Who sides do you take in the following real feuds?

[Destor]

YOU KNOW?

[St. Jimmy]

Hart v. Michaels: Michaels.
Anderson v. Nash: Nash.
Flair v. Foley: Foley.
Warrior v. Reality: Reality.

Triple H v. Hogan: Triple H
Austin v. Jarrett: Austin
Edge v. Hardy: Edge
Lesnar v. Internet: INTERWUBS.
Douglas v. Everyone: Everyone.

I ask you this one:
Gays v. Warrior

[The MAC]

just one thing abt montreal : you blaming bret ? why? Blame Vince he told Bret its fine you can leave montreal anyway you want. then he went back on his word. How is that Bret's fault ?

you fuckers have been tossing michaels salad for so long you can tell the difference betwen shit and the jello

[Destor]

How is it Bret fault? Bret is one that couldn't be talked out of not dropping the title. Something he should have never even wanted.

[NeanderCarl]

Bret never refused to drop the title. He just refused to drop the title in Canada. At one point, he apparently even agreed to drop the belt to Michaels. Just not in Canada.

Even though I side with Hart (for the most part) in that feud, the "won't lose in Canada" argument is a pile of shit. Does that mean Cena shouldn't drop the title in the U.S. because he's an American? Bollocks to that.

Jarrett was in no way ready for a main event feud in 1999. Hell, he's not a main eventer NOW, 8 years later, despite several World titles and numourous main event pushes in several companies. He's a solid mid card heel, but nothing more. A feud with Austin would only have dragged Austin down.

Although, thinking about it, it may have been interesting to see Austin have a short program with Jarrett during his "woman beater" stage (Jarrett's, not Austin's ) rather than ANOTHER installment in the Austin/Undertaker never-ending feud.

[NeanderCarl]

As for Foley, without the big bumps, he was just a great talker with a bad look.

Great talkers with bad looks become WWE managers, not WWE Superstars.

The big bumping style also ushered in a more hard-hitting, less hokey style which fuelled WWF Attitude. Without Foley, and the hardcore injection he and The Undertaker provided in 1996, I think there would have been no Attitude era, or at least it would have been tamer. Foley wasn't an innovator, but he redefined the brawling style.

And, as someone pointed out, Flair calling Foley a "glorified stuntman" is the pot calling the kettle black, as surely ALL wrestlers could be labelled as such... and it becomes all the more hypocritcal having watched Flair rolling around in thumbtacks on ECW and in Hardcore matches last year.

Fuck Flair. For a great in-ring performer, he can be quite the dick himself. He's one of my favourite characters and wrestlers of all time, but Richard Fliehr is an arrogant, jealous mark-for-himself jackass. And if I have to hear him refer to Triple H as "the greatest wrestler alive today" one more time, I may have to find him and kill him. And I don't mean on-screen either... he apparently parades this self-serving, ass-kissing "belief" to anyone who will listen backstage, to the media... maybe even to himself in the mirror, I don't know.

[The MAC]

pssh!everyone knows Miz is the greatest wrestler Naitch!

[darkpower]

One thing that I will agree with on the side of Michaels is that Meltzer is a fucktard who not only is so biased that he should work on the Fox Noise Channel (thank you, Olbermann), but whenever something is discovered that is considered news, he MUST take ALL credit (according to something I read a LONG time ago. Might still ring true today).

One of the main reasons why that Hart vs. Michaels thing is still going on is because of Vince, though. Think of it. EVERY SINGLE TIME an event in Montreal is held, they HAVE to bring it up at SOME POINT in the show. They find SOME way to sneak it in. It could even be something like this:

JR: Man, I just let out the worst fart ever. Should've rubbed that BBQ sauce instead of eating it.
KING: For God sakes, JR! That smells worse than what happened here in 1997. Remember that?
JR: Of course. Bret got screwed by Shawn and Vince big time at Survivor Series of that year.

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by darkpower One of the main reasons why that Hart vs. Michaels thing is still going on is because of Vince, though.

