TPWW Forums  

Go Back   TPWW Forums > w r e s t l i n g > wrestling forum
Reload this Page Raw rating lowest since July 2012
Register Members List

Reply
Page 22 of 24 « First 12131415161718192021 22 2324
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-23-2016, 05:27 PM   #1
The CyNick
Make the IWC Great Again
 
The CyNick's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,922
The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)
It's short lived

I'm planning to Rock this place.
The CyNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2016, 05:36 PM   #2
Ol Dirty Dastard
boop/bop/beep
 
Ol Dirty Dastard's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,453
Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
pop a rating
Ol Dirty Dastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2016, 03:23 PM   #3
The CyNick
Make the IWC Great Again
 
The CyNick's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,922
The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
pop a rating
Ì get up at 4AM and start reading and typing, reading and typing!
The CyNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2016, 05:38 PM   #4
Innovator
Inno Knows.
 
Innovator's Avatar
 
Posts: 43,710
Innovator makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Innovator makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Innovator makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Innovator makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Innovator makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Innovator makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Innovator makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Innovator makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Innovator makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Innovator makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Innovator makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Innovator makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Innovator makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Arrive.
Pop A Rating.
Leave.
Innovator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2016, 05:38 PM   #5
Ol Dirty Dastard
boop/bop/beep
 
Ol Dirty Dastard's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,453
Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Hulk Hogan in WCW styles. Brilliant politicking
Ol Dirty Dastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2016, 06:51 PM   #6
#1-norm-fan
Resident drug enabler
 
#1-norm-fan's Avatar
 
Posts: 45,473
#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Arrive
Vince Sheep,,,
Leave
#1-norm-fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2016, 06:58 PM   #7
Ol Dirty Dastard
boop/bop/beep
 
Ol Dirty Dastard's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,453
Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
,,,,,,,,
Ol Dirty Dastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2016, 07:07 PM   #8
BigCrippyZ
 
BigCrippyZ's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,033
BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
Fucktard arrive.
Fucktard.
Fucktard leave.
BigCrippyZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2016, 03:21 PM   #9
The CyNick
Make the IWC Great Again
 
The CyNick's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,922
The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
Fucktard arrive.
Fucktard.
Fucktard leave.
No creativity, eh? What an unfortunate set of circumstances.
The CyNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2016, 04:02 PM   #10
BigCrippyZ
 
BigCrippyZ's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,033
BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
No creativity, eh? What an unfortunate set of circumstances.
I see you've finally realized WWE's new motto.
BigCrippyZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2016, 05:55 PM   #11
The CyNick
Make the IWC Great Again
 
The CyNick's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,922
The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
I see you've finally realized WWE's new motto.
If that's the case the fans must not enjoy creativity.
The CyNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2016, 05:34 PM   #12
#1-norm-fan
Resident drug enabler
 
#1-norm-fan's Avatar
 
Posts: 45,473
#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
HAH!
#1-norm-fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2016, 08:14 PM   #13
#1-norm-fan
Resident drug enabler
 
#1-norm-fan's Avatar
 
Posts: 45,473
#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
The millions upon millions who have tuned out over recent years probably do.
#1-norm-fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2016, 08:55 PM   #14
Ol Dirty Dastard
boop/bop/beep
 
Ol Dirty Dastard's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,453
Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
The only people who say that are Dave Meltzer and his sheep,,,,,,


you fucking Meltzer Sheep,,,,,
Ol Dirty Dastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 11:26 PM   #15
Mr. Nerfect
 
Posts: 61,634
Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Do the WWE release numbers of who watches each show? I'd be curious to know how many people watch RAW on the Network each week. SmackDown and NXT for that matter. I'd like to know the stats on how many people watch their PPVs on the Network, and how many watch them live.

I guess with things like the App, it's just people downloading it once. I'd be curious to know how much has been done with this app since. They're clearly after Network sign-ons more than actual money, because they've given WrestleMania away for free again. Basically they want that giant number for sign-ups, but then they need to keep those people signed on. We'll see if that happens. I'm expecting a massive sign-up and then a steep, steep drop-off. It'll be interesting to see what happens to the stock after that news.

