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Old 07-02-2013, 05:54 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
Okay, so I dug out Foley's 1st book and checked the part where he talks about HIAC 98. When originally discussing it with Funker, he suggests starting on top of the cell and being thrown off and Foley responds with 'Yeah, then I could climb back up-and he could throw me off again'. It's in a joking way to start with but the Funk bit finishes with "after a while I got serious and said quietly to Terry 'I think I can do it'. Also, just the way he talks about it combined with the fact he doesn't once mention it wasn't planned (which I'm pretty sure he would if that was the case) confirms it for me
I was actually just looking for his book because I don't remember him mentioning it in there. That is a pretty big sign if he didn't. It would also make sense that as the legend of the second fall being unplanned grows, he would go along with it.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:54 PM   #82
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Who is driving the debate though? I pretty much bought Foley's story from the start. Hell, upon my 68th reading of Have a Nice Day I probably had created memories of the match that didn't belong to me.
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Old 07-02-2013, 07:25 PM   #83
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Wink
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTS View Post




"That panel wasn't supposed to break loose."
-Mark Calloway
wrestlers always tell the truth, especially to "outsiders". Even more so those that came through in the 80's.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:04 PM   #84
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So your proof that he's lying is because sometimes people lie.

Gotcha.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:14 PM   #85
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I think some people want to believe so badly that they're in the know that they invent controversy where there is none. It can't be that Mick Foley legitimately could have died in the ring that night because of an unplanned accident, it has to be that it was all part of wrestling magic. Wink wink.
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Old 07-02-2013, 09:32 PM   #86
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It's a business that was built on blurring the line between fantasy and reality. I don't think CSL was saying that to prove his point. He was saying it to explain that Taker's words shouldn't be taken as proof either. It's far from illogical to doubt it when people say "No, THAT wasn't part of the script, though."

And like I said, I don't remember Foley mentioning that it was unplanned in his first book and I don't remember hearing about it supposedly being unplanned until years later. If he didn't mention it until then, I definitely call bullshit.
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Old 07-02-2013, 09:37 PM   #87
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I think Mark Calloway's words should be taken as proof. I don't see the motivation behind lying about this.
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:00 PM   #88
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He doesn't ever say it was planned.

Terry Funk, Mick Foley and Undertaker all say it wasn't supposed to happen that way.

"The cage ripping and giving way was a complete surprise to both of us, and it did a lot of damage."
-Mick Foley 2004

"That panel wasn't supposed to break loose."
-Mark Calloway 2002

"The props guy didn't rig it properly, so when Undertaker gave him the choke slam, Cactus went right through the roof"
-Terry Funk 2006
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:25 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
wrestlers always tell the truth, especially to "outsiders". Even more so those that came through in the 80's.
Who the fuck would lie about something like that? What benefit would there be to it?
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:00 AM   #90
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Mick Foley: Mark, after that second bump tonight I want you to promise me on your dear wife Sara's life not to tell anyone that we planned for me to fall through the cage and get a concussion. Also make sure the steel chair falls onto my face and knocks a tooth out.

Mark Calloway: Only if Terry promises as well.

Terry Funk: Well, that goes without saying.

Mark Calloway: Fine. I promise to always present the second bump, which we don't even know you'll get to have because of the seriousness of the first bump in which I throw you off the steel cage, possible onto the teleprompters on the spanish announce table, as a pure accident despite the fact that we totally planned it. We'll all just blame it on bad rigging or something.

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Old 07-03-2013, 12:39 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Hasney View Post
I mean come on, people have actually climbed down in matches before. It's like asking "If JFK didn't plan to be shot, how else was he going to end his car ride?"
I still love this post.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:11 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTS View Post
So your proof that he's lying is because sometimes people lie.

Gotcha.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTS View Post
I think some people want to believe so badly that they're in the know that they invent controversy where there is none. It can't be that Mick Foley legitimately could have died in the ring that night because of an unplanned accident, it has to be that it was all part of wrestling magic. Wink wink.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTS View Post
I think Mark Calloway's words should be taken as proof. I don't see the motivation behind lying about this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTS View Post
He doesn't ever say it was planned.

