Persona's that never saw full potential.

[KYR]

Didn't read all that but yes Val Venis SHOULD have been WHC at least once.

[Mogadishu]

Originally Posted by thedamndest Why was there any problem with Lesnar's booking? The man was a great athlete, he had Paul Heyman to speak for him, and he went over the right people. He was massively over. He didn't leave because he didn't appreciate what he was given. He left because he wanted to pursue another line of work.

Lesnar was given way too much too quickly, and he was inappropriately turned face far too prematurely (a month or so after Summerslam 2002).

I also feel that a major reason for Lesnar wanting to pursue another line of work, was because of the fact that he had basically achieved everything that there was to achieve. There was literally nothing left for his character to achieve.

[KYR]

Hang on. Assumed wrong there. Who's 'Mogadishu'?

[KYR]

Somalian war lord?

[thedamndest]

You should ask the Hogans, HHHs, Flairs, and so on about achieving everything in the business. The guy didn't have the passion and wanted to try to make more money elsewhere.

[Mogadishu]

Originally Posted by Know Your Role Didn't read all that but yes Val Venis SHOULD have been WHC at least once.

Sean Morley could have and should have been far greater in the WWE.

He is yet another guy that I forgot to mention.

[KYR]

Yeah. The Rock certainly wouldn't hav...nevermind.

[Mogadishu]

Originally Posted by thedamndest You should ask the Hogans, HHHs, Flairs, and so on about achieving everything in the business.

All of the guys you mentioned paid their dues in the industry before attaining their greatness.

Once these guys finally achieved "everything", they had already demonstrated a huge passion for the business, etc.

What I am saying is this: Perhaps if Lesnar wasn't given everything so much so soon, then perhaps he would have been more passionate about the industry....and about establishing a true legacy like the guys you mentioned.

[Kami Raki]

Originally Posted by Know Your Role Didn't read all that but yes Val Venis SHOULD have been WHC at least once.

Yeah he had all the skills necessary to do it. But he was another one that got lost in the shuffle.

[KYR]

[thedamndest]

When Lesnar left he was a top guy meaning he was making top money. He didn't have to fight anybody for a spot on the card. That is a spot that most guys bust their balls for their entire careers. The business is a work. It's not really about winning this title or that title or being the first guy to do this. It's about being the top guy and staying that way. And that was Lesnar. And he gave that up because he just wasn't interested in the job anymore. The money wasn't worth the time on the road and the toll on his body. He wanted to go do something else. All of these things.

[CWK]

Ok, lets clear this up about Brock.

The guy paid dues by spending years in OVW (WWE's developmental). He was a guy who got over huge with the fans and was very capable in the ring to justify having a main event spot. He never got anything too quick at all. Its called smart business. If you are getting the biggest pop of anyone on the show, Vince is going to put you at the top, period. Thats why you have guys like Cena, and Batista who both had World Titles around their waist yet were incompitent in the ring, but it didn't matter. Then take Brock who knew what to do and when to do it from the time he made his debut and could have a great match with any of the top guys at that time. Ask yourself this, did he have a bad match with The Rock at SummerSlam for the WWE Title just 5 months after his debut? No. It was an awesome match and the crowd exploded for him when he won.

No one can deny that he could perform well in the ring, was over with the fans, and was a believable champion.

Its not that Brock didn't have passion for professional wrestling, he had tons. He just didn't like being on the road 5 and 6 days a week, 52 weeks a year. If the schedule was lighter and he could have time to himself, he would still be in WWE today. But he couldn't see an end in sight with the constant, heavy travel all over the world, so thats why he left.

And on the subject of people getting too much too quick, no one mentions a thing about Kurt Angle and him getting the WWE Title less than a year after his debut. I thought Angle deserved it when he got it and is an awesome wrestler. But when he got the belt for the first time, The Rock, Stone Cold, Triple H, Undrtaker, and others were there in full force on the card. When Brock got it for the first time, Rock left for 6 months, and Austin had quit 2 months earlier, but people bitch about Brock getting the fame too quick. Its a pisser. Brock is the man.

[KYR]

I'm glad this clears things up.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Know Your Role

[Mr. Nerfect]

I can't say I disagree with the way the WWE booked Brock Lesnar. The man came, he did his thing, did it well, and then left. I don't think passion was a problem, but it was rather his other ambitions. That he did achieve young may have effected his decisions -- who knows? But if Lesnar didn't reach the top when he did, then he wouldn't have been Lesnar. He would have just, arugably, been another guy.

Randy Orton's face turn in 2004 was handled horribly, but I don't know if the decision to turn Orton face itself was bad. A fucking Toronto crowd was cheering his World Heavyweight Title win over Chris fucking Benoit. The WWE has something special on their hands then. The WWE just didn't handle it well.

Instead of Orton looking like a bad-ass, or someone with a personality the crowd could get behind, he was essentially stripped of his dignity, and everything the fans loved about him. He was dropped by Evolution and he looked like a punk-ass kid that was way in over his head. I am still not sure which of these I would have preferred, but here are two of my favourite "better ways of booking Orton in 2004" ideas:

1) Randy Orton gets turned on by Evolution, and then the next week he actually does hand the World Heavyweight Title back to Triple H. Orton basically falls into line, and concedes that he is not the present, but the future, and his time has not yet arrived.

