertained. The only other option was Shogun murdering him...so at least it was interesting in that you didn't know whether or not Shogun was gonna win cuz Coleman came out in the third round hotter than Shogun.

You can't compare this fight to Griffin/Bonnar, Wandy/Quinton... cuz neither of these guys is on top of their game or up and coming... they're both a shadow of their former selves, so I don't really know what you came in expecting.

Also up until he gassed, Shogun's ground game was pretty decent, every time he got taken down he didn't have much trouble standing up, up until the third when he could barely stand.

I honestly don't think it was a fight of the night or anything, it was just dramatic and kept me interested. Maybe it's the wrestling fan in me.

Tho I think Chuck will probably murder Shogun lol.


Not once did I ever question you for enjoying the fight! If you just said I enjoyed the fight, I would have never said anything but you went on to say how they showed heart and performed like warriors blah blah blah.... I took issue with that. Then you went on to be a complete idiot who couldnt handle someone calling them out on something, and instead of listening to what that person had to say you took like an immature 3rd grader.

Again you have made yourself look like an ass hole.
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:36 PM   #56
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Actually I just argued with you, the worst I called you was a snob and a bit of a baby... you brought in the name calling.

I appreciated them slugging it out, that's all. I thought they showed heart, I don't see what's wrong with that? In no way shape or form did I think they turned in top notch performances, but sometimes you don't, and the best you can do is put on a show and duke it out.
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:43 PM   #57
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Honestly, the reason I think Shogun showed heart was because of his injury. He probably thought he was in good shape going into the fight, but as it turned out he wasn't. It's hard to come back after such bad injuries, I can't possibly question his will to compete. And Coleman...well he's an old man and looks it, he seemed like he was going to die, he could have verbally tapped at any point but he went and met Shogun in the middle of the ring. You're a fighter yourself, haven't you gassed? I don't know, I've personally been shit tired during a work out or a rugby game, and have wanted to give up so badly cuz I could barely breath. They were able to put on a show and I respect that.
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Old 01-20-2009, 04:57 AM   #58
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Nobody asked Shogun to say before and after the fight that he was in perfect physical condition. He chose to say it. How can you just think you are in shape as an elite fighter? The ammount of training fighters do, and the level of physical checks done on a rehabbing fighter is so thorough that his condition must have been well known in advance. I mean, surely he had Coleman sized guys sparring with him every day. He never looked at all sharp or deadly in the first round so the fact is he was in bad shape.

Coleman without the juice he has abused himself with for so many years, will never be able to gain the stamina or explosive power of even a lower level LHW. That's just how it is. He has about 60lbs of muscle mass that slows him down, and is rendered useless now.

My point is Coleman is in terrible shape. he can't have trained like the Bonnar's and GSP's of this world, and the fact he spent years cheating, has caught up. And Shogun was in just as bad shape. Neither showed much if any technique in what they did or had a neautralising gameplan for the other. This is the premier league of MMA. I don't watch the lower leagues because the standard isnt as high. And on a card with fights as good as Horn/Palhares, Davis/Lytle, Franklin/Hendo. Where all those guys worked their asses off in the gym, none of them were seriously gassed and all went the distance, they didn't deserve the exposure they got because they basically didn't work as hard, and as a result the standard was dreadful. An awful representation of where MMA is in 2009.

call me a snob all you fucking want, but I don't watch elite level sports to see amateur standards of competition.
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:14 AM   #59
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I don't think they looked like amateurs. They were sluggish by the end, but amateurs they weren't.

It's going to take Shogun a while to get used to fighting at the pace he once did. Dude's been through a lot and hasn't fought in a year, and before that gassed in his only ufc fight because he was badly injured. That's no excuse for his loss, Griffin was better than him that night, but his knee has proven to be a problem methinks.

As for Coleman... again, dude can still cheat if he wanted to. These guys aren't dumb, they know how to cycle on and off of steroids. That's why certain guys still get caught, because they miscalculated. He gassed because he was fighting a guy who's better than him and at the beginning of the fight was pushing the pace...oh and he's 44 years old and not Randy Couture.

I dunno man, I don't know what you expected out of these guys. Either Shogun was going to knock his head off early (which he almost did in the first round) or it was going to be a brawl, which it was.
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Old 01-20-2009, 01:18 PM   #60
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K first off, they were sluggish by minute 3. Second, if you are a fighter the calibur of what shogun was, you know what it takes to get yourself into the shape you need to in order to fight. He didnt do that. If you are so injured that you cant train for the fight, then dont take it, because what you saw on saturday night was the best possible otcome out of any and as we all know it was still pretty bad. Third, the UFC randomly tests all their fighters within the months and weeks of their training camps and no matter where the ufc is fighting, they are still run by las vegas in that regard so they are tested right after the event as well. In other words no real way around getting caught. And to correct you, it was coleman who was pressing the fight in the beginning. Also its pretty stupid for you to say that shogun was that much better than him because i gaurantee you that if he didnt finally open up on coleman in the third that he would have lost on the judges score cards.

You dont know what we expected? We expected professionals to behave as such. Professionals take fighting seriously in and out of the cage. We expected UFC calibur fighting. That fight was no different than watching tank abbot get in there.

