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Old 01-06-2011, 10:44 AM   #1001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi View Post
Well, except for that one year where he unanimously won the MVP award, the other seasons where he finished top 5, and several other seasons where statistically speaking he clearly should have but was penalized by voters for playing on a bad team.

Other than that, though, never.
Yes, because MVP = Best player in the league.

I can name 15 players that are better than Joey Votto right now in the MLB.

And that includes pitchers. FYI.

Bags was never one of the top 5 players in his era.

Griffey, Bonds, Johnson, Clemens, Gwynn, etc etc

Name a year in his career and I can tell you at least 5 better players at that point in time.
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Old 01-06-2011, 02:39 PM   #1002
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Joey Votto oozes class and sex appeal. That makes him better than everyone in the league.
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Old 01-06-2011, 02:48 PM   #1003
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Right, except that's not what you said initially at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanso View Post
Bagwell was never even one of the 5 best players in the league at any point in his career.
1994 was a point in Bagwell's career. It could be rationally argued that Greg Maddux was better in 1994 than Jeff Bagwell, though since that was an unusually strong pitching season, Bagwell's numbers produce a higher WAR and WARP. Aside from Maddux, no one else came close. That's it.

1997 was a point in Bagwell's career. In that year, he was by all overall statistial measures the fifth best player in all of baseball. In 1999, only Pedro, Pudge and Chipper beat out Bagwell, and Pudge only does once his position is factored in. 2000-1 are another two years where most statistical measures place him in the top 5.

Again, by quite literally every reputable source and account, the ONLY more productive offensive player than Bagwell over the course of Bagwell's entire career was Barry Bonds. I'd go so far as to add Greg Maddux to the list on the pitching side, effectively making Jeff Bagwell the third best player in all of baseball from 1991 to 2005. Other than that, you're looking at a ton of pitchers who had peaks and valleys during Jeff's career, and a bunch of offensive players whose offensive output he simply dwarfed from '91-'05. Thomas would be his only other real competition in that regard had his peak and subsequent decline not occurred so early on.
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Old 01-06-2011, 05:20 PM   #1004
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World Series Hero Edgar Renteria ends up with the Reds. Looking like a 1-year, $3 mil. deal loaded with incentives.
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Old 01-06-2011, 05:28 PM   #1005
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come on guys, Koko B Ware is in the Hall for god sakes
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Old 01-06-2011, 07:19 PM   #1006
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:38 AM   #1007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanso View Post
Yes, because MVP = Best player in the league.

I can name 15 players that are better than Joey Votto right now in the MLB.

And that includes pitchers. FYI.

Bags was never one of the top 5 players in his era.

Griffey, Bonds, Johnson, Clemens, Gwynn, etc etc

Name a year in his career and I can tell you at least 5 better players at that point in time.
It's not about being one of the best players in the game, or all that.

The letters MVP stand for MOST VALUABLE PLAYER.

Valuable to who?

To the team that player plays for.

So in terms of MVP, Joey Votto was the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER to the Cincinnati Reds, a team that had been a losing franchise for some time, until last year.

Just because you win the MVP, doesn't necessarily mean you are one of the Top 5 players in the game...and just because you are one of the Top 5 players in the game, doesn't necessarily mean you should be MVP.

How many MVP awards did Hank Aaron win? One. Yet he was the first guy to break Babe Ruth's all time Home Run mark (Ruth also won one MVP award).

Yet guys like Jimmy Rollins, Terry Pendleton, Jeff Kent and Willie McGee have also won MVP awards, yet they never were "Top 5 players" when they won the award. They just were the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER to their team.
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Old 01-07-2011, 10:10 AM   #1008
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I think that's what Hanso is saying though.
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Old 01-07-2011, 11:37 AM   #1009
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Looks like the Cubs are gonna get Big Game Garza from the Rays. Cubs are probably gonna send Chris Archer, Hak-Ju Lee, Brandon Guyer, and Robinson Chirinos. Not finalized yet, but it looks like it's gonna happen.

Brian Bannister is taking his talents to Japan. Signed a deal with the Tokyo Giants.

Finally, Carl Pavano might be going back to Minnesota for 2 more years.
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Old 01-07-2011, 12:01 PM   #1010
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Really don't understand what the Rays are doing. They knew they would lose Crawford, and losing Pena and his sub-Mendoza line BA isn't that big of a deal. But then they traded Bartlett and Garza and don't seem to be making any sort of play to get Soriano back, or even a guy like Balfour. They HAVE been interested in Fuentes but it doesn't sound like they'll be willing to spend enough to land him.

