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Old 04-25-2007, 04:42 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The One
Stealing a Wrestling Move = Rape

Way to take this to insane extremes to service your side of the argument.
You do see how that is a cop out though? "it's ok bacuase it's common." A lot of things aren't ok that are common.
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:43 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkbowler
Just curious, why do people put this guy's name in all caps? I've noticed it with Kenta and Taka Michinoku, and I just don't get it.
'Cause his full name is Kenta Kobayashi. Which is strikingly similar to Kenta Kobashi only:


KENTA


Kenta

Ya dig?
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:45 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor
Both were legends by that point, how you all cant make that destinction is annoying.
The Figure Four, The Ace Crusher, The Chokeslam, The Sharpshooter, I could go on...but those were/are all used (either the EXACT same or slight modifications) by countless people. Does it make it less impactful? Are we so stuck in a semi-state of kayfabe that we are required to believe that only one person who invented the move knows how to execute it? He's using a freakin' fireman's carry to a knee to the face. It's not the end of the world. Guess what, he also use to use the Pedigree off the top rope. Did Triple H shrivle up and die? No. Did people on the indy circut even give a shit that he used HHH's move? No. This is not theft, this is using a move in a scripted fight.

God, I wonder if sometimes really big name stars on the dance or ice skating or whatever performance thing you'd like to compare it to get pissy if they see someone else do their dance move. FUCK MICHAEL JACKSON FOR STEALING THE MOON WALK! FUCK HIM!
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:47 PM   #84
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I'm sure people loved it when Punk used the Pedigree.
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:49 PM   #85
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If he's so good why does he mostly wreslte infront 400 people.
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:49 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor
You do see how that is a cop out though? "it's ok bacuase it's common." A lot of things aren't ok that are common.
Common doesn't mean it's right, but on something as trivial as this, it means you should untwist the panties and get over it. Other examples; Smoking pot is so common if you feel offended or inclinded to make legal action of it, you deserve a swift kick to the balls. Speeding down the highway...legal...no...but who gives a shit. And these are actual LAWS that are being broken, not just using someone's move.

And does anyone realize how dumb that sounds? "Using Someone's Move." As though they were the first person to move in that physical way so no one else can touch it. God I hope the guy who invented walking is screaming at all of us from beyond the grave right now.
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:51 PM   #87
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If wrestlers didnt use another wreslters move we'd be left 5 moves.
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:52 PM   #88
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WWE won't let Punk do the Pepsi Plunge because it's to dangerous.
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:55 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The One
The Figure Four, The Ace Crusher, The Chokeslam, The Sharpshooter, I could go on...but those were/are all used (either the EXACT same or slight modifications) by countless people. Does it make it less impactful? Are we so stuck in a semi-state of kayfabe that we are required to believe that only one person who invented the move knows how to execute it? He's using a freakin' fireman's carry to a knee to the face. It's not the end of the world. Guess what, he also use to use the Pedigree off the top rope. Did Triple H shrivle up and die? No. Did people on the indy circut even give a shit that he used HHH's move? No. This is not theft, this is using a move in a scripted fight.

God, I wonder if sometimes really big name stars on the dance or ice skating or whatever performance thing you'd like to compare it to get pissy if they see someone else do their dance move. FUCK MICHAEL JACKSON FOR STEALING THE MOON WALK! FUCK HIM!
Let's not forget that not only has he stolen this move from KENTA, but others as well.

Now you, as a former worker yourself, how can you cast this off so easily? If this were you, and Punk started going threw your move-set wouldn't you be offended?

How many guys have a made a name for themselves off the back off a move? Off the back of a new and unique move that no one has seen before? COuntless workers? Is it fair to deprive KENTA of this option, this possible gimmick? Is that right?

WOuld you sit quite if it were done to a worker you know?'

And as far as that bullshit with the pedigree goes, how can you not see the problem? EVERYONE has seen the pedigree done by H. He's established that as HIS move. KENTA hasn't had that opportunity, and until he had it isn't right for a guy to come along and take as his own.