An you expect him to ignore it when the entire crowd chants "You screwed Bret" every time they're given the slightest provocation?

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by DarthTeedious An you expect him to ignore it when the entire crowd chants "You screwed Bret" every time they're given the slightest provocation?

If you keep giving them the bait/take the bait, they are going to add the fuel. Basically saying, YES!!! Don't give them that luxury, and they will eventually SHUT UP ABOUT IT!!

[Theo Dious]

By "slightest provocation" I meant "showing up." Basically, Vince McMahon or Shawn Michaels showing their faces, or any heel winning in a less than clean manner with a submission move can be seen as provocation to the Montreal crowds.
BTW, does anyone else think that some half the crowd at live events in Montreal either don't remember or barely remember the screwjob, and just chant "you screwed Bret" because it's the cool Montreal thing to do?

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by DarthTeedious By "slightest provocation" I meant "showing up." Basically, Vince McMahon or Shawn Michaels showing their faces, or any heel winning in a less than clean manner with a submission move can be seen as provocation to the Montreal crowds. BTW, does anyone else think that some half the crowd at live events in Montreal either don't remember or barely remember the screwjob, and just chant "you screwed Bret" because it's the cool Montreal thing to do?

Still, if they show up, and they say something to the effect, then it will continue. Again, if you don't say anything about it when they start on that, they will eventually begin to phase out. But Vince has NEVER let it phase out because they never SHUT UP ABOUT IT when they start that shit.

Oh, and I think they DO know about it because we never stop hearing about it. Shawn's book has a whole CHAPTER devoted to Montreal. Remember the Highlight Reel when they were there in 2003 and Jericho had the show devoted to it and actually showed clips of it. It was on WWE 24/7 at one point because of it. It's obviously on YouTube. They detail it anytime it's brought up when in the Belle Centre. C'mon, you don't think they know about it. The WWE is making absolute certain that everyone knows about it and is able to form an absolute opinion about it.

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by darkpower Oh, and I think they DO know about it because we never stop hearing about it. Shawn's book has a whole CHAPTER devoted to Montreal. Remember the Highlight Reel when they were there in 2003 and Jericho had the show devoted to it and actually showed clips of it. It was on WWE 24/7 at one point because of it. It's obviously on YouTube. They detail it anytime it's brought up when in the Belle Centre. C'mon, you don't think they know about it. The WWE is making absolute certain that everyone knows about it and is able to form an absolute opinion about it.

I think that everybody knows that something happened, but I don't think that your average 12-18 year old fan who shows up to drool over Cena has a real grasp of the situation. I also wonder how many people out there think it was a work. I've explained the situation to people only to get the reaction "What, you believe that? Don't you know that that stuff is all fake?"

And incidentally, Vince has no real reason to not mention it. It's instant heat, and booking a show around it assures that you're going to get the reaction you want. If you're in Montreal and happen to be Vince McMahon or Shawn Michaels, you might as well go with the guaranteed reaction. I still don't think the crowd would refrain if Vince did, but as long as he has a definite reaction, Vince is going to use it.

[The One]

Originally Posted by MacGyver007 The people who are siding with Bret Hart in this thread are presenting evidence to back their opinions up. The michaels fans are just stating their opinions and predigious. If you hate Bret,fine, but at least have the common sense to see right from wrong. If you don't have it, fake it for a little while and say something like " personally I don't like Bret Hart but interms of his real life feud with Michaels Hart in the right. If you can't do that then go fucking hang yourself.

Fine, let's play the fact game.

FACT

Bret Hart was the first person to make "shoot_style" comments on television when he implied that Shawn Michaels was a closet homosexual due to his appearing in Playgirl...Michaels responded with implying that Bret slept with Sunny.

OPINION

Bret could have slept with Sunny. They were both VERY flirty with one another, and it's certainly not unheard of for afairs to begin in the work place.

