UFC 112 Discussion

[Reavant]

Originally Posted by KillerWolf This is what Dana White and the UFC should be appologizing for: UFC 112 in general. i mean, it was a shitty card. and they've been putting on a lot of shitty fight cards lately. a lot of people will say, "yeah, well, they're following a business model that calls for them to pump out as many PPVs as possible." that really shouldnt make you happy. that's like judging the merits of a motion picture by how well it does at the box office. they do more than one PPV per month. instead of 1 great card in the month of May, we get two mediocre to pretty good cards. and on and on it goes like this. the fight cards are getting to be pretty damned watered down IMO. congradulations to the UFC for the fact that they can put out such a big number of events, but personally, i'd be happier with half the number of PPVs.

shut up. hindsight is 20-20. What classifys as a "good" card for you? Who do you want on these great cards?


This drives me nuts when people say this shit. Im assuming you want less ppv's so that you can get these "stacked" cards where we have all the stars fighting at the same time. (which i know your going to say thats not the case but based on your gripe is the only solution)

Heres what would happen if they did what you wanted.... There would be no stage for upcoming talent. No coming out parties like jon jones vs stephon bonnar, or dos santos vs werdum.

With no way for the public to get behind these new rising stars because the ppv slots are reserved for the current stars, the star power will fade because the same sets of guys fighting on these cards will be beating eachother with no influx of newer talent.

Then again I could assume that your so pissed with these last two cards because the fights didnt turn out the way you wanted. Lets look at the results... ufc 111, GSP and fitch win by decisions and in ufc 112 frankie and silva did the same. So im assuming you dont like decisions considering 3 of those were 25 minute ones. OKAY...


First, Those fights that people said sucked were TITLE FIGHTS!!! I dont know if you figured this out but when theres a title fight, you can pretty much bet there is some star power in the fight JUST SAYING. By the way there were two title fights at ufc 112.
So the UFC delivered on quality fighters by the mere inclusion of title holders... and i assume you knew this yet your still bitching and blaming the ufc for a watered down card that has two title fights...

Second, the ufc cant control what happens in the fight. whether theres 20 cards a year or 2, GSP would have still smothered hardy, BJ would have still been out pointed by edgar, and silva would have still tripped on acid.

Third, in the last two ppv's carwin nearly killed mir, munoz had an awesome come from behind victory, phil davis had one of the coolest looking anaconda chokes ever seen, and dos anjos had a masterful ground performance. Whats weird is outside of carwin and mir, none of the other fighters were big name guys

GTFO with that shit

[KillerWolf]

[QUOTE=Reavant;3024741]

shut up. hindsight is 20-20.

then i must be clairvoyant, because IMO Silva v. Maia was pretty ill-concieved from the begining.

This drives me nuts when people say this shit. Im assuming you want less ppv's so that you can get these "stacked" cards where we have all the stars fighting at the same time. (which i know your going to say thats not the case but based on your gripe is the only solution)

you KNOW absolutely nothing. stacked cards is exactly what i want. especially at $55 a pop. and, btw, two years ago, they were putting on better cards.

Heres what would happen if they did what you wanted.... There would be no stage for upcoming talent. No coming out parties like jon jones vs stephon bonnar, or dos santos vs werdum. With no way for the public to get behind these new rising stars because the ppv slots are reserved for the current stars, the star power will fade because the same sets of guys fighting on these cards will be beating eachother with no influx of newer talent.

good news and bad news. the good news is that i am wrong and you are absolutely correct, as always. the bad news is that you are only correct if you live in some fantasy world where Spike TV does not exist, and there is no such thing as UFC Fight Night, or UFC on VS.

Then again I could assume that your so pissed with these last two cards because the fights didnt turn out the way you wanted. Lets look at the results... ufc 111, GSP and fitch win by decisions and in ufc 112 frankie and silva did the same. So im assuming you dont like decisions considering 3 of those were 25 minute ones. OKAY...

you make a lot of assumptions.

