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Old 12-03-2012, 02:47 AM   #81
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Yes.

Mark my words, CM Punk vs Daniel Bryan will headline WrestleMania at least once in the next few years. In the modern age, there isn't just 1 main event. There are usually 3 or even 4 maquee matches that could headline the show and each one appeals to a large section of the audience.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:47 AM   #82
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Your World Champions should be guys with crossover appeal. Benoit and Bryan have 0 of that.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:48 AM   #83
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The reason he's great right now is that no one is asking you to buy that he's on the same level as a John Cena. He's being put to good use in the mid-card as a comedy character who can put on a show in the ring. And they should keep it that way.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:50 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Yes.

Mark my words, CM Punk vs Daniel Bryan will headline WrestleMania at least once in the next few years. In the modern age, there isn't just 1 main event. There are usually 3 or even 4 maquee matches that could headline the show and each one appeals to a large section of the audience.
I didn't say main event. I said headline. As in close out the show.

There aren't usually 3 or 4 marquee matches that could close out the show. Last year they called Sheamus vs Bryan and Punk vs Jericho "main events". It's a cheap way of saying "Hey, this guy was in the main event of WrestleMania". Rock vs Cena was the main event and there was no way anything else was going to come close to ousting it.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:51 AM   #85
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Your World Champions should be guys with crossover appeal. Benoit and Bryan have 0 of that.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:51 AM   #86
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World Champions don't have to be your "top marketable star" anymore. The money is made when your marquee top star is chasing the belt. They have 2 world titles and can take risks with guys who will deliver great matches and can connect with the crowd.

Benoit had crossover appeal. A lot of people identified with a guy who was intense and just went to work and kicked ass.

Daniel Bryan has huge crossover appeal to sections of the WWE audience that have never been catered to. Daniel Bryan has done more media appearances for groups like PETA and other PR groups that have never associated with WWE.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:54 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
I didn't say main event. I said headline. As in close out the show.

There aren't usually 3 or 4 marquee matches that could close out the show. Last year they called Sheamus vs Bryan and Punk vs Jericho "main events". It's a cheap way of saying "Hey, this guy was in the main event of WrestleMania". Rock vs Cena was the main event and there was no way anything else was going to come close to ousting it.
WrestleMania 27: Cena/Miz, Taker/HHH, Edge/Del Rio
WrestleMania 26: Cena/Batista, HBK/Taker, Jericho/Edge, McMahon/Hart
WrestleMania 25: HBK/Taker, HHH/Orton, Cena/Edge/Big Show
WrestleMana 24: HBK/Flair, HHH/Orton/Cena, Edge/Taker
WrestleMania 23: HBK/Cena, Batista/Undertaker

You pick 1 WM in which they booked the main event a year in advance with the return of one of the most popular stars of all time. The past 5-6 years, they have had WMs with multiple matches that could have gone on last.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:55 AM   #88
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World Champions don't have to be your "top marketable star" anymore.
And this is why the titles mean significantly less and don't draw on their own like they used to. Holding it doesn't mean you're worth jack shit. It means they're trying something out to see what sticks.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:56 AM   #89
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And Benoit had no crossover appeal. That's insane. lol
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:56 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
And this is why the titles mean significantly less and don't draw on their own like they used to. Holding it doesn't mean you're worth jack shit. It means they're trying something out to see what sticks.
Is it not smart business to make it where your top draw doesn't have to be in the middle of the title hunt and you can use those titles to build up new stars? I'd argue the titles mean more now than they have in ages in spite of them not necessarily being the true "main event".
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:59 AM   #91
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Quote:
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WrestleMania 27: Cena/Miz, Taker/HHH, Edge/Del Rio
WrestleMania 26: Cena/Batista, HBK/Taker, Jericho/Edge, McMahon/Hart
WrestleMania 25: HBK/Taker, HHH/Orton, Cena/Edge/Big Show
WrestleMana 24: HBK/Flair, HHH/Orton/Cena, Edge/Taker
WrestleMania 23: HBK/Cena, Batista/Undertaker

You pick 1 WM in which they booked the main event a year in advance with the return of one of the most popular stars of all time. The past 5-6 years, they have had WMs with multiple matches that could have gone on last.
Some of those had multiple matches that could go on last. In those cases, calling multiple matches the main event is justified. There was NO WAY some of those matches were gonna go on last though and thus calling them a "main event" when they're so clearly below the REAL main event/s is stupid.

Edge vs Del Rio? lol Did you really go into that WrestleMania thinking there was a genuine chance the show would close out with Edge vs Del Rio for Smackdown's WHC???
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:04 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Some of those had multiple matches that could go on last. In those cases, calling multiple matches the main event is justified. There was NO WAY some of those matches were gonna go on last though and thus calling them a "main event" when they're so clearly below the REAL main event/s is stupid.

