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Old 11-14-2013, 01:00 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Daniel Bryan seems like the "no-brainer" pick to win the 2014 Royal Rumble at this point. He is also the sort of performer that seems to lend himself to winning it in spectacular marathon fashion -- perhaps even from #1.
Hopefully, you're right.

At this stage, it would be a huge mistake for the WWE to not have Daniel Bryan win the rumble.

Bryan needs to win the Rumble, and needs to go over clean against whoever at Mania.
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Old 11-14-2013, 03:23 PM   #82
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They arent going to pull the trigger with Bryan because of the low SummerSlam buyrate.
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:03 PM   #83
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The odds on favorite for the WWE Championship is a WWE Champion vs World Heavyweight Champion match at WrestleMania; probably Orton vs Cena, or, if we're lucky, CM Punk vs Cena, which would be amazing.

Bryan's got no shot. His main event run is over for now. One day they'll make him the WWE Champion and give him some kind of a run, but not heading toward the biggest WrestleMania of all time.
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Old 11-15-2013, 08:14 PM   #84
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Isn't every Mania the "biggest of all time"?
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Old 11-16-2013, 06:01 PM   #85
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I've been against Punk vs Cena at WrestleMania (at least last year) because I don't believe WrestleMania's main event should be the same match that main evented countless minor PPVs. They should always reach for that "Rock vs Cena" level epic main event.

If they were to unify the titles though, given their history and assuming you've kept them apart for over a year, I wouldn't mind Cena vs Punk one bit.
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Old 11-16-2013, 06:02 PM   #86
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As for Bryan... I love the guy. He just isn't a WrestleMania main event type guy. He should be always on the cusp of the main event putting on stellar matches, maybe even bringing the IC Title back to near main event status. He shouldn't be headlining WrestleMania though.
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Old 11-16-2013, 08:14 PM   #87
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The problem is there are only so many damn "dream matches" you can do. Ideally, their goal should be to have characters so over/interesting that they can main event a WrestleMania without needing to rely on part-timers in the main event.
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Old 11-16-2013, 08:20 PM   #88
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I said "Rock vs Cena" level epic main event. That doesn't mean they have to use part-timers. Finding a way to make that big of a main event with your full-time guys would be acceptable, too. Outside of Cena, they've failed to make anyone big enough though. Cena is literally the only guy on the full-time roster that you can pencil into the main event of WrestleMania and THEN try to figure out who the opponent will be.
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Old 11-17-2013, 12:03 AM   #89
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Cena/Punk could easily be that level. Those 2 have yet to have a bad match and have yet to have a match without a shitload of momentum/hype going into it. Imagine if they had a 2 1/2 month build into the "biggest event of all time". The only reason Punk isn't that guy yet is because he has yet to be the top match at Mania.
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Old 11-17-2013, 12:27 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Cena/Punk could easily be that level. Those 2 have yet to have a bad match and have yet to have a match without a shitload of momentum/hype going into it.
They've had matches with no hype/momentum. Throwing your money matches on random Raw episodes does that.

I think Punk's probably the closest to being a Cena-type and be able to headline WrestleMania without a bigger star there to draw but I'm not sold on the fact that he could hit that level even with one under his belt. It's not the instant catapult to super-stardom it may have been at one point. Ask The Miz.
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Old 11-17-2013, 01:39 AM   #91
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No one will ever be "that guy" if the presumption is correct in panicing over buyrates. They'll keep booking potential main eventers in a "why should I give a shit about them?" kind of way while trying to hotshot the next new face into credible world dominance in the span of two PPV's.

Again, I point out that both the storyline face of the company AND the literal face of the company (Orton and Cena, respectively) were both seen as an "experiment", and kind of pushed out of neccessity. They didn't have the cast of reliable top-teir talent anymore either from injury or pursuing other interests.

And it's funny when you control a huge chunk of the perception of a character in how "good" they are. When people talk about being marks for a win/loss record, it pretty much means obsessing over getting wins, but if you're trying to get someone over to make them appear *better*, you'd think WINS would accomplish that. Face wins is final triumph. Dirty heel wins cement them as heels. Clean heel wins proves they're as good as they say, and make you want to see him dethroned all the more. Going back to Punk's magical 434, in with hindsight and the announce team trying to put that over now make it seem like a bigger deal than when it was happening. When it was happening, you had your champion- self proclaimed "best in the world"- losing clean in non title matches on a regular basis. 20 years ago in the same situation, if Punk even appeared on TV outside of a canned promo, he was going to squash a jobber to solidify his claim, or at least put on a show with someone up the card but ultimately come out on top. Help from Heyman would be optional, but he would get the win. Punk losing all the time in his reign plants the seeds of "how the hell is this guy champion?", and nobody wants to see a hole where there's difinitive doubt. The same can be said for Axel's re-christening and IC run. His backdoor victores at the beginning were at least interesting because they were victories. He's been booked like a baffoon from jump instead of becoming somewhat of a badass force to be reconed with. Instead everyone's like "why is this guy a title holder"? Simply having the Intercontinental Championship doesn't make him instantly better, he's supposed to make the title better, and being made to look like a chump all the time doesn't do that in the least... something WWE has been pretty bad about for awhile (let's throw Title/MitB on someone and see if it gets them over) instead of being a stamp of approval, it just becomes a rotating gimmick to unsuccessfully try to get the next guy over.