FACT

Bret Hart was the first person to make this a physical rivalry when after the Sunny comment he attacked Shawn backstage. (FYI: This was the first time Shawn ever asked for his release from the company, and it was due entirly to Bret Hart's physical attack of him)

FACT

Bret Hart was upset at the way WrestleMania XII was built up...with Shawn training and getting time off and looking like a million bucks in the videos as opposed to Bret getting school by his dad in the videos. Now this is where the feud really began to pick up, however, despite the end product not being to Bret's standards of what he wanted, it was Bret's idea to show him training with his father. Each man was given a certain amount of freedom to build up to Mania how they wished, somehow, the fact that Shawn came out looking better in the video packages was Shawn's fault.

OPINION

So you could say, (and it's certainly my opinion) that Bret's whinny attitude actually started this feud.

FACT

Bret wouldn't allow Michaels to win the title or score the pinfall in the hour allowed. They had to come up with the overtime scenario because Bret refused to lay down or tap in the first hour.

FACT

Bret was supposed to shake Michaels hand after the match, he did not. Michaels then told Bret to "Get the fuck out of my ring."

FACT

Bret Hart seriously considered leaving WWE for WCW in 1996 due to WCW offering a lot more money. Shawn Michaels only considered leaving for WCW when Bret attacked him backstage as perviously stated.

OPINION

Bret Hart is praised and glorified for sticking with WWE why? He pushed and waited until the eleventh hour before deciding to stick with WWE. Michaels only wanted to leave when a man assulted him backstage. Sound like maybe, just maybe, Shawn was a little more loyal, but that's just my opinion.

HBK FACT

Shawn Michaels did have a knee injury which is why he vacated the title. Again, I've already stated this in this very thread, however I will do it again, because of this, Michaels lost on on hundreds of thousands of dollars in WrestleMania Main Event pay days, in his merch sales dropping, in even weekly apperances. In order for the "He didn't want to job to Bret" thing to be true, you'd have to assume that he was willing to throw hundreds of thousands of dollars down the drain, just to avoid giving him the 1-2-3. But, as I've already stated, he had a knee injury, one that a doctor told him if he pushed it any further than he had, he may never walk again...by the way, it has NEVER been confirmed that the original intended Mania 13 M.E. was going to be a rematch.

OPINION

Infact, if it were true that Bret was supposed to win the title at Mania 13, doesn't anyone find it odd that he wasn't even involved with the Title match at Mania? But I suppose Meltzer making up excuses for how even Michaels being injured was a stab at Bret is good enough for a lot of you...

FACT

Bret Hart was told by WWE's Owner Vince McMahon to drop the WWE Championship to Shawn Michaels on November 9, 1997. He refused.

OPINION

And that's where the last bit of this feud ends. I've said it so many times before, Bret Screwed Bret. Hart had creative control over his character. That means that Vince couldn't make Bret dress in drag on TV if Bret didn't want that. It does NOT mean that if he's champion he gets to hold the belt for ransom. Bret Hart's contract was going to expire. He was refusing to lay down for Shawn. He came up with an idea where he'd forfit the title on the next RAW (yeah, nothing like sending a guy off to the rival company with a W over your other top guy) or that he would drop the belt a few weeks later once they were out of Canada (and Bret, despite refusing to drop the title to Shawn here, should be trusted to drop the title to Shawn there...AFTER his contract has run out and he could appear on WCW television and throw it in the trash...) But let's assume Bret is some horrible victim in this scenario. Well, we've all since learned, it was HHH's idea, and Vince said to do it. Michaels was the only man who did what his boss told him to do that night.

Enjoy the facts.

TK

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by The One A whole bunch of well put together stuff I never thought of before.

You, sir, are my new Lord.