At least they're calling it the G2S though. SO I can pretend this is a homage like the Plunge was.
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:55 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
If he's so good why does he mostly wreslte infront 400 people.
What?
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:57 PM   #91
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I can even understand one wrestler not using another wrestler's finishing move if they work or the same company, but if it's a rival company, or even if it's a company that isn't even in the same league, they should limit their move set to make other people "looking good"...despite my belief that no one actually looks bad if moves are done by more than one person (other than the person who doesn't do the move as well as the other guy).
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:57 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
If he's so good why does he mostly wreslte infront 400 people.
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:57 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor
What?
KENTA
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:58 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The One
Common doesn't mean it's right, but on something as trivial as this, it means you should untwist the panties and get over it. Other examples; Smoking pot is so common if you feel offended or inclinded to make legal action of it, you deserve a swift kick to the balls. Speeding down the highway...legal...no...but who gives a shit. And these are actual LAWS that are being broken, not just using someone's move.

And does anyone realize how dumb that sounds? "Using Someone's Move." As though they were the first person to move in that physical way so no one else can touch it. God I hope the guy who invented walking is screaming at all of us from beyond the grave right now.
No, I wont untwist my panites. This could very easily be me getting my shit copped and pasted. I wont sit here and act like I dont care. It's bullshit, Punk should, I dunno, think of something for himself for once? How about that. Come up with something on his own? That'd be novel.
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Old 04-25-2007, 04:58 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
KENTA
Check your facts genious.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:01 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The One
Bitterness? No. Just bored and tired of hearing people cream over these worthless pieces of shit who can get a small little group of RoH marks to chant "This is Awesome!" or whatever their chants are.
Right, answer me this. If these guys are so useless, how come they've got recognition, they're wrestling regularly and they're actually getting paid to wrestle instead of telling the promoter 'Hey, I'll be happy to work for free!'?

They must be doing something right, they must be doing something that makes people give a damn about them opposed to Joe Blow who wrestles in a gym in Bumfuck, Idaho who is doing the exact same thing.

By the way, the reason I mentioned bitterness is because I got the impression as I was reading that whole thing of 'I'm resentful towards anyone on the independent circuit or overseas who is actually known to the IWC and meanwhile my entire career, I was stuck in obscurity and people were more concerned with scratching my balls than watching my matches.' Of course, I don't know anything about your career but that was my gut feeling.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:01 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The One
I can even understand one wrestler not using another wrestler's finishing move if they work or the same company, but if it's a rival company, or even if it's a company that isn't even in the same league, they should limit their move set to make other people "looking good"...despite my belief that no one actually looks bad if moves are done by more than one person (other than the person who doesn't do the move as well as the other guy).
What about honor? What about the issue of people calling KENTA a thief, when he damn well isn't. DOn't matter huh? Cause they're wong and all, well I don't know about you but it's shitty of someone put a guy through that. But hey, it's just some indy guy.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:02 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor
Check your facts genious.
It always looks like he is, but thats just because its Japan, and their wrestling just seems second rate in the way its presented. I am however a fan of Mr. Kobashi.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:04 PM   #99
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You people have me flustered that you would put my paychecks in jeopardy under the guise that "it doesn't matter." I'm out for now.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:04 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisat928
WWE won't let Punk do the Pepsi Plunge because it's to dangerous.
If the ring was in space and Punk did the Plunge and nobody hit the floor and everything just...floated, WWE still wouldn't let Punk do it. What you meant to say was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisat928
HHH won't let Punk do the Pepsi Plunge because it's to his.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:04 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor
Let's not forget that not only has he stolen this move from KENTA, but others as well.

Now you, as a former worker yourself, how can you cast this off so easily? If this were you, and Punk started going threw your move-set wouldn't you be offended?

How many guys have a made a name for themselves off the back off a move? Off the back of a new and unique move that no one has seen before? COuntless workers? Is it fair to deprive KENTA of this option, this possible gimmick? Is that right?

WOuld you sit quite if it were done to a worker you know?'

And as far as that bullshit with the pedigree goes, how can you not see the problem? EVERYONE has seen the pedigree done by H. He's established that as HIS move. KENTA hasn't had that opportunity, and until he had it isn't right for a guy to come along and take as his own.