Terry Funk, Mick Foley and Undertaker all say it wasn't supposed to happen that way.

"The cage ripping and giving way was a complete surprise to both of us, and it did a lot of damage."
-Mick Foley 2004

"That panel wasn't supposed to break loose."
-Mark Calloway 2002

"The props guy didn't rig it properly, so when Undertaker gave him the choke slam, Cactus went right through the roof"
-Terry Funk 2006
the concept of kayfabe appears to be completely and utterly lost on you or you have no idea what it really means. Yes, everybody knows it's scripted, especially in this day and age but that doesn't mean it's an open book. Jesus christ, it's blatantly a planned spot, the entire match structure builds up to it for fuck's sake. Do you really think there'd have been the world's weakest looking chokeslam planned AFTER that first bump? That makes as little sense as the your posts right now. Look at how the spot comes about, straight up, grabs him, chokeslam, practically out of nowhere. No thoughts of anything else because it didn't matter, get to the big bump already before you have chance to 8th and 9th guess it and wind up making it even worse. Foley doesn't even come off his feet because he's looking to protect himself and take the safest possible bump through the cage. Next thing you'll be coming in here asking whether Hogan really tore every muscle in his back slamming the 900lb Andre the Giant at WrestleMania.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedious View Post
Who the fuck would lie about something like that? What benefit would there be to it?
why the fuck would he be all "yeah, that was planned" if some people think there's a chance it might not have been? Just because the business has been exposed to an unprecedented level over the last 10-15 years doesn't mean that every person inside of it is willing to share every detail anybody might want to know. In fact if anything, it's things like this that are the exact opposite of that, where guys almost get the chance to revel in working somebody. What benefit would there have been for him to not lie about it? You work almost everybody you can as often as possible except for "the boys", it's practically a given right of being in the wrestling business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTS View Post
Mick Foley: Mark, after that second bump tonight I want you to promise me on your dear wife Sara's life not to tell anyone that we planned for me to fall through the cage and get a concussion. Also make sure the steel chair falls onto my face and knocks a tooth out.

Mark Calloway: Only if Terry promises as well.

Terry Funk: Well, that goes without saying.

Mark Calloway: Fine. I promise to always present the second bump, which we don't even know you'll get to have because of the seriousness of the first bump in which I throw you off the steel cage, possible onto the teleprompters on the spanish announce table, as a pure accident despite the fact that we totally planned it. We'll all just blame it on bad rigging or something.

All Together (chanting): For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business.
this may be the stupidest post I have ever seen from you.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:28 PM   #93
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It was probably a weak looking chokeslam since they both couldn't stand the same panel at once.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:33 PM   #94
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LOL, It's still real for CSL, dammit.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:36 PM   #95
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I've never seen people try so hard to make people who disbelieve a baseless conspiracy theory feel like they're dumb. I include 9/11 Truthers, Holocaust Deniers and Chem-trail experts in that statement.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:39 PM   #96
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Mick Foley: Mark, after that second bump tonight I want you to promise me on your dear wife Sara's life not to tell anyone that we planned for me to fall through the cage and get a concussion. Also make sure the steel chair falls onto my face and knocks a tooth out.

Mark Calloway: Only if Terry promises as well.

Terry Funk: Well, that goes without saying.

Mark Calloway: Fine. I promise to always present the second bump, which we don't even know you'll get to have because of the seriousness of the first bump in which I throw you off the steel cage, possible onto the teleprompters on the spanish announce table, as a pure accident despite the fact that we totally planned it. We'll all just blame it on bad rigging or something.

CSL: I too will take the truth to my grave. *crosses fingers*

Mick Foley: Who the fuck are you?

Terry Funk: Some British Vanilla midget I picked up. Don't worry guys, he'll protect our secret...FOR THE BUSINESS!