Fuck, why is WrestleMania even on the Network? They should be able to still sell the Royal Rumble, WrestleMania, SummerSlam, and you know what, Money in the Bank for about $30 through a PPV provider. Or be their own PPV provider but still charge that much for such a "premium" product. With NXT, your PPV library, some original programming and the rest of your upcoming PPVs airing on the Network, it really feels like there's a lot of money being left on the table.
Mr. Nerfect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 11:56 PM   #16
The CyNick
Make the IWC Great Again
 
The CyNick's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,922
The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Do the WWE release numbers of who watches each show? I'd be curious to know how many people watch RAW on the Network each week. SmackDown and NXT for that matter. I'd like to know the stats on how many people watch their PPVs on the Network, and how many watch them live.

I guess with things like the App, it's just people downloading it once. I'd be curious to know how much has been done with this app since. They're clearly after Network sign-ons more than actual money, because they've given WrestleMania away for free again. Basically they want that giant number for sign-ups, but then they need to keep those people signed on. We'll see if that happens. I'm expecting a massive sign-up and then a steep, steep drop-off. It'll be interesting to see what happens to the stock after that news.

Fuck, why is WrestleMania even on the Network? They should be able to still sell the Royal Rumble, WrestleMania, SummerSlam, and you know what, Money in the Bank for about $30 through a PPV provider. Or be their own PPV provider but still charge that much for such a "premium" product. With NXT, your PPV library, some original programming and the rest of your upcoming PPVs airing on the Network, it really feels like there's a lot of money being left on the table.
I wouldn't expect WWE to release internal data on per show viewership. Maybe one day if the market analysts demand it, but I dont see the relevance. As long as network subs stay in the range they are expecting, thats all they should share. It doesnt really matter if people are watching live. In fact part of the reason for the network is to appeal to the changing landscape of the audience that wants to watch things on their own schedule.

Network subs have and will most likely increase at Mania time, and then decrease post Mania. That will just be the normal cycle. Success will be can you consistently produce bigger numbers year over year, or now that they are in a highly profitable state (better than the old PPV model numbers) they can maintain the numbers they have. So far they have been able to increase year over year. Obviously at some point you will saturate the market. Then it becomes about trying to drive new markets (India, Japan, China, etc).

I disagree on making Mania, Summerslam, Rumble and MITB (????) a PPV product. Thats actually a really terrible idea for three main reasons. Number one, WWE in their effort to drive people to The Network have been driving home the fact that ordering on PPV is silly (9.99 vs 59.99), to suddenly do a 180 on that would be absurd. Second, I dont think you will have a successful network if Mania and the other shows are not included. If you look at the old PPV numbers, you had something like 100-150k ordering most of the PPVs. Thats your Network subscriber number if you pull the big shows. If thats your Network number, it goes belly up. Three, if you charge $30 on PPV, you're probably only going to take home about $10 of that, because the cable companies will charge a percentage and want to see a baseline number. WWE would be better off trying to sell Mania as an a la carte show for say $20 to Network Subscribers. But I would look to do that down the line when you have had a solid subscriber base for several years.
The CyNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 11:31 PM   #17
Mr. Nerfect
 
Posts: 61,634
Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Television is changing, but RAW needs to still remain a viable product for the USA Network to want to keep it. This whole thing about "television ratings across the board are changing" thing is bullshit for the actual networks who want people to be watching. The ratings decreasing might be an expected trend in television, but it's not a desired trend.

I bet you a more exciting product would get people to watch. The live element of the WWE programming lends itself to being able to exist outside the realm of new media, whilst still embracing it in other ways.
Mr. Nerfect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 12:04 AM   #18
The CyNick
Make the IWC Great Again
 
The CyNick's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,922
The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Television is changing, but RAW needs to still remain a viable product for the USA Network to want to keep it. This whole thing about "television ratings across the board are changing" thing is bullshit for the actual networks who want people to be watching. The ratings decreasing might be an expected trend in television, but it's not a desired trend.

I bet you a more exciting product would get people to watch. The live element of the WWE programming lends itself to being able to exist outside the realm of new media, whilst still embracing it in other ways.
I've pointed out here that Walking Dead, which is the most popular show on cable, its down nearly 10% year over year. Some of the episodes this season are off 5 million viewers from peak episodes. So thats the most popular show on cable, which you would think people would go out of their way to watch because people will spoil online or at work the next day.