First, Those fights that people said sucked were TITLE FIGHTS!!! I dont know if you figured this out but when theres a title fight, you can pretty much bet there is some star power in the fight JUST SAYING. By the way there were two title fights at ufc 112. So the UFC delivered on quality fighters by the mere inclusion of title holders... and i assume you knew this yet your still bitching and blaming the ufc for a watered down card that has two title fights... Second, the ufc cant control what happens in the fight. whether theres 20 cards a year or 2, GSP would have still smothered hardy, BJ would have still been out pointed by edgar, and silva would have still tripped on acid. Third, in the last two ppv's carwin nearly killed mir, munoz had an awesome come from behind victory, phil davis had one of the coolest looking anaconda chokes ever seen, and dos anjos had a masterful ground performance. Whats weird is outside of carwin and mir, none of the other fighters were big name guys GTFO with that shit

okay...how to respond to all of this? okay, check this out, dude: i could care less about how many title fights are on a card. i'm talking about stacking the undercards more. i rarely buy a PPV just for the main event. Silva v. Maia was not a fight i wanted to see because there wasnt much question about the outcome. i didnt really give Edgar much of a shot against Penn either, though. the GSP/Hardy fight went down pretty much exactly how i expected it to go down (so, i didnt pay money for either of the last two PPVs.) i figure that's par for the course when you have dominant champions like Penn, GSP, and Silva, who seem to outclass everyone else in their division. THEREFORE, THEY NEED TO STACK THE UNDERCARDS MORE.

oh, and it drives you crazy when people say this type of shit? ya know, wishing for fewer, higher quality PPVs isnt being a dick. i'm just standing up for my rights as a consumer...and as a fan. but you wanna come off like anyone who complains just doesnt know what the fuck they're talking about, and the UFC has never put on a shit PPV. YOU need to GTFO with THAT shit.

[Impact!]

What are you on about? The undercards for the last two PPV's have been solid.

[Reavant]

Originally Posted by KillerWolf okay...how to respond to all of this? okay, check this out, dude: i could care less about how many title fights are on a card. i'm talking about stacking the undercards more. i rarely buy a PPV just for the main event. Silva v. Maia was not a fight i wanted to see because there wasnt much question about the outcome. i didnt really give Edgar much of a shot against Penn either, though. the GSP/Hardy fight went down pretty much exactly how i expected it to go down (so, i didnt pay money for either of the last two PPVs.) i figure that's par for the course when you have dominant champions like Penn, GSP, and Silva, who seem to outclass everyone else in their division.

you are so full of shit with this its unreal

Originally Posted by KillerWolf THEREFORE, THEY NEED TO STACK THE UNDERCARDS MORE. oh, and it drives you crazy when people say this type of shit? ya know, wishing for fewer, higher quality PPVs isnt being a dick. i'm just standing up for my rights as a consumer...and as a fan. but you wanna come off like anyone who complains just doesnt know what the fuck they're talking about, and the UFC has never put on a shit PPV. YOU need to GTFO with THAT shit.

The undercards were good! lets look at the last one... you had munoz who was an ncaa champ wrestler vs grove who was a TUF champion. You had two fast rising, undefeated light heavyweights in phil davis and gustafsson. you had a guy with a lot of momentum on a winning streak in Etim get upset and finished by dos anjos. And finally you had a former welterweight champion vs a gracie (now granted that fight letf much to be desired, but NO ONE even YOU would have thought MATT HUGHES would turn a fight into a kickboxing match. again the 20/20 thing) .... you bitching about that undercard is being a dick

You know what, how about you tell me a card you though was unreal or that had a stacked undercard by your rational.

[Reavant]

[QUOTE=KillerWolf;3025358]

Originally Posted by Reavant good news and bad news. the good news is that i am wrong and you are absolutely correct, as always. the bad news is that you are only correct if you live in some fantasy world where Spike TV does not exist, and there is no such thing as UFC Fight Night, or UFC on VS.

First of all, not that many people watch the ufc fight nights considering the marketing for them is not as strong as a ppv, and the fact that only rarely is there a stellar main event is put on them.

I can see you dont know how it works so ill explain it to you... unknown guys fight on these, rattle off a win or two and then get a shot on the bigger stage on a ppv broadcast where everyone has to see them because they all tuned in to see the heavily advertised main event.

Second, with all the slots on a ppv taken up by current stars, there would be no proving ground on a ppv card for rising guys to perform. Ppv events are in bigger arenas and have bigger crowds. It is a completely different environment than a fight night.

[Krimzon7]

The last two cards were entertaining to me. I can't understand the problem. I saw solid knockouts, submissions, and great fights that went the distance. I don't always WANT to see 'stars'. I want to see great fights. And the UFC gives you a chance to see both. I am looking forward to seeing Kimbo (I'm a whore, I KNOW), but I want to see Ryan Bader on a card too and Bones Jones, and the new kids more than I want to see GSP.