At least they're calling it the G2S though. SO I can pretend this is a homage like the Plunge was.
My finishing moves while I was a wrestler: Superkick, Sharp Shooter & Shooting Star Press. I really only picked those moves too because of my height it was impressive to see me kick the chins of guys who were a good half foot taller than me (plus it's an easy finish), the Sharp Shooter I did because this one booker made me, and the SSP I did because it's a damn nice flashy move to finish off with. I'm sorry, but I don't think someone can "steal" a move. If you're livelyhood is based off the performance of a single move, you aren't much a wrestler. Besides, as you've pointed out, Kenta will never get over to a large American Audience, and his fallowing in Japan is in no way threatened by Punk. Sure some people can take moves and make them into someone great (Mandible Claw = Mr. Socko, Elbow Drop = People's Elbow) but even there, it was the character that sold the move. The move itself is nothing. If someone is threatened by another wrestler performing a move that they either innovated or have been using for an extended period of time, than that wrestler needs to lose the skirt.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:05 PM   #102
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Hold on one second, explain to me exactly how you feel that wrestling in Japan seem second-rate.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:07 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fugitive
Hold on one second, explain to me exactly how you feel that wrestling in Japan seem second-rate.
The wrestling itself is not second-rate, I said it seems that way in the how its presented.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:08 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fugitive
Hold on one second, explain to me exactly how you feel that wrestling in Japan seem second-rate.
"'Cause they don't speak english."
Last edited by CSL; 04-25-2007 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:08 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor

And as far as that bullshit with the pedigree goes, how can you not see the problem? EVERYONE has seen the pedigree done by H. He's established that as HIS move. KENTA hasn't had that opportunity, and until he had it isn't right for a guy to come along and take as his own.

.
It's not Punk's fault/problem that KENTA isn't exposed to the masses. You're saying he should wait until KENTA is able to establish the move as his to the world. If KENTA never gets big, Punk should not be allowed?
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:11 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Instant Classic
The wrestling itself is not second-rate, I said it seems that way in the how its presented.
And I want to know why you view it like that. Because of the audience? Because of the atmosphere? How exactly is it presented that makes you feel it's second rate.

I'm going to pretend I didn't read your comment, CSL, whether it was a joke or not.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:13 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by The Fugitive
I'm going to pretend I didn't read your comment, CSL, whether it was a joke or not.
I was pointing out that this would be the probable answer.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:14 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fugitive
Right, answer me this. If these guys are so useless, how come they've got recognition, they're wrestling regularly and they're actually getting paid to wrestle instead of telling the promoter 'Hey, I'll be happy to work for free!'?

They must be doing something right, they must be doing something that makes people give a damn about them opposed to Joe Blow who wrestles in a gym in Bumfuck, Idaho who is doing the exact same thing.

By the way, the reason I mentioned bitterness is because I got the impression as I was reading that whole thing of 'I'm resentful towards anyone on the independent circuit or overseas who is actually known to the IWC and meanwhile my entire career, I was stuck in obscurity and people were more concerned with scratching my balls than watching my matches.' Of course, I don't know anything about your career but that was my gut feeling.
LOL. My "career" was a little over a year. I got a fan base, I toured around several states. I did quite well for someone who was only 18 at the time. I was a little guy who agreed to get worked over really rough, and as a result, a few too many guys didn't know what they were doing and after a serious knee injury, I decided I simply didn't want to go back. Trust me when I say I have no regrets about either getting in or getting out and I have no resentment towards others.

I hate elietest bullshit. That's what makes me resentful. People who think that because they like ____ and it's "underground" their taste is somehow better than the guy who likes what popular. When the IWC blows it load for guys like Joe, Punk, Kenta, Danielson, etc...and then other people out of interest look into them and find them to be boring or bland they are called idiots with no taste and no appreciation for skill. When they get on national stages and don't go over, the company is blamed. Or if they get on the national stage and are acceepted, they are "sell outs." That's the kind of shit I hate and find annoying. Hell there are a lot of good workers on the indy scene right now, some of them will be tomorrow's biggest names, most will not. I can tell you right now, Kenta will not.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:16 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL
I was pointing out that this would be the probable answer.
Perhaps, but it's a extremely stupid reason to view it as second-rate. I don't view foreign films as second-rate, just because I can't understand what's being said. If it grips me and entertains me, then it's doing it's job.