With RAW, while its no longer the #1 show on all of cable like it once was, its still the most watched show on cable on Mondays, and its driving those numbers for THREE hours per week, not 30 minutes or ONE hour like some of the other popular shows. It regularly beats other sporting events like the NBA. So WWE is in no threat of being out of favour with USA. If anything, USA is down on their knees thanking their higher power that they have WWE boosting up their prime time average 2 out 5 days in the week. If WWE's contract came to an end with USA, they would have a lineup of suitors all looking to pay top dollar. Fact is even with the decline off the peak, and even the decline over the past year or so, there are not many shows on cable drawing 3-4 million viewers for 5 hours per week.
The CyNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 08:43 PM   #19
#1-norm-fan
Resident drug enabler
 
#1-norm-fan's Avatar
 
Posts: 45,473
#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I've pointed out here that Walking Dead, which is the most popular show on cable, its down nearly 10% year over year.
... Jesus, this guy has to have a learning disability.
#1-norm-fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 11:34 PM   #20
Mr. Nerfect
 
Posts: 61,634
Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
And that third hour of RAW is just not working. People are going to bed. I know the logic is that they get paid for that third hour, but how much money are they losing by overexposing their guys, having less eyes on the product and generally having less buzz around things? Don't get me wrong -- problems existed way before that third hour came in -- but losing it would give things a much more kinetic feel, allow more to be held off to SmackDown each week, and basically allow guys to stay that little tiny extra bit fresher than they are at the moment.

I don't know what WWE proposes. Maybe they can fill another hour elsewhere in the week with WWE programming? I know that's probably not what USA is after, but that third hour is just heatless. Crowd fatigue sets in too and that carries over to viewing audiences.
Mr. Nerfect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 12:08 AM   #21
The CyNick
Make the IWC Great Again
 
The CyNick's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,922
The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
And that third hour of RAW is just not working. People are going to bed. I know the logic is that they get paid for that third hour, but how much money are they losing by overexposing their guys, having less eyes on the product and generally having less buzz around things? Don't get me wrong -- problems existed way before that third hour came in -- but losing it would give things a much more kinetic feel, allow more to be held off to SmackDown each week, and basically allow guys to stay that little tiny extra bit fresher than they are at the moment.

I don't know what WWE proposes. Maybe they can fill another hour elsewhere in the week with WWE programming? I know that's probably not what USA is after, but that third hour is just heatless. Crowd fatigue sets in too and that carries over to viewing audiences.
I would bet everyone involved in terms of audience and creative all hate the third hour (me included). But you know who likes it? USA Network, thats why they are paying for it. WWE would be hard pressed to turn down the money. The only way they would drop it is if the ratings got so low, that USA couldnt sell ad space for that third hour. But there are many weeks when the third hour of RAW is the third highest watched hour of cable on Monday nights. So that means USA has advertisers lined up to buy time (this was verified in the last upfronts). its hard to imagine that changing. Advertisers want eyeballs. RAW delivers eyeballs more than just about anything on cable.
The CyNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 07:02 PM   #22
Mr. Nerfect
 
Posts: 61,634
Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Didn't USA lowball WWE on their most recent signing? Hmm.
Mr. Nerfect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 08:08 PM   #23
The CyNick
Make the IWC Great Again
 
The CyNick's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,922
The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Didn't USA lowball WWE on their most recent signing? Hmm.
I wasnt allowed in the room so I didn't hear the back and forth. If you can provide all the details of the negotiations I would love to hear it. Or did you read some random BS from unidentified sources and believe it to be the truth? Sad.
The CyNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 07:15 PM   #24
Ol Dirty Dastard
boop/bop/beep
 
Ol Dirty Dastard's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,453
Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Is this argument about what's good for USA Network? Or what's good wrestling television and what the audience wants to watch.

What the network wants vs what is actually a good product, since y'know, the network knows fuck all about booking a wrestling product, do NOT often go hand in hand. You could argue Saturday Night's Main event in the 80s being the exception but that show was an hour every few months between big time shows.

This isn't an argument about what's good for the network, it's about putting forth a good wrestling product and the third hour hurts the product as you have just admitted CyNick.

We do get it though CyNick, believe it or not. We get the Vince has handcuffed himself with this 3rd hour, because now the network wants it, and they're going to be callling the shots. They also want the authority boring everyone to tears as the #1 heels, and that is of no use to anyone trying to invest their time into the product.
Ol Dirty Dastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 08:26 PM   #25
The CyNick
Make the IWC Great Again
 
The CyNick's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,922
The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
Is this argument about what's good for USA Network? Or what's good wrestling television and what the audience wants to watch.