[KillerWolf]

[QUOTE=Reavant;3025657]

you are so full of shit with this its unreal

explain. no? i didnt think so.

The undercards were good! lets look at the last one... you had munoz who was an ncaa champ wrestler vs grove who was a TUF champion. You had two fast rising, undefeated light heavyweights in phil davis and gustafsson. you had a guy with a lot of momentum on a winning streak in Etim get upset and finished by dos anjos. And finally you had a former welterweight champion vs a gracie (now granted that fight letf much to be desired, but NO ONE even YOU would have thought MATT HUGHES would turn a fight into a kickboxing match. again the 20/20 thing) .... you bitching about that undercard is being a dick

a lot of the time (most of the time) the undercards turn out to be more entertaining than the main events (as in the best fight of the night ends up being on the undercard.) but a lot of the time, when i look at the undercard, i have never even heard of half the people on it. that makes it very hard for me to say, "yes, that's a fight i want to see, or, yes, these are fights i will pay $55 to watch." why this logic makes no sense to you is beyond me. i'm sorry.

You know what, how about you tell me a card you though was unreal or that had a stacked undercard by your rational.

okay, i'll do that, but let me at least put some thought into it instead of just pulling some fight card outta my ass (as the UFC has appeared to do lately).

[Krimzon7]

Wolf, I get where your'e coming from. Most people equate 'I will pay $55 to watch _____' and ____ beter be somebody I know. Honestly, I am a fan of fighting, and I could care less who does it, as long as they can teach me something new, or show me someting sick. I think that Dana, and the UFC bank on a few stars to pull your train of thought in, while he gets the other people to pull my train of thought in.

AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BOTH.

You cant make everyone happy.

Personally I'd be bored to death with a bunch of stacked fighters on a card, because sometimes those assholes tend to fight to keep a title, or to perserve a reputation.

[Reavant]

Originally Posted by KillerWolf a lot of the time (most of the time) the undercards turn out to be more entertaining than the main events (as in the best fight of the night ends up being on the undercard.) but a lot of the time, when i look at the undercard, i have never even heard of half the people on it. that makes it very hard for me to say, "yes, that's a fight i want to see, or, yes, these are fights i will pay $55 to watch." why this logic makes no sense to you is beyond me. i'm sorry.

Do you not see how you completely contradicted yourself in this statement????

THEYRE THE FUCKING UNDERCARD!!! theyre not supposed to be the guys your tuning in exclusively to see. Thats why on the countdown shows and tv commercials, you only hear about the main and co-main events. Stop being such an ignorant snob.

[Reavant]

Originally Posted by Krimzon7 Wolf, I get where your'e coming from. Most people equate 'I will pay $55 to watch _____' and ____ beter be somebody I know. Honestly, I am a fan of fighting, and I could care less who does it, as long as they can teach me something new, or show me someting sick. I think that Dana, and the UFC bank on a few stars to pull your train of thought in, while he gets the other people to pull my train of thought in. AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BOTH. You cant make everyone happy. Personally I'd be bored to death with a bunch of stacked fighters on a card, because sometimes those assholes tend to fight to keep a title, or to perserve a reputation.

EXACTLY....


Oh and by the way, had BJ finished edgar or Silva knocked maia's head off, no one would have said the card or fights sucked regardless of how the undercard went. Silva's performance alone killed that entire card.

[KillerWolf]

[QUOTE=Reavant;3025666][QUOTE=KillerWolf;3025358]

First of all, not that many people watch the ufc fight nights considering the marketing for them is not as strong as a ppv, and the fact that only rarely is there a stellar main event is put on them.



pfff. you say I'M full of shit?!?

1. fans of MMA and of the UFC watch the live Fight Nights. it's the same people who buy the PPVs, and probably more, because it's FREE. the marketing doesnt need to be as strong because it's FREE. soccer moms and other douche bags who are not interested in MMA are not buying PPVs because of the persuasive marketing campaign.

2. stellar main event on a UFC Fight Night? maybe not, but more times than not, the cards have been generally more entertaining than a PPV card. and, even though the main events on those cards may not be for a title, they are usually fights that i find interesting.