Edge vs Del Rio? lol Did you really go into that WrestleMania thinking there was a genuine chance the show would close out with Edge vs Del Rio for Smackdown's WHC???
Did you think Edge/Taker would go on last over HHH/Orton/Cena or HBK/Flair? Did you think HBK/Taker would go on last over Cena/Batista?
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:05 AM   #93
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Quote:
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Is it not smart business to make it where your top draw doesn't have to be in the middle of the title hunt and you can use those titles to build up new stars?
Yes. Because it brings the title down to their level, it doesn't bring them up because they hold a title that's been tossed around to random guys to "see what sticks". Do you think when Hogan was the top draw, the title would have meant as much if Paul Orndorff and Lanny Poffo were holding it?

When Austin was the top draw, do you think the title would have lost it's value if Goldust and The British Bulldog were trading off the title back and forth on PPV while Austin was doing more important stuff higher up on the card?
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:06 AM   #94
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Did you think Edge/Taker would go on last over HHH/Orton/Cena or HBK/Flair? Did you think HBK/Taker would go on last over Cena/Batista?
Yeah

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Some of those had multiple matches that could go on last. In those cases, calling multiple matches the main event is justified.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:08 AM   #95
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The business is different now. Championships are important, but they don't alone determine who is "most over" or "most popular". CM Punk took almost a year before he was main eventing PPVs. Are Sheamus and CM Punk not over? Is Big Show not over as a heel right now?
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:09 AM   #96
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Edge/Del Rio was not a main event by any standard other than "Hey, let's call it a main event so we can say 'these guys main evented WrestleMania'"
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:17 AM   #97
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It was a World title match that headlined SmackDown! It was the highest profile SmackDown! match, but only the 3rd match on the show. It was still a main event. You can nitpick all you want, but the business has evolved and WrestleMania is nothing like a traditional wrestling show anymore.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:19 AM   #98
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So was Daniel Bryan vs Sheamus. How seriously did they take that as a "WrestleMania main event"?
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:21 AM   #99
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They hyped the fuck out of it and it was the high-profile match for SmackDown! They then did a "shocking" or "WrestleMania moment" with the match. While it sucked for people wanting to see a great match, it was still one of the main events of that WrestleMania.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:24 AM   #100
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WrestleMania is such a special show and WWE has learned to pace the shows and book it to where not all the big matches go on back-to-back-to-back at the end to where the crowd is fucking dead by the 2nd "marquee match".
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:28 AM   #101
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They hyped the fuck out of Team Teddy vs Team Johnny. Was that just not considered a main event because there was no title on the line? If so, I'll go back to what you said. The business has changed. The titles are not viewed as the most important thing anymore. You just said Punk took almost a year before he was main eventing. That's because he was holding a title that was not deemed important enough to headline shows.

But you could go ahead and throw that trivial "main event" label on the match and suddenly, bam! He's main evented every PPV since winning the title.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:30 AM   #102
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Quote:
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They hyped the fuck out of Team Teddy vs Team Johnny. Was that just not considered a main event because there was no title on the line? If so, I'll go back to what you said. The business has changed. The titles are not viewed as the most important thing anymore. You just said Punk took almost a year before he was main eventing. That's because he was holding a title that was not deemed important enough to headline shows.

But you could go ahead and throw that trivial "main event" label on the match and suddenly, bam! He's main evented every PPV since winning the title.
He has been in high profile matches on the cards. It just so happened that WWE has been lucky enough to have a lot of their "last match of the night" not involve the championship. Just because the title match isn't the last match doesn't mean it isn't an important or "main event" match. That is my point. Can't be that hard of a fucking concept. Why is it a bad thing that the hottest storyline is a non-title storyline, and the title storylines are still hot but not as hot as the other?
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:33 AM   #103
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WrestleMania is such a special show and WWE has learned to pace the shows and book it to where not all the big matches go on back-to-back-to-back at the end to where the crowd is fucking dead by the 2nd "marquee match".
I don't care what order the matches go in. I'm not arguing "Because this match was the first of the night..." Pacing as far as the placement of matches on the card is important. I'm arguing that if a match isn't remotely on the same level as other matches, while it's a "main event" by WWE standards and I'd agree to that, you can't use "it was a main event" as a way to make a point because the label is trivial now.