What the network wants vs what is actually a good product, since y'know, the network knows fuck all about booking a wrestling product, do NOT often go hand in hand. You could argue Saturday Night's Main event in the 80s being the exception but that show was an hour every few months between big time shows.

This isn't an argument about what's good for the network, it's about putting forth a good wrestling product and the third hour hurts the product as you have just admitted CyNick.

We do get it though CyNick, believe it or not. We get the Vince has handcuffed himself with this 3rd hour, because now the network wants it, and they're going to be callling the shots. They also want the authority boring everyone to tears as the #1 heels, and that is of no use to anyone trying to invest their time into the product.
Cute.

Vince didn't do anything to himself. He's obligated to maximize shareholder wealth. The extra hour that USA wanted does that. WWE finished 2015 with record revenues, so everything they are doing, TV included has been positive. I personally could live with just two hours of RAW but I'm not responsible for driving revenues, i'm just a mere fan.

As for creative, I guess we should ignore the crazy number of injuries and availability to key guys. Adding John Cena, The Rock, Randy Orton, Daniel Bryan, Seth Rollins, Cesaro, and others would have helped move storylines along over the last 12 months. But what can you do? If WWE was a sports team, and they had that lineup of injuries, people would expect them to falter. As it is even with those setbacks WWE is the #1 rated show on cable on Monday, the #1 show most Thursdays on cable, going to have close to 100k people at Mania, have increased network subs, become a beacon of success on social media, and just posted a record revenue generating year. If anything, we should be singing their praises on here every day.
The CyNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 07:28 PM   #26
screech
Shelly Martinez = Ratings
 
screech's Avatar
 
Posts: 23,625
screech makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)screech makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)screech makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)screech makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)screech makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)screech makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)screech makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)screech makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)screech makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)screech makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)screech makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)screech makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)screech makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
re: individual show tracking on the network

I remember a few months after launch they put up a graphic showing the top viewed shows on it. I'm pretty sure they were hyping that people watched whatever special had just aired.

Point is, they do track it. I would hope they did so they know what to feature. And, if they start phasing out content, what people aren't watching/"wouldn't miss."
screech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 07:29 PM   #27
Ol Dirty Dastard
boop/bop/beep
 
Ol Dirty Dastard's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,453
Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
3 hours straight of Roman Reigns saying "Son"
Ol Dirty Dastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 08:28 PM   #28
Ol Dirty Dastard
boop/bop/beep
 
Ol Dirty Dastard's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,453
Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
They aren't a sports team, they're a sports entertainment organization, slapdick
Ol Dirty Dastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 08:46 PM   #29
#1-norm-fan
Resident drug enabler
 
#1-norm-fan's Avatar
 
Posts: 45,473
#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Walking Dead could drop off the face of the earth in the ratings this year and the fact that it went up EVERY YEAR IN THE PREVIOUS 5 YEARS WHILE RAW WENT DOWN makes "TV ratings have been down across the board" as an excuse DEMONSTRABLY WRONG. How hard is this? Good God.

But of course what do demonstrable facts matter when you seem to have no shame when it comes to awkwardly ignoring them for the world to see.
#1-norm-fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2016, 09:56 AM   #30
The CyNick
Make the IWC Great Again
 
The CyNick's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,922
The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Walking Dead could drop off the face of the earth in the ratings this year and the fact that it went up EVERY YEAR IN THE PREVIOUS 5 YEARS WHILE RAW WENT DOWN makes "TV ratings have been down across the board" as an excuse DEMONSTRABLY WRONG. How hard is this? Good God.

But of course what do demonstrable facts matter when you seem to have no shame when it comes to awkwardly ignoring them for the world to see.
So you think it makes sense to compare the ratings pattern of a show that has been on for well over 20 years vs a show that has been on for not even 6? Cool.
The CyNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2016, 01:56 PM   #31
BigCrippyZ
 
BigCrippyZ's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,033
BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
So you think it makes sense to compare the ratings pattern of a show that has been on for well over 20 years vs a show that has been on for not even 6? Cool.
Yes, it makes perfect sense, as a rebuttal to your (incorrect) argument that "television viewership is down across the board", as evidence that when you provide well written, compelling, entertaining television, viewership can be substantially higher (like Walking Dead's) than what Raw is averaging.
BigCrippyZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2016, 02:23 PM   #32
The CyNick
Make the IWC Great Again
 
The CyNick's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,922
The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
Yes, it makes perfect sense, as a rebuttal to your (incorrect) argument that "television viewership is down across the board", as evidence that when you provide well written, compelling, entertaining television, viewership can be substantially higher (like Walking Dead's) than what Raw is averaging.
Is your argument then that WWE is in the minority - programs that have declined in viewership over the past 12 months? Exceptions don't prove the rule. And best yet, Walking Dead is actually no exception, as I have illustrated.