It's like they're conceeding that winning the division is going to be too hard now with the Red Sox' acquisitions. I know fans never show up for their games but how can they be so strapped for cash that they need to have a fire sale when they still had a team that could contend?

If anything, keep Garza until the deadline and at least make it look like you care about this season.
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Old 01-07-2011, 12:54 PM   #1011
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Looking at where the Cubs prospects ranked in their system the Rays seem to be getting a solid return for Garza though. Just makes their farm system even more ridiculous.

3 of the guys are in the Cubs top 10 prospects. They're ranked #3, #4, #8 and #15.

Definitely doesn't help their chances for next season but will help them to reload for another run when some of their big guys get to the majors again. Waiting to the deadline would have been smarter I would think though.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:11 PM   #1012
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You have Carlos Silva, Carlos Zambrano, Tom Gorzelanny, Randy Wells, Ryan Dempster, and now Matt Garza for a rotation.

Somebody other than Garza is getting bounced out. Either via trade or to the bullpen.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:22 PM   #1013
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The Rays had plenty of starters as well, so they're dealing from their strength. Price, Shields, Davis, Niemann, and Hellickson is still an impressive rotation.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:58 PM   #1014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockShot View Post
You have Carlos Silva, Carlos Zambrano, Tom Gorzelanny, Randy Wells, Ryan Dempster, and now Matt Garza for a rotation.

Somebody other than Garza is getting bounced out. Either via trade or to the bullpen.
I think it depends on who performs better in the Spring between Gorze and Silva. They had been trying to trade Gorze, but I don't think it'll happen and he ends up in the pen.

Pretty excited for Garza though.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:04 PM   #1015
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You also have to factor in Zambrano's yearly temper tantrum so it's good to have another option while he's being a big whiny bitch who doesn't deserve to wear a professional uniform.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:46 PM   #1016
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I hope his yearly temper tantrum this year involves a 95 mph fastball at the head of Joey Votto.
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:08 PM   #1017
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I love reading Keltner lists during HOF season. Really gives you good perspective on if a guy deserves the HOF.
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:55 PM   #1018
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The Rays are essentially rebuilding. Their GM even says they cannot sustain success on their budget, so their plans are to reload, rebuild, contend, rinse repeat. By Success I mean as a WOrld Series COntender. They lose their big names, now they are rebuilding for another run.
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:56 PM   #1019
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Quote:
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I think that's what Hanso is saying though.
LOL Exactly.

I am saying winning an MVP does not equate to being the best or even a great player - to dispute the claim that Bagwell is a First Ballot player by winning an MVP. So....

Basically Aquakate repeated exactly my point, to counteract my point....
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Old 01-07-2011, 05:20 PM   #1020
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The Rays used to be a $15-$20 million per year payroll team before becoming decent so it sort of makes sense why the GM or owner can't sustain long-term funding. The fanbase isn't strong enough in both revenue and interest to sustain an expensive team which probably means they don't get much in tv revenue either.

The 2010 payroll was $71 million so the team itself jumped a good $40-$50 million the last couple of years just to compete in the AL East and their youth playing great.

It won't take another 12 years to rebuild but at the same time they will be competing with the Orioles as the next team to rebound in the division unlike before when it was just the Rays alone.
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:54 PM   #1021
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It looks like Soriano really wants to play for the Yankees. He is willing to be the 8th inning guy and that's the only team that he wouldn't mind being the 8th inning guy. But, it looks like it won't happen because they don't want to lose a pick for him.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:51 PM   #1022
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Classic Yankees. Won't go after a big name at the expense of their farm system.
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Old 01-08-2011, 05:42 PM   #1023
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Classic Yankees. Won't go after a big name at the expense of their farm system.
I can kinda understand their reasoning a little bit. If they were saying this for Lee I would be pissed as hell. But, they do have some options for 8th inning guy. And besides with the way our offseason is going I would much rather use whatever farm resources we have for a starter or 2 at the deadline not for a 8th inning guy.

Do you know what type of free agent Andruw Jones is? Is he A or B?
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:31 PM   #1024
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Half the people in Chicago are crying because the Cubs got Matt Garza. Crying in anger because they traded 3 of their top 10 prospects.

As a Cub fan, I'm happy with the trade. Most of the Cubs prospects end up sucking anyway.

Cubs fans like to complain, whether it be something good or bad, we always find something to complain about.
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:47 PM   #1025
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Quote:
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Half the people in Chicago are crying because the Cubs got Matt Garza. Crying in anger because they traded 3 of their top 10 prospects.

As a Cub fan, I'm happy with the trade. Most of the Cubs prospects end up sucking anyway.