[BigDaddyCool]

Originally Posted by The One Fine, let's play the fact game. FACT Bret Hart was the first person to make "shoot_style" comments on television when he implied that Shawn Michaels was a closet homosexual due to his appearing in Playgirl...Michaels responded with implying that Bret slept with Sunny. OPINION Bret could have slept with Sunny. They were both VERY flirty with one another, and it's certainly not unheard of for afairs to begin in the work place. FACT Bret Hart was the first person to make this a physical rivalry when after the Sunny comment he attacked Shawn backstage. (FYI: This was the first time Shawn ever asked for his release from the company, and it was due entirly to Bret Hart's physical attack of him) FACT Bret Hart was upset at the way WrestleMania XII was built up...with Shawn training and getting time off and looking like a million bucks in the videos as opposed to Bret getting school by his dad in the videos. Now this is where the feud really began to pick up, however, despite the end product not being to Bret's standards of what he wanted, it was Bret's idea to show him training with his father. Each man was given a certain amount of freedom to build up to Mania how they wished, somehow, the fact that Shawn came out looking better in the video packages was Shawn's fault. OPINION So you could say, (and it's certainly my opinion) that Bret's whinny attitude actually started this feud. FACT Bret wouldn't allow Michaels to win the title or score the pinfall in the hour allowed. They had to come up with the overtime scenario because Bret refused to lay down or tap in the first hour. FACT Bret was supposed to shake Michaels hand after the match, he did not. Michaels then told Bret to "Get the fuck out of my ring." FACT Bret Hart seriously considered leaving WWE for WCW in 1996 due to WCW offering a lot more money. Shawn Michaels only considered leaving for WCW when Bret attacked him backstage as perviously stated. OPINION Bret Hart is praised and glorified for sticking with WWE why? He pushed and waited until the eleventh hour before deciding to stick with WWE. Michaels only wanted to leave when a man assulted him backstage. Sound like maybe, just maybe, Shawn was a little more loyal, but that's just my opinion. HBK FACT Shawn Michaels did have a knee injury which is why he vacated the title. Again, I've already stated this in this very thread, however I will do it again, because of this, Michaels lost on on hundreds of thousands of dollars in WrestleMania Main Event pay days, in his merch sales dropping, in even weekly apperances. In order for the "He didn't want to job to Bret" thing to be true, you'd have to assume that he was willing to throw hundreds of thousands of dollars down the drain, just to avoid giving him the 1-2-3. But, as I've already stated, he had a knee injury, one that a doctor told him if he pushed it any further than he had, he may never walk again...by the way, it has NEVER been confirmed that the original intended Mania 13 M.E. was going to be a rematch. OPINION Infact, if it were true that Bret was supposed to win the title at Mania 13, doesn't anyone find it odd that he wasn't even involved with the Title match at Mania? But I suppose Meltzer making up excuses for how even Michaels being injured was a stab at Bret is good enough for a lot of you... FACT Bret Hart was told by WWE's Owner Vince McMahon to drop the WWE Championship to Shawn Michaels on November 9, 1997. He refused. OPINION And that's where the last bit of this feud ends. I've said it so many times before, Bret Screwed Bret. Hart had creative control over his character. That means that Vince couldn't make Bret dress in drag on TV if Bret didn't want that. It does NOT mean that if he's champion he gets to hold the belt for ransom. Bret Hart's contract was going to expire. He was refusing to lay down for Shawn. He came up with an idea where he'd forfit the title on the next RAW (yeah, nothing like sending a guy off to the rival company with a W over your other top guy) or that he would drop the belt a few weeks later once they were out of Canada (and Bret, despite refusing to drop the title to Shawn here, should be trusted to drop the title to Shawn there...AFTER his contract has run out and he could appear on WCW television and throw it in the trash...) But let's assume Bret is some horrible victim in this scenario. Well, we've all since learned, it was HHH's idea, and Vince said to do it. Michaels was the only man who did what his boss told him to do that night. Enjoy the facts. TK

Fact: Bret Hart is Canadian, and as we all know, Canadian's haven't been faces since Montreal.

[The One]

Canada Sucks.

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by The One Michaels was the only man who did what his boss told him to do that night.

*coughHebnercough*

[The One]

THIS IS FOR YOU EARL!

Yes, of course, Hebby did his job too. I was refering more to between Michaels and Hart.

[Theo Dious]

Earl does not get his props. That man deserves more than he's got in his time.