All Together (chanting): For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:54 PM   #97
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CSL: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:57 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savior View Post
CSL: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"
Also: "That which can be asserted without proof is kayfabe, and also yeah, of course almost killing Mick Foley was part of the plan for the match."
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:52 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTS View Post
LOL, It's still real for CSL, dammit.
This is a very ironic thing to say considering he's on the side of "it wasn't real, dammit"...
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:54 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
Next thing you'll be coming in here asking whether Hogan really tore every muscle in his back slamming the 900lb Andre the Giant at WrestleMania.
Well, Hogan did say it, therefore it's been proven as fact. I mean... what reason would he have to lie???
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Old 07-03-2013, 07:20 PM   #101
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Blue Blazer was supposed to fall to his death. Yoose guys are marks for beleevin' he's dead.
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Old 07-03-2013, 07:37 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
This is a very ironic thing to say considering he's on the side of "it wasn't real, dammit"...
He actually isn't. CSL is pretending that he is an authority on old-school American wrestling culture. He's taking the "wrestling nerd smark" road here, giving us a wink and telling us he know's what's up. Only here it's completely unfounded and embarrassing just like the crying old school fan in his fifties.

I'm making a reasonable conclusion based on the facts we know:

1. Three major players in the events have all said the second bump wasn't supposed to go down the way it did. Mark Calloway in an out-of-character interview. Mick Foley in an out-of-character book. Terry Funk in an out-of-character book.

2. That bump could have very easily killed Mick Foley.

3. The theory that the second bump was planned comes from the internet and not any source connected to the match.

4. The motivation for lying about that second bump is non-existent. It adds zero drama or amazement to the match whether or not it was planned or unplanned.

Is there anyone who doubts that Foley suffered a concussion from the fall? Or that he received the injuries he listed in his book? Was he supposed to lose his ear in Germany as well? Was D-Lo supposed to paralyze Droz?

Even if it was planned, it was a dumb idea and I would have expected both Foley and Taker to have had a little more respect for each other and the profession.

The real point "smarks" should take away from this discussion is that they don't know everything. There's no such thing as a "smart mark" and rolling your eyes at Foley going through the cage says more about the person doing it than anything about the business of professional wrestling.
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Old 07-03-2013, 07:55 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Hasney View Post
I mean come on, people have actually climbed down in matches before. It's like asking "If JFK didn't plan to be shot, how else was he going to end his car ride?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
Foley and Taker agreed that to top the original hell in a cell match, a good way to start it would be on the top of the cage, and also with a huge spot. The start was planned with him throwing Foley off the top. It then would have wound up in the cell or whatever.

However, as we know that first fall was a lot further than they thought it would be, and he landed badly. After being knocked out, he impulsively went back up there to restart the match up on top where it was supposed to start.

As you could see early on, the roof of the cage wasn't supporting the weight of the two sizely men. The cell had never been traveled to the top of, so it wasn't engineered for that. They had no clue it would be so vulnerable. As you can see a few times they almost go through on their own weight and begin to use careful footing on the structural beams instead of the chainlink panels.

The chokeslam, which was pretty dumb of them (especially the conscious taker) knowing the weakness of the cell just from their own weight, naturally broke the cage material and he fell unexpectedly to the mat.

And in response to whoever said it was rigged with hinges, you are wrong. The future hell in a cells that used the same spot were hinged. This one was purely an accident, and as you can see the cage rips and doesnt do so very neatly.
It appears the cage was attached to the structure with twist ties, probably metal ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme Olajuwon View Post
Motivation for bumping this thread: http://deadspin.com/hey-its-15-years...-thr-611685778
This actually destroys CSL's and WWF's fantasy version of events pretty well.

"Because this fall was unplanned and uncontrolled, it was immensely more dangerous than the first. This time, no snappy patter from Ross. Just a yelp from Jerry Lawler, and silence until it was clear that Foley was still moving."
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:40 PM   #104
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Wow.

DESTROYS IT.