If your only point was Punk vs Bryan will main event WrestleMania in te next few years by WWE's standards then... yeah. They very likely could. And I'd say WWE will likely be damn sure they have a match featuring Cena or Lesnar or Rock or someone else to CLOSE OUT the show because Punk vs Bryan wouldn't be big enough to do it.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:35 AM   #104
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I beg to differ. CM Punk and Daniel Bryan will CLOSE OUT WrestleMania in the coming years. They are both over and every time they have a match they steal the show and have the crowd eating out of their hands without much effort.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:37 AM   #105
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He has been in high profile matches on the cards. It just so happened that WWE has been lucky enough to have a lot of their "last match of the night" not involve the championship. Just because the title match isn't the last match doesn't mean it isn't an important or "main event" match. That is my point. Can't be that hard of a fucking concept. Why is it a bad thing that the hottest storyline is a non-title storyline, and the title storylines are still hot but not as hot as the other?
That's fine. Just don't try to use the term "main event" to make it sound like they're automatically on the same level. Like my example above with Hogan and Austin. The title would have never been nearly as big if some guys who were below them on the midcard were fighting for the title while they were working the real main event and being the focus of the company. And regardless of what WWE decided to put the "main event" level on, that would still be the case.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:47 AM   #106
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I think WWE is lucky to have Rock back and to a lesser extent Lesnar because they can't put together a legit, "WrestleMania" feeling WrestleMania with the full time guys they have (Outside Cena and even then, he needs someone to face) and tossing titles on guys isn't a way to make stars. The holder makes the title. The title doesn't make the holder. Hell, Triple H said it himself in the Punk DVD. Are you calling TRIPLE H wrong???
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:53 AM   #107
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You can use championship feuds to push a guy over the top once they are on the cusp. Like with Dolph Ziggler, he is over and everything. He just needs that championship feud and win to solidify him as a long term main eventer. Not a crazy idea. The only difference is WWE doesn't have to force it early or anything because they have enough stars to do it slowly and have other attractions besides the title match.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:57 AM   #108
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I think your standards for "on the cusp" are low.

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Your World Champions should be guys with crossover appeal.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:58 AM   #109
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I actually think Ziggler does have crossover appeal especially for a heel and would make the company look good if he were champion so it's not that example I'm remarking on.

I'm just saying in general. Like Bryan. And Benoit. Good God, Benoit.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:18 AM   #110
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I don't know how you can seriously say Benoit and Bryan don't have any crossover appeal.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:24 AM   #111
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Chris... Benoit...

The guy had less charisma than seems humanly possible, he didn't have a good look... Like I said, it's bizarre to me that you actually think you could have put Benoit out there doing interviews and making appearances everywhere as the face of your company and it would make the company look like a fun form of entertainment.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:34 AM   #112
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It's not even just a look thing. Mick Foley. The guy's ridiculously likeable. You put him out in the public, flaunt him around on mainstream TV, have him go on SNL and make people think what he is the kinda guy that represents what your company is about, you come off looking great.

Put Benoit in that situation in your mind now and tell me you aren't cringing. Anyone who sees it is automatically saying "lol wrestling ".
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:34 AM   #113
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Mic skills and charisma are not interchangeable. Benoit had a charisma and aura about him. He was fucking jacked looked like a fucking beast.

If you are dumb enough to say Benoit had no charisma and didn't have a good look, then there is no hope for you to actually understand and discuss wrestling. Was Benoit an actor or comedian? No, but he was one of the best wrestlers of all time and had a unique and mesmerizing intensity and fluidity in his wrestling.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:37 AM   #114
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lol, I can't believe this is actually a discussion. I seriously think you're just fucking with me right now and I'm just doing a bad job of picking up on it...
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:38 AM   #115
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Quote:
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Was Benoit an actor or comedian? No, but he was one of the best wrestlers of all time and had a unique and mesmerizing intensity and fluidity in his wrestling.
What the fuck does that have to do with crossover appeal? lol
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:40 AM   #116
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Was Benoit an actor or comedian? No, but he was one of the best wrestlers of all time and had a unique and mesmerizing intensity and fluidity in his wrestling.
What the fuck does that have to do with crossover appeal...
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:41 AM   #117
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What the fuck does that have to do with crossover appeal...
He was the best wrestler in the world, he was blue collar, he just showed up and busted his ass to do his job as best he could. What section of the wrestling audience could that possibly connect to?
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:46 AM   #118
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Oddly, you've acknowledged that the business has changed recently but you seem to still think that simply being able to put on great technical wrestling matches is enough. It hasn't been that way for about 20+ years now. Sports entertainment. It requires you to actually be... ya know... entertaining. And that means outside of just what you do in the ring. You have to be engaging.

Benoit had a shit personality in the big picture. You seem to have an undying boner for him that a lot of hardcore wrestling fans share. Understood. But don't blindly try to reason that he had any crossover appeal and he'd make the company look good to anyone who wasn't all about "the art".
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:50 AM   #119
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Daniel Bryan would have at least been something to discuss. Bryan is likeable and seems to have a great sense of humor and personality that he's shown recently. Still not really a "face of the company" type but I could see how it could be debated.

Benoit though. Just... just... wow... The man had NO appeal outside of a wrestling ring whatsoever. This is insane. lol
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:08 AM   #120
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Going into this thread highly critical that these were just the new "indie sensations", I was surprisingly impressed. Ambrose is great and looking forward to more from him. Plus the Bossman SWAT gear outfits made me like them even more.

Replace Reigns with Kurrgan and you have a winning team.
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