To your credit the fight was "entertaining" but not in the sense that you are watching two fighters going out there and competeing, but more like watching two amature fighters who have no training go out there and duke it out. You watch that to see people pull off moves and do things that no trained fighter would do because they dont know any better and thats what saturdays fight looked like.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:48 PM   #61
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He definitely was on his way to a decision win. Look at Coleman's face after the fight. He was clearly the better fighter.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:48 PM   #62
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He being Shogun

-edit-

Honestly brother, you are sipping hard on the hatorade.
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:22 AM   #63
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do you know how they score mma bouts?... coleman took him down at will and shogun wasnt exactly landing a ton of shots (like franklin was in his fight)... just the ones he did thow connected because coleman doesnt move his head, and for that matter did you look at coleman's face before the fight?.... it wasnt that much different .

just look at his face to determine who the better fighter is? forrest had a hole in his head by the end of his match with shogun... if he didnt finish him would you have still given the fight to shogun? common dude

honestly brother you dont get it
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Old 01-21-2009, 03:37 AM   #64
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I am still arguing whether or not Coleman was done because the ref was breaking up the fight WHILE Coleman was going for a Double leg.
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Old 01-21-2009, 03:38 AM   #65
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He looked like he was out on the way down, but somehow recovered in about one second.
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Old 01-21-2009, 05:47 AM   #66
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That sounds more like Big Nog to me.
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Old 01-21-2009, 09:33 AM   #67
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eh he may not have been totally out but the stoppage was ok... theres been a lot worse stoppages i guess

although I thought it would have been awsome if coleman stuck it out and won the decision
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:35 PM   #68
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I'm not reading all that ish, but Coleman looked hilarious throughout the fight. He looked so tired like he just wanted to go to bed. He had one oppurtunity, but he didn't finish.

btw I didn't know Vin Diesel was fighting
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Old 01-21-2009, 03:12 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reavant View Post
do you know how they score mma bouts?... coleman took him down at will and shogun wasnt exactly landing a ton of shots (like franklin was in his fight)... just the ones he did thow connected because coleman doesnt move his head, and for that matter did you look at coleman's face before the fight?.... it wasnt that much different .

just look at his face to determine who the better fighter is? forrest had a hole in his head by the end of his match with shogun... if he didnt finish him would you have still given the fight to shogun? common dude

honestly brother you dont get it
Uh I dunno what fight you were watching, but Shogun was landing lots of strikes and also took Coleman down a couple of times. He was landing a lot of knees standing as far as I could see. He also knocked him down, and punished him with kicks. Not a good performance but he definitely beat Coleman down and did sso before the finish came about. He only looked SUPER bad in the third round before he finished Coleman, that was the only point that Coleman was scoring actual points. The rest of the fight as far as I saw, was all Shogun. Coleman took him down a bunch but was tired and didn't do nearly as much damage as Shogun. He definitely licked him with some nice jabs though, just Shogun did a ton more damage.

However I would say that fights are often down to interpretation. But most of the time up until the third when they were on the ground, Coleman was not doing damage to Rua, he was defending submissions and even got caught in an Omaplata, lol though obviously a very tired one. So to me, Shogun was the more active, and delivered the more punishing blows up until the finish.

If we're just basing it on takedowns, then yea Coleman is ahead, but it's not like he controlled him, up until the third. But when they stood he got punished.

Shogun's fight, through and through.
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Old 01-21-2009, 03:54 PM   #70
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watch the fight again genius. every time shogun threw a knee he ended up on his back or it didnt really connect. he had good kicks to the legs but stopped throwing them. he never initiated a takedown, if he ended on top of coleman it was off of colemans takedowns.
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Old 01-21-2009, 03:55 PM   #71
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omaplata isnt a submission its a transition, one that he wasnt able to complete
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:30 PM   #72
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Uh an Omaplata is a submission, but it is mostly used to transition, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Dustin Hazelett used it on Tamden McCrory to finish him but I forget.

And many of Shogun's knees landed, and Coleman was able to walk threw them, it took some super balls. He also was pasting him with punches. He was just sluggish cuz it was his first fight in year. Shogun did all of the damage in that fight. You're just showing some serious bias. Maybe because you hate Shogun...maybe because you were expecting more out of him and you were one of those guys who loved him, but you're being absolutely blind and ridiculous.

Easy on the hatorade.
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:38 PM   #73
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I had Coleman up 29-28 until the finish. (I was being generous and giving Shogun Round 2.)

Ultimately, the referee changed the final outcome of the fight.

And I'm with Reavant on the "There's been worse finishes." At least Coleman wasn't standing when the fight was called off (Kimbo/Colossus.)

CBN is right, though. Omo Plata is a submission that is usually used as a sweep. It's a low percentage finish.
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:40 PM   #74
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Honestly most people I talked to had Shogun taking it 29-28, but again, it's up to interpretation... if ur big on takedowns, Coleman was winning the fight. However I'm more about ground control, and Coleman to me, showed none whereas Shogun seemed to be pressing the ground action up until the third round.
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Old 01-22-2009, 01:05 AM   #75
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yea i know its a submission but it doesnt work that way against anyone thats taken one jujitsu class before and of course im inflating that but seriously anyone who has any experience in jujitsu wount get subed by that. puting an ezekial choke on someone in their gaurd can be a submission too, but again, one class by a somewhat competant instructor will stop that. ezikial is basically smashing your forearm/wrist/hand into the trachea and wraping your other arm around the head and clamping down.
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Old 01-22-2009, 02:21 AM   #76
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Hence why I said "Low-Percentage." As in Low-Percentage of the people caught in the hold actually submit to it.

I've grappled a little bit with a guy who has done some jiu jitsu and has a pro wrestling background. I usually get dominated, but I hold my own. I've almost been Gator Choked of all things. I've been Americana'd a couple times. Closest I've come to actually winning was a poorly applied Achilles Lock.
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