On a unrelated note, I find it amusing that we have identical post counts... well, at least until I submit this reply.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:20 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fugitive
Perhaps, but it's a extremely stupid reason to view it as second-rate. I don't view foreign films as second-rate, just because I can't understand what's being said. If it grips me and entertains me, then it's doing it's job.

On a unrelated note, I find it amusing that we have identical post counts... well, at least until I submit this reply.
Ties it up.
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:22 PM   #111
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For some who is a fan of American style pro wrestling (myself being in that group) it would be very easy to label Japan wrestling as crap. It's a totally different kind of working. Equally so if you go to Mexico. It's just a different style. Some people have attempted to bring that Japan flavor to American soil with very little success, or any level of success it has enjoyed as been off the main stream market.

Plus, they don't speak English. And by the way, Foreign films are very much different from American films, and it has to do with how the story is told and who their target audience is. It's why foreign films don't do well. No personally, I love many foreign films, infact I would take an average movie rom Prague over the average LA movie in a heartbeat. But it doesn't change the fact that 97% of people don't give a flying fuck about it, nor do they ever want to give a flying fuck about it. Same goes for Japan wrestling...

And they don't speak English!
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:56 PM   #112
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Christ, you guys need to slow down so I can reply.

CSL, now we're not tied up anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The One
LOL. My "career" was a little over a year. I got a fan base, I toured around several states. I did quite well for someone who was only 18 at the time. I was a little guy who agreed to get worked over really rough, and as a result, a few too many guys didn't know what they were doing and after a serious knee injury, I decided I simply didn't want to go back. Trust me when I say I have no regrets about either getting in or getting out and I have no resentment towards others.
And so my gut feeling was wrong. If you got what you wanted out of wrestling and you enjoyed your time, then it was worthwhile. I apologize if I came off as attacking you but that's the vibe you gave me with that.

Sucks to hear about the knee injury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The One
I hate elietest bullshit. That's what makes me resentful. People who think that because they like ____ and it's "underground" their taste is somehow better than the guy who likes what popular. When the IWC blows it load for guys like Joe, Punk, Kenta, Danielson, etc...and then other people out of interest look into them and find them to be boring or bland they are called idiots with no taste and no appreciation for skill. When they get on national stages and don't go over, the company is blamed. Or if they get on the national stage and are acceepted, they are "sell outs." That's the kind of shit I hate and find annoying. Hell there are a lot of good workers on the indy scene right now, some of them will be tomorrow's biggest names, most will not. I can tell you right now, Kenta will not.
I should be really leaving this for the morning when I can think straight, but what the hell.

I see what you're saying, but I disagree with a few of your points.

By the same argument, when someone blows loads for old Ric Flair footage from the NWA and someone who hears about it, goes back, watches it and is let down, how do you think they feel and what do you think the hyper's reaction is when they're told it's boring? Pretty much the same thing you described above. The person who recommended it is accusing the person of having no appreciation for wrestling and the person who watched it views the other as 'stuck up' and elitist. It's all different tastes for different people, I'll never understand why some people don't get that.

As for the whole 'independent wrestler not getting over because of the company', my mind's a bit fuzzy due to lack of sleep but the only person off the top of my head who might go under that category is Frankie Kazarian and to be honest, anyone who said that was the company's fault is an idiot. Some wrestlers are just destined for the indies. While they look good on the circuit, they might not be able to fit in a company where they have to work a certain style so they appear bland. Now, if they were given a ridicilous gimmick, that's another story.