What's so disheartening about the Bryan situation is that timeless tale that many wrestlers have shot about over the years about how the face chases and chases and then that moment where he finally wins. They didn't deliver on the "finally wins" that's supposed to come. It makes it appear the heel was telling the truth. That's not what people want; the villain to be honest in the end. Repeating Bryan is a "B+ player", and then making good on just being a "B+ player", makes everyone believe he is, in fact, that B+ player, and doesn't deserve to be there. It was the same with Christian when he started the "one more match" thing, yet he kept blowing all his opportunites. After about the 5th/6th/7th loophole into a title opportunity, everyone is believing that he couldn't get it done and no one wanted to see him try anymore.

Meanwhile, trying to strap rockets to the asses of people like Ryback (throwing the hoss thing to the side) who wasn't even around long enough or been through enough angles to have some character development depth, is suddenly supposed to jump to the top of the mountain while he was still pretty vanilla. Roman Reigns and Big E have the same issue at this moment with all the speculation swirling about them getting impending pushes. That same issue that plagued guys like Zeke Jackson, Heidenrich, and Chris Masters.

You'd think they would have learned that lesson with The Rock. WWE tried to force him down everyone's throats when there was nothing to him yet. All we knew he was yet another guy of Samoan lineage and muscles. He may have had "the look", but most of the time, nobody CARES if they have the look and nothing else. There's a reason why EVERYONE doesn't have the success of an Undertaker, Bill Goldberg, or a Brock Lesnar. Most of the time, people see it, are in awe, and then go "okay... and now what? Yeah, he's big and muscular like everyone else, so what makes him different/special?" The Rock had to go through all the "Die Rocky, Die", and joining The Nation and IC battle with SCSA and Hunter and The Corporation to flesh out that character... for people to be "familiar" with him; for him to gain the "and then what".

All the while, the under/midcard is littered with people with TONS of "and then what", and all they truly need is the machine behind them for longer than 8 weeks at a time. Instead of following through on guys that have been red hot WHEN they are red hot (Zack Ryder was insanely over in spite of barely being on TV; people were CHANTING for Dolph Ziggler while he was still a heel; etc, they're off chasing the next giant nobody will remember. For a company that is looking to create "larger than life superstars", they seem to get hung up on it being literal physical build instead of people who emotionally connect with the ticketholders.

Daniel Bryan has THE WHOLE WORLD going "YES! YES! YES!", but you know, he's not "that guy"...

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Old 11-17-2013, 02:08 AM   #92
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You said yourself Zack Ryder was insanely over, too. So does that mean he could have been the face of the company/headlined WrestleManias?
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Old 11-17-2013, 02:13 AM   #93
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Also, I'd say Orton and Cena were both kinda groomed to be the next big thing. I don't think either was simply an "experiment" or "pushed out of necessity". Everyone was picking Cena and Orton as being the stars of the future pretty early on and both had their journey. Neither was hotshotted out of nowhere.

Other than that, I'd agree with pretty much everything else. As for chasing the next giant, they've even kinda failed at that. Ryback had the crowd on his side AND was everything Vince usually looks for... and they dropped the ball in epic fashion.

The idea that wins/losses don't matter in wrestling is ridiculous. And yes, having your champion lose on a regular basis is also ridiculous. Just scraping the barrel of the glaring flaws in WWE booking logic that holds them back from getting people over. Plus the fact that the ENTIRE card outside of the main event is basically treated like meaningless filler for the 2 1/3 hours of the show that isn't devoted to the main event. Those guys are supposed to be your future. And you're gonna spend years and years not doing anything remotely interesting with them and suddenly when you realize you're in desperate need of a main eventer, you're gonna try to cancel out all those years of nothingness and make people think they matter in an instant. It's horrific booking.
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Old 11-17-2013, 02:49 AM   #94
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All I'm going to say is this:

They're going to need someone to take that top spot. And sooner rather than later. Not because it's time to turn Cena heel, believe it or not.

I don't know if Cena is going to be healthy enough to be on top by this time next year. Show has to be on his last legs, as far as his career goes. Same with Henry. Punk is supposed to be retiring here in the next couple years. At current rate of consumption, the top of the card would be Orton, Del Rio, and Bryan.
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Old 11-17-2013, 03:54 PM   #95
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Also, I'd say Orton and Cena were both kinda groomed to be the next big thing. I don't think either was simply an "experiment" or "pushed out of necessity". Everyone was picking Cena and Orton as being the stars of the future pretty early on and both had their journey. Neither was hotshotted out of nowhere.