I can see you dont know how it works so ill explain it to you... unknown guys fight on these, rattle off a win or two and then get a shot on the bigger stage on a ppv broadcast where everyone has to see them because they all tuned in to see the heavily advertised main event.

that's exactly how it should work. what i'm telling you is that a lot of the time, i've never seen some of the undercard guys on TV anywhere. it could be that i'm mistaken or i saw them get a win and they just didnt make an impression on me, but most of the guys who i work out with have never heard of them either - and i'm talking about a group of people with a solid interest in MMA. we're more than just casual fans.

secondly, what you're saying is part of what i'm complaining about. a $55 PPV, number 1, shouldn't come around every two or three weeks, and, number 2, shouldn't consist of a mainstream main event and a bunch of random filler.

Second, with all the slots on a ppv taken up by current stars, there would be no proving ground on a ppv card for rising guys to perform. Ppv events are in bigger arenas and have bigger crowds. It is a completely different environment than a fight night.

people like "Bones" Jones and Bader are already proven. thoses two guys, especially Jones, already have my interest. the proving ground should be the free events. and i'm not saying that they can't have one or two unknowns or little knowns on a PPV. but, if they pumped out the free events at even half the rate that they pump out these PPVs, those little known guys would be ready to help carry a PPV in no time at all.

[Krimzon7]

Originally Posted by Reavant EXACTLY.... Oh and by the way, had BJ finished edgar or Silva knocked maia's head off, no one would have said the card or fights sucked regardless of how the undercard went. Silva's performance alone killed that entire card.

Bingo! I couldn't knock the card, cause it was entertaining. Those fighters went to Abu Dhabi and put on a show.....all but one . The fact that Silva laid an egg and it threw the entire card into the shitter, is an interesting statement.

One could argue that this is why people shouldn't be banking on ONE star to sell a ppv, as much as that they hsould be selling the experience of every fight being exciting.

Those people may not have much business sense though!

[KillerWolf]

yes. you (both) have a point about that. that less people would be complaining if Anderson Silva hadnt made such a mockery of things. but that isnt necessarily the case with me. my original point was that the UFC should be appologizing for the fight card and similar fight cards in general, not for Anderson Silva's behavior. before this whole fight card went down, i had already determined that i would not be paying money for it because nothing on the fight card captured my interest.

and, what youre saying is what i'm saying. UFC shouldnt (morally) be banking on one star to sell a PPV or even on one fight, but that is what they seem to be leaning towards lately. and, no, i probably dont have much business sense. but that doesnt make me an asshole for wanting pure coke instead of the shit that's been stepped on so that the supplier makes more money...if you know what i mean.

[KillerWolf]

Originally Posted by Reavant Do you not see how you completely contradicted yourself in this statement???? THEYRE THE FUCKING UNDERCARD!!! theyre not supposed to be the guys your tuning in exclusively to see. Thats why on the countdown shows and tv commercials, you only hear about the main and co-main events. Stop being such an ignorant snob.

no i didnt contradict myself at all. what i'm saying is that i have to lay my money down BEFORE i see the fights. if i dont know who half the people are, it makes it hard to bank on them being good fights.

[Impact!]

my original point was that the UFC should be appologizing for the fight card and similar fight cards in general,

Once again, what are you on about. The last few cards have been great.

In fact, I can't think of 1 recent card that has been bad.

[Krimzon7]

Originally Posted by KillerWolf yes. you (both) have a point about that. that less people would be complaining if Anderson Silva hadnt made such a mockery of things. but that isnt necessarily the case with me. my original point was that the UFC should be appologizing for the fight card and similar fight cards in general, not for Anderson Silva's behavior. before this whole fight card went down, i had already determined that i would not be paying money for it because nothing on the fight card captured my interest. and, what youre saying is what i'm saying. UFC shouldnt (morally) be banking on one star to sell a PPV or even on one fight, but that is what they seem to be leaning towards lately. and, no, i probably dont have much business sense. but that doesnt make me an asshole for wanting pure coke instead of the shit that's been stepped on so that the supplier makes more money...if you know what i mean.

ALL I HEARD WAS COKE!!!!!

[Reavant]

Originally Posted by KillerWolf no i didnt contradict myself at all. what i'm saying is that i have to lay my money down BEFORE i see the fights. if i dont know who half the people are, it makes it hard to bank on them being good fights.

You are spewing complete nonsense considering people who are "big time" can fight terrible fights. but what examples could i possibly give...