The whole "sellout" urks me as well, but it's uncommon nowadays. It's mostly "Hope he does really well and makes a mint". I can't think in recent memory when someone's gone "Did you hear that John Smith's leaving XYZ? After all those years here to go to WWE? What a cunt, I hope he gets stuck in OVW". Although, there's a lot of "You watch, 6 months from now, he's going to be IC champion and at Wrestlemania, he'll be WWE and the World Heavyweight Champion " and that's just being a huge mark for the wrestler.

Basically, I think while there's that group of people you describe out there, I think it's a very small minority and not one you should fret about and be resentful towards.

And I don't think anyone can debate that KENTA will one day be mentioned in the same breath as Stu Hart or Harley Race or Shawn Michaels, it's just not going to happen, but he'll probably be mentioned in the same breath as... you know what, I'm not even going to rattle off names because you'll just go 'Who?', am I right?

EDIT: Great, you added more for me to reply to. I'll get back to what you said later.
Last edited by The Fugitive; 04-25-2007 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 04-25-2007, 06:02 PM   #113
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If you plan on listing off Japan wrestlers who aren't Vader, yeah I wouldn't know or care. As for people who go back and watch Flair and are confused, I don't think they're stupid, I wonder what the fuck they were expecting. If you became a fan during the Attitude/TLC era, than yeah, the NWA will probably bore you to tears.
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Old 04-25-2007, 06:09 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The One
It was after viewing Kenta vs. Samoa Joe that I realized that I hate Japan, I hate RoH, and I hate every single smart mark who thinks they're insider and bad ass for liking people who aren't big or popular.
That's ok, they hate you too.

The people you describe aren't especially great, but are they any worse than the people who completely dismiss anything that isn't WWE? Are they any worse than the people who constantly bemoan that same WWE and how the ratings are crap, and nobody likes Cena, and 'OMG I can't believe how bad their booking is, it was so much better in 2000' but absolutely refuse to seek an alternative, or to stop watching altogether?

ANYBODY who makes broad generalisations about ANYTHING ("WWE sucks!" "Indy wrestling sucks!" "Cena sucks!" "I'm better than you because I like Billy Gunn!") is a fucking idiot.

I love how people on here think they are edgy and cool when they criticise 'the IWC' and 'smarks' when just by being here they are exactly what they think they're criticising.

-edit- in about 5 years KENTA will be at the top of what is at the moment the #1 promotion in Japan, so yeah he's going places.
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Old 04-26-2007, 09:06 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL
"'Cause they don't speak english."
And they all look the same.
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Old 04-26-2007, 09:15 AM   #116
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All honesty I realy don't understand this whole Japanese wrestling fad that smart marks have been fellating. All that hype they made for Samoa Joe vs. Kenta, and it was nothing but the two of them chopping each other back and forth for like an hour. And this smaller Kenta that's out now isn't much better. He's a Japanese cruiserweight that chops and kicks hard. No different than Kaz Hayashi from WCW.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:57 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FourFifty
That was a joke, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisat928
First of all, I'm pretty sure Yokozuna was Samoan.
Oh please. You think they'd have given him a Japanese manager, a Japanese flag, a Japanese theme song, and an anti-US/pro Japan gimmick if he WASN'T really Japanese? What kins of hacks do you think were working in the WWF back hten? Christ, next thing you're going to tell me wrestling is fake!
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:58 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Monday Morning
-edit- in about 5 years KENTA will be at the top of what is at the moment the #1 promotion in Japan, so yeah he's going places.
Yeah, good for him. That's kind of like being the king of Lichtenstein. You get a lot of props at home, but nobody outside the borders gives a damn.
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Old 04-26-2007, 12:00 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthTedious
Oh please. You think they'd have given him a Japanese manager, a Japanese flag, a Japanese theme song, and an anti-US/pro Japan gimmick if he WASN'T really Japanese? What kins of hacks do you think were working in the WWF back hten? Christ, next thing you're going to tell me wrestling is fake!
It's still really to me, damnit?
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Old 04-26-2007, 01:49 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthTedious
Yeah, good for him. That's kind of like being the king of Lichtenstein. You get a lot of props at home, but nobody outside the borders gives a damn.
In 5 years the internet will have turned the whole planet into one giant country, so you're wrong there.
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