Or are we only looking at shows that increased for 5 years and then declined? WWE likely fit that bill in the early 2000s. Want to bet if the excellently written Walking Dead lasts 15+ years after their peak like WWE has?

Shows that are the hot product are going to behave outside the norm. If you bother to read articles about the industry as a whole you will learn that TV numbers are down across the board. Doesn't mean you can't come up with the odd exception, but on the whole, the industry is trending down.
The CyNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2016, 03:04 PM   #33
BigCrippyZ
 
BigCrippyZ's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,033
BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Is your argument then that WWE is in the minority - programs that have declined in viewership over the past 12 months?
No, while Raw viewership has declined more so in the last 12 months, Raw viewership has actually been in decline for 10+ years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Shows that are the hot product are going to behave outside the norm. If you bother to read articles about the industry as a whole you will learn that TV numbers are down across the board. Doesn't mean you can't come up with the odd exception, but on the whole, the industry is trending down.
So WWE shouldn't be striving to continually be a hot product then? Obviously, you're going to have down periods and things that WWE can't control, don't work out, etc., but 10+ years of declining mediocrity is pathetic for a company and CEO that was so "innovative" in the prior 30+ years.
BigCrippyZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2016, 03:43 PM   #34
Big Vic
( ._.)
 
Big Vic's Avatar
 
Posts: 14,390
Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
I think its safe to say if raw had a better product it would attract more viewers.
Big Vic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2016, 04:05 PM   #35
BigCrippyZ
 
BigCrippyZ's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,033
BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
I think its safe to say if raw had a better product it would attract more viewers.
No. Not according to CyNick, who knows all.
BigCrippyZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2016, 04:51 PM   #36
The CyNick
Make the IWC Great Again
 
The CyNick's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,922
The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)
If Walking Dead went down to 5 million viewers per week, and then slowly declined to 4 million over the next 10 years nobody would call the show a failure. Especially if they did episodes 52 weeks a year.

WWE has been consistently #1 in their timeslot for the better part of 15 years. Only people in the IWC would see that as failure.
The CyNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2016, 04:55 PM   #37
The CyNick
Make the IWC Great Again
 
The CyNick's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,922
The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)The CyNick is good (20,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
I think its safe to say if raw had a better product it would attract more viewers.
It might. But I would say the product has had ups and downs since ratings have been in decline. Most shows on TV have a core audience and then fringe people that come in and out. Walking Dead even has that. Some episodes do 16-17 million others do 12 million. That's a wide range.

I think at some point the casual fans just grow tired of a concept and move on to the next hot thing. I would concur WWE isn't hot with casual fans, but the hardcore fans are more engaged than ever. Except for Big Vic, he stopped watching.
Last edited by The CyNick; 03-29-2016 at 05:44 PM.
The CyNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2016, 04:57 PM   #38
Big Vic
( ._.)
 
Big Vic's Avatar
 
Posts: 14,390
Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Big Vic makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
I was a hardcore fan and stopped watching.
Big Vic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2016, 06:17 PM   #39
BigCrippyZ
 
BigCrippyZ's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,033
BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
I was a hardcore fan and stopped watching.
Same.
BigCrippyZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2016, 07:02 PM   #40
Mr. Nerfect
 
Posts: 61,634
Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Yeah, I haven't even been able to ironically drunk-watch RAW these past two weeks. I listen to The LAW Review of it instead. It took me a while to get into their jam, but their reviews are hilarious. I actually spend an hour and a half listening to these guys talk about the three hour show. Maybe if it were good I'd watch again?
Mr. Nerfect is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 22 of 24 « First 12131415161718192021 22 2324

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:47 PM.

Forums Home - TPWW - Archive - Top

Powered by vBulletin®