Other than that, I'd agree with pretty much everything else. As for chasing the next giant, they've even kinda failed at that. Ryback had the crowd on his side AND was everything Vince usually looks for... and they dropped the ball in epic fashion.

The idea that wins/losses don't matter in wrestling is ridiculous. And yes, having your champion lose on a regular basis is also ridiculous. Just scraping the barrel of the glaring flaws in WWE booking logic that holds them back from getting people over. Plus the fact that the ENTIRE card outside of the main event is basically treated like meaningless filler for the 2 1/3 hours of the show that isn't devoted to the main event. Those guys are supposed to be your future. And you're gonna spend years and years not doing anything remotely interesting with them and suddenly when you realize you're in desperate need of a main eventer, you're gonna try to cancel out all those years of nothingness and make people think they matter in an instant. It's horrific booking.
Cena is the last guy I can recall that they really did a good job building toward the main event. His first Mania, he gets a solid victory over The Big Show for the US Championship. He was built up over the rest of the year, turned face around Survivor Series time, and then got his big victory over JBL at Mania 21. The rest is history.

Why can't this be done again? I feel like the WWE just doesn't have the focus or the attention span to let a guy evolve over the course of a year as they build him toward the top. Bryan was insanely over at WrestleMania 28 - and they crushed him in that horrible loss to Sheamus. The next year he's tag teaming with Kane. This year - who knows. Probably a match against Kane or something equally stupid.

He could've at least put up a decent fight against Sheamus (as he did one month later at Extreme Rules), and if they had built him right and continued to push him over the course of the next year, I have no doubt he would've been ready for a huge match at Mania 29 - possibly a WWE Championship win. The problem, of course, is that both of those Manias were plagued with part-timer returns, taking that opportunity away from him.

Guys like HBK, Stone Cold, The Rock, Triple H, and even Cena and Orton never really had this problem. There weren't major part-timers who could come back and steal the spotlight. Even when the nWo came back for Mania X-8, they still gave the top spot to Chris Jericho, who rightfully deserved it. When Hogan faced Vince at Mania XIX, they put him in the right spot - beneath the rightful main event of Kurt Angle/Lesnar.

As much as Rock/Cena, Undertaker/Triple H and HBK, and Lesnar/Triple H helped boost WrestleMania buyrates in the short term, it's pulled the rug out from underneath the up and comers in a big way, and I think in the next few years we're going to really start to see the negative effects of this in major ways.

How could HBK have ever made it to the top spot if he had to take the back seat to a Hulk Hogan or Macho Man Randy Savage return at WrestleMania 12? Or if they had decided to put Ultimate Warrior in the main event against Bret or Diesel or Undertaker (any of these matches arguably a "bigger draw" that HBK/Hart Iron Man)?
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:11 PM   #96
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I also think that Money in the Bank has had a huge effect on the build of new superstars as well. Before, a superstar's road to the World/WWE Championship usually culminated at WrestleMania. A Mania victory for a superstar's first world championship was a huge moment - one that made superstars into mega stars. Hogan body slamming Andre the Giant (Hogan was already champion, I know, but this was still his "legendary moment"), Macho Man winning the tournament, Warrior pinning Hogan clean, Bret defeating Yokozuna, HBK winning the Iron Man, Austin defeating HBK, Benoit beating HBK and Triple H, and Cena/Batista victories at Mania 21... these are moments that made superstars into legends (Benoit obviously fucked his up).

But since the inception of Money in the Bank, a lot of guys have cashed in for their first world titles in cheap fashion. RVD is an exception, and his win arguably was his career defining moment and was perfect to happen at ONS2. Aside from him, I pose these questions:

- Would Edge have been a greater superstar if he had won his first WWE Championship at WrestleMania? How much would that moment have solidified him as a true superstar? His career is the best to look at since he's retired. He never got his WrestleMania moment.

- Would CM Punk have benefitted from waiting a couple more years into his WWE career to win his first World Championship at WrestleMania, as opposed to a cheap cash in on Edge after Batista put him through the announce table? Another superstar who has yet to have his WrestleMania moment, and who is arguably the 2nd biggest superstar on the WWE's full time roster.

- Did the MITB cash in do ANYTHING at all for Jack Swagger? Or The Miz? Or Dolph Ziggler? Without MITB, I really don't think Swagger or Miz would've been anywhere near the major titles. The same could be said for Alberto Del Rio. Ziggler is one of those guys who would've benefitted from a big WrestleMania 1st WWE or World Title win. He is now floundering after cashing in after Mania 29.