Chris Benoit takes issue to this, and tells Orton how much the World Heavyweight Title means, and how Orton handing it over spits in the face of all those that have gone before him. Benoit could talk about how Triple H could not beat Benoit, but Orton could. Cue Orton literally spitting in Benoit's face, and then the two continuing their program with a series of matches designed to get Orton over as a great wrestler and a guy that is truly ready to be World Heavyweight Champion (for more than 8 days).

Essentially, this does lead up to Orton turning on Evolution after winning the 2005 Royal Rumble, and using his title shot like Batista did, and defeating Triple H at WrestleMania 21 to become a two-time World Heavyweight Champion. You'd even perhaps give hints that Ric Flair was pulling for Orton, because he agrees deep down with what Benoit was saying.

2) Orton does not actually make the face turn; but Triple H does. Evolution turns on Triple H when Ric Flair and Randy Orton decide that Orton is no longer the "future," but the "present." This makes Triple H obsolete to the group, so they exile him. Cue Trips getting a sledgehammer and meaning business. This would invert the Orton/Triple H dynamic to The Game being the one who won the 2005 Royal Rumble, and then challenging Orton.

This one essentially makes the "star" of the program Triple H, though. However, Orton would solidify himself as the new heel of the WWE.

[DAMN iNATOR]

A couple I can think of:

* Mordecai
* Kenzo Suzuki (yeah he had a WWE Tag Team Championship run with René Duprée, but so what? That's nowhere near what his full potential was.)
* Muhammad Hassan (Yes, I honestly believe Mark Copani's character could have flourished in the WWE by now, had the Muslim community in Dearborn not spoken out so strongly, as to force UPN to remove him from television.)

[thedamndest]

Hakushi

[KYR]

Gesundheit.

[XCaliber]

Think Matt Striker would have been better suited in the Attitude Era and yes would have gotten more heat than the Genius or Dean Douglas would have in their day.

[Swiss Ultimate]

DDP in the WWE/ Bret Hart in WCW

[Mogadishu]

Luther Reigns was another guy that I thought was doing pretty well with his heeldom before leaving the company. He had a nice look to him (no homo).

Jon Heidenreich and his "disaster pieces" were also starting to grow on me. Heidenreich was great comic relief...atleast for me.

I wonder if Ken Shamrock and Al Snow should receive nominations as well?

Owen Hart (RIP) was another guy that came to mind....and was definitely main-event level.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Mogadishu, you just reminded me, when you mentioned Heidenreich, I personally also feel that Snitsky, who was sort of like him, and in fact had an onstage encounter with him at a pay-per-view event, never really reached his full potential. I mean at best he was a guy who was constantly winning in stale rivalries on ECW, when they could have taken what I think would have been, at the very least, a somewhat intriguing chance, and had Snitsky vs. Heidenreich on the undercard of what I believe, at the time would have been WM 21 or 22. I know there had been much talk and debate over it but by the time whichever of those Mania's it was, Heidenreich had already left WWE.

[Skippord]

I fully believe if Heidenreich had raped Michael Cole on every episode of Smackdown! he would be world champion right now

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR A couple I can think of: * Mordecai * Kenzo Suzuki (yeah he had a WWE Tag Team Championship run with René Duprée, but so what? That's nowhere near what his full potential was.) * Muhammad Hassan (Yes, I honestly believe Mark Copani's character could have flourished in the WWE by now, had the Muslim community in Dearborn not spoken out so strongly, as to force UPN to remove him from television.)

Mordecai was mentioned earlier, and I'd agree. The character was sound, and Kevin Fertig could play it really well. I could have seen him being a tremendous foil for The Undertaker, which would have no doubt had got him over as sort of a "new age Kane," at the very least, if done right.

The WWE hit a wall with him when they showed him brawling with Hardcore Holly. It completely ruined the mystique of the character, and from that moment on, he was just a dude wearing white. Mystery would have gone a long way to his credibility.

This also sort of damaged Sean O'Haire's "devil's advocate" character. That and being paired with Roddy Piper. I get what the WWE were trying to do, in giving O'Haire the rub with Piper -- but O'Haire would have truly been better off on his own -- or feuding with guys Piper threw at him. I cannot remember for sure, but I seem to remember O'Haire's in-ring booking just not matching the "cool" vibe the character had going. I think he should have been more dominant. There was something almost "inhuman" behind the character that I think should have been played up on more.

[Ironballs]

Originally Posted by Mogadishu It's basically psychology. You sometimes want something that you can't have. During The Rock's corporate days, the more that the fans wanted to cheer for The Rock....and the more that they couldn't due to his heeldom, the more that they literally CRAVED to cheer the guy once he made that face turn.

This reminds me of how in the middle of his catchphrases he would say "Shut your mouths this ain't sing along with The Rock!" and the fans' reaction would instantly 180. Good stuff.