[Reavant]

Originally Posted by KillerWolf pfff. you say I'M full of shit?!? 1. fans of MMA and of the UFC watch the live Fight Nights. it's the same people who buy the PPVs, and probably more, because it's FREE. the marketing doesnt need to be as strong because it's FREE. soccer moms and other douche bags who are not interested in MMA are not buying PPVs because of the persuasive marketing campaign.

Thank you for this really. you almost make it too easy... Just because it is easier to see doesnt mean that more people watch them. Fight nights are done in the middle of week generally, and outside of a big fan of fighting, the general public doesnt know theyre going on.

Also droves of people fill up sports bars and a buddies house to chip in on a fight on saturday nights. There isnt just hardcore fight fans at these either... husbands drag those soccer moms and friends drag those douche bags to these events. On top of that people who are not hardcore fans generally associate a night of fights with drinking as well and given the fact that most people work during the week... well you get the point.

Oh and good thing that the demographic for ufc isnt soccer moms

2. stellar main event on a UFC Fight Night? maybe not, but more times than not, the cards have been generally more entertaining than a PPV card. and, even though the main events on those cards may not be for a title, they are usually fights that i find interesting.

so basically your saying that these fight night cards with no name fighters have turned out more entertaining that the ppvs with big name guys, yet your bitching about ppv cards with no name guys on it

that's exactly how it should work. what i'm telling you is that a lot of the time, i've never seen some of the undercard guys on TV anywhere. it could be that i'm mistaken or i saw them get a win and they just didnt make an impression on me, but most of the guys who i work out with have never heard of them either - and i'm talking about a group of people with a solid interest in MMA. we're more than just casual fans.

secondly, what you're saying is part of what i'm complaining about. a $55 PPV, number 1, shouldn't come around every two or three weeks, and, number 2, shouldn't consist of a mainstream main event and a bunch of random filler.

then dont buy the damn cards you snob

people like "Bones" Jones and Bader are already proven. thoses two guys, especially Jones, already have my interest. the proving ground should be the free events. and i'm not saying that they can't have one or two unknowns or little knowns on a PPV. but, if they pumped out the free events at even half the rate that they pump out these PPVs, those little known guys would be ready to help carry a PPV in no time at all. [/QUOTE]

jones made his debut on ppv. everyone thought bonnar was going to kill him. without that fight we may not know who he is. Had he started out on fight nights, he wouldnt have risen as fast, and bader is a TUF winner so he earned his slot.

[KillerWolf]

dude, we're just talking in circles. Anderson Silva is "big time" and i dont think i've paid to see most of his title defenses. i dont buy a fight just for the main event. (are we clear on that? seriously, i need a yes or a no, because without you understanding that premis, we cannot continue this conversation)

if i look at an undercard, and i don't know who half of the fighters are, it becomes exceedingly difficult for me to say, "ooh, yeah! that should be a good fight. this is a solid card. i will buy this PPV." (now do you understand the logic behind that premis? if you don't then please just forget the whole thing. you've got the inside scoop, and i am just some child who doesnt know what he wants, and we'll just leave it at that. )

[Krimzon7]

WHAT ABOUT THE COKE!!!!!!! Don't forget that premise!

Seriously, The one thing that I feel UFC could use instead of all those fight replay shows on Spike is a weekly show highlighting/building the new stars. While the PPV builds are decent, how else will we get to know the new kids? I guess that is what the fight shows COULD do, but most of the time we're getting Young Rich Franklin vs. Jens Pulver, or whatever... Like why can't we get some more shine on the undercard/micard guys to help build their star power. Does this make any sense?



IT WOULD IF YOU WOULD COME OFF THAT COKE!

[KillerWolf]

Originally Posted by Krimzon7 WHAT ABOUT THE COKE!!!!!!! Don't forget that premise! Seriously, The one thing that I feel UFC could use instead of all those fight replay shows on Spike is a weekly show highlighting/building the new stars. While the PPV builds are decent, how else will we get to know the new kids? I guess that is what the fight shows COULD do, but most of the time we're getting Young Rich Franklin vs. Jens Pulver, or whatever... Like why can't we get some more shine on the undercard/micard guys to help build their star power. Does this make any sense? IT WOULD IF YOU WOULD COME OFF THAT COKE!

dude, i am almost POSITIVE that that's exactly what i've been saying: "build up the new guys on the free Spike TV (and now VS) cards, and stack the PPVs with known comodities."

[Krimzon7]

I am just as positive that I agreed with you a couple posts ago