Cubs fans like to complain, whether it be something good or bad, we always find something to complain about.
We'll see what they are like once they win a World Series. They have a lot to complain about. I feel kinda sorry for the Cubs and the fans.
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:01 PM   #1026
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We won't see what its like to win a World Series...because they won't.

I'd like to see maybe another move by the Cubs this offseason...a second baseman maybe. Don't know who is available.
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:07 PM   #1027
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Originally Posted by Hardkore Kidd J View Post
Do you know what type of free agent Andruw Jones is? Is he A or B?
Andrew Jones hasn't been a type A free agent for quite a few years now, and if memory serves, he doesn't even qualify as a type B.

EDIT - just checked; he's neither. He'd cost the Yankees (or whomever) no compensation.
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:09 PM   #1028
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Just a valuable roster spot
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:16 PM   #1029
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It's funny because it's true.
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:17 AM   #1030
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Originally Posted by Triple Naitch View Post
The Rays had plenty of starters as well, so they're dealing from their strength. Price, Shields, Davis, Niemann, and Hellickson is still an impressive rotation.
Yup,
Problem is people don't know thesse names yet and think the Rays now have no pitching. They have pitching. If the Yankees or Red Sox have an off season the Rays will be a strong wild Card contender.
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:34 AM   #1031
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People wanted Hellickson to get a start last postseason. Kid is good.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:17 AM   #1032
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I gotta say Tampa really scares me . With all this young pitching Tampa will be good for years to come. That's kinda why I don't want the Yankees to give away a great package for some great guy at the trade deadline. I want the Yankees to be filled with a bunch of young pitchers as well.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:41 AM   #1033
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Let the record show that Hardkore Kidd J just said he wants the Yankees to be more like the Devil Rays.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:51 AM   #1034
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Let the record show that Hardkore Kidd J just said he wants the Yankees to be more like the Devil Rays.
I have never thought about that. But, you gotta admit it is sometimes a good strategy to have a lot of young pitchers on your team. It really does depend on how good the young pitcher/player is . Truth be told I think home grown talent is better sometimes.

I never really meant it that I want to be more like the Rays. I just think it's better sometimes to have a bunch of young promising players.

I think the Rays are gonna strike it big with this Chris Archer kid. I see big things from him.
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:20 PM   #1035
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CarGo signed his contract today
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:21 PM   #1036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glanville6 View Post
Half the people in Chicago are crying because the Cubs got Matt Garza. Crying in anger because they traded 3 of their top 10 prospects.

As a Cub fan, I'm happy with the trade. Most of the Cubs prospects end up sucking anyway.

Cubs fans like to complain, whether it be something good or bad, we always find something to complain about.
Cubs fans are funny. They complained when the Cubs traded DeRosa to Cleveland and got nothing in return (Chris Archer). Now they trade Archer for Garza and they treat him like he's the second coming. I doubt any of the other guys (save Lee, maybe) would have had an impact on the Cubs future. IT's not like they dont have a good catcher in Soto and aren't locked up in the outfield with big contracts into eternity.
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:48 AM   #1037
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Brad Penny to the Tigers. 1-year, $3 mil.
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Old 01-11-2011, 12:01 PM   #1038
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Confusing decision there at best. That whole "let's go sign a make-good contract with an American League team" approach didn't exactly go so well for Brad Penny last time around.
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Old 01-11-2011, 04:39 PM   #1039
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Splaya got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Splaya got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Splaya got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Splaya got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Splaya got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Splaya got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Splaya got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Splaya got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Splaya got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Splaya got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Splaya got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Splaya got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
Great deal for the Tigers
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:12 PM   #1040
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So, we're in mid-January. How would you grade your favortie team's offseasons?

Despite the relative lack of moves, I'm actually giving the Mets a solid B so far. They've stuck to the plan in not overpaying for players. If Omar was still in office, he probably would have handed out a regrettable 3 or 4 year deal. They got a new front office, new manager, haven't given out any multiyear deals except a 2-year deal for DJ Carrasco which is for basically no money. All of their acquisitions thus far can fill a need in the Opening Day roster, including both of their Rule 5 picks. I like it.

I'm certain they'll add an extra starter before the season begins (hopefully Chris Young) and possibly a lefty reliever (Beimel?) although Feliciano, Choate, and Ohman's deals kinda fucked up the market. A veteran reserve outfielder is also possible, but really not necessary. Nick Evans and Jason Pridie are probably serviceable enough.

Plus, as far as I'm concerned - the offseason isn't over until that Opening Day roster is set. There's a very good chance that Oliver Perez and Luis Castillo are getting released on cut down day, which automatically adds at least half a letter grade.
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