- I made my point about Daniel Bryan in the post above - MITB gave him his 1st World Championship, but what has that really meant to his career? What did he accomplish after cashing in MITB for the World Title that he couldn't have accomplished as US or IC Champion? Where would he be now if he had been built up after Mania 28 (when the "Yes!" chants really started to take off), leading to his first WHC victory at Mania 29 against an established heel?


Maybe WWE is actually realizing that MITB hurts their superstars more than it helps them in the long run. Maybe that's why the MITB for the WWE Championship was made up of all former WWE Champions this year. Maybe that's why Sandow lost his cash-in (might end up being the best thing that ever happened to him - now he has to EARN his first WHC or WWE Championship victory - like the superstars of old).


Lots of thoughts here. Kind of just rambling now. Not even drunk. Just super tired.
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:26 PM   #97
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I'd argue Edge spearing Foley through a flaming table would count as a "WrestleMania moment".
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:34 PM   #98
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Fair enough, Steele. But my question remains the same.

And I'm of the opinion that Edge beating John Cena for the WWE Championship at WrestleMania (even if he won it with a little help) would've been a bigger "WrestleMania moment" than his match against Foley.
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Old 11-17-2013, 06:15 PM   #99
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Cena/HHH was more important to Cena's career at that point.
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Old 11-17-2013, 06:17 PM   #100
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Not everybody can be made at WrestleMania, and Edge was the top heel at that point anyway. Heels don't win at WrestleMania unless they are gods (ie. Austin and HHH).
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Old 11-18-2013, 02:21 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Guycott View Post
No one will ever be "that guy" if the presumption is correct in panicking over buyrates. They'll keep booking potential main eventers in a "why should I give a shit about them?" kind of way while trying to hotshot the next new face into credible world dominance in the span of two PPV's.
Totally. WWE investors create pressure for improbably high ratings performance of always going up week after week. The office at Titan Towers needs to cool down and recognize not every new viewer (teenager, grade schooler, whoever) is going to watch on a separate TV instead of crowding around with friends and family at home or at a sports bar (one Nielsen view for every all people in the room).

I'm sure power outages like Superstorm Sandy also cause a tenth or fifth of a Nielsen drop. WWE needs to think about the ratings two or three months away instead of obsess over recent history.

And in hindsight, WCW may have limited its own ratings through "Nitro parties" because fewer TVs were turned on and tuned in for the same number of viewers.
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Old 12-01-2013, 01:28 AM   #102
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You said yourself Zack Ryder was insanely over, too. So does that mean he could have been the face of the company/headlined WrestleManias?
Possibly.

With time and small, steady pushes. That would be the key.

Should he have been battling for the WHC/WWE title the year his popularty exploded? Absolutely not. He should, however, have actually been on TV more... and not just random Antonio Tarver-like backstage cameos. Make somebody jealous of him and his popularity in spite of not doing anything. Start there. Slowly work him up the ladder. Have him get in wars with people. He could have been at least a solid, credible midcard guy by now. Instead, he's still barely seen or heard from unless it is to job.
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Old 12-01-2013, 06:00 AM   #103
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MITB isn't an issue, it's how the winners are presented prior to cashing in and after cashing in that's the problem, if they were booked as credible threats, allowed to be perceived as championship material before and after cashing in then there wouldn't be a problem at all. Punk floundered after cashing in because he was booked to look weak in all his matches after winning, same goes for a few other less stellar winners, the gimmick is sound the execution isn't.
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Old 12-01-2013, 09:26 PM   #104
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Very interesting discussion here.

I'm still hopeful that Daniel Bryan is worth a large bundle to the WWE. He's so tremendously over at this point in time that I just can't seem him "going away," even if the WWE has no immediate plans to use him in the World Title scene. He's certainly still a major part of programming and he has earned that place.

I'm still not sure if I would go with him winning the 2014 Royal Rumble or not. He seems like the most obvious choice to do so ever. Anything else would feel forced and like an evasion of the true WrestleMania story -- Daniel Bryan's rise to the top. I speak selfishly when I say that I want Daniel Bryan to end The Undertaker's streak at WrestleMania XXX and cement himself as an icon, but I guess he could do the same thing by challenging for the WWE World Title in the main event of WrestleMania and successfully winning. Cena vs. Bryan with Bryan forcing Cena to submit would be pretty epic.
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Old 12-02-2013, 05:02 AM   #105
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With this "both titles on the line" TLC match I could see them switching the titles so that Orton would be WHC. I could then see them reigniting the Orton-Bryan feud on the way to Mania. Bryan gets his triumph on the Grandest Stage of Them All, albeit for the less important belt.
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Old 12-09-2013, 06:28 PM   #106
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I remember as we approached Money in the Bank, my perfect booking for SummerSlam woul have had Daniel Bryan take the World Title off Alberto Del Rio.
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