I actually don't have a "fantasy version" of the events and have only pointed out reasons why Taker and Foley WOULD go along with it if it was planned and that Foley not mentioning the fact that it was unplanned in his book is a big point in CSL's favor. Your "proofs" that "destroy" the other side of Taker saying it wasn't planned and Jim Ross' commentary being uncharacteristic are fucking facepalm-worthy though.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:46 PM   #105
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So Randy Savage slept with Steph?
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:49 PM   #106
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I don't know. Ask The Undertaker.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:40 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Wow.

DESTROYS IT.

I actually don't have a "fantasy version" of the events and have only pointed out reasons why Taker and Foley WOULD go along with it if it was planned and that Foley not mentioning the fact that it was unplanned in his book is a big point in CSL's favor. Your "proofs" that "destroy" the other side of Taker saying it wasn't planned and Jim Ross' commentary being uncharacteristic are fucking facepalm-worthy though.
If you don't have a fantasy version, then why are you arguing?

I'm merely pointing out that assuming Foley and Taker lie about planning the second bump is assuming you know Foley and Taker better than what they have revealed to people via media and interviews. You don't, I don't. Your whole reason for disbelieving them is because they're wrestlers.

You disbelieve the man as a default who wrote:

Quote:
Now, we should probably get something straight. I know you didn't pay $25 (unless your cheap ass waited for the paperback) to have your intelligence insulted. I will not try to portray professional wrestling as being a "real, competitive sport." I will readily admit to occasionally stomping my foot on the mat, and always placing a greater emphasis on entertainment value than on winning. I have, however, over the course of fifteen years of blood, sweat, and tears, compiled a list of injuries that I would compare to that of any "legitimate" athlete.
And let's look at your "argument":
Quote:
Foley not mentioning the fact that it was unplanned in his book is a big point in CSL's favor.
Not even worthy of Loose Change of 9/11 Truther fame. He didn't feel the need to mention that losing his ear was unplanned either. Notice that he also didn't mention that it was planned. He also didn't mention his raging erection so I guess you and CSL believed he had a planned boner which to this day Undertaker and Terry Funk will swear was just an unscripted rush of blood to his penis.



Sound more legitimately real than



Quote:
Your "proofs" that "destroy" the other side of Taker saying it wasn't planned and Jim Ross' commentary being uncharacteristic are fucking facepalm-worthy though.
I didn't cite any "proofs". I cited an explanation that to any reasonable person is vastly more plausible than the secret old-school wrestling conspiracy you and CSL have concocted in your heads.



All I know for sure is if Undertaker's lying here it's the best acting of his career.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:44 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savior View Post
So Randy Savage slept with Steph?
No, since there's actually a rumor about that and Randy Savage never said he didn't do it we can, using WWF's logic, we can now conclude his innocence. Only in cases with absolutely no evidence and where the claim is based completely on unsubstantiated speculation can we assign guilt, especially when the claim is disputed.

If Randy Savage had said he didn't sleep with Stephanie McMahon it would have been proof that he was lying and that the penetration had been scripted by Vince.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:49 PM   #109
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There's no way they would have had that chair there if the they thought it could give way. The table saved Foley from death but the chair made it 10000 times worse.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:58 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTS View Post
I didn't cite any "proofs".
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTS View Post
I think Mark Calloway's words should be taken as proof.
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:01 AM   #111
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what a silly fucking thing to argue about, guys.
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:16 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTS View Post
I think Mark Calloway's words should be taken as proof. I don't see the motivation behind lying about this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTS View Post
I didn't cite any "proofs". I cited an explanation that to any reasonable person is vastly more plausible than the secret old-school wrestling conspiracy you and CSL have concocted in your heads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Your "proofs" that "destroy" the other side of Taker saying it wasn't planned and Jim Ross' commentary being uncharacteristic are fucking facepalm-worthy though.

You're doing it wrong.

I didn't cite "proofs" to "destroy" your version of events. I cited an explanation. That I think Undertaker's words should be taken as evidence toward the great possibility that the second bump was unplanned is not what I used to "destroy" anything.

So you searched the thread for a single instance of me using the word "proof" and what did it get you?

Nowhere. In no way is it likely that you were referring to my mention of Undertaker's assertion as the proof to destroy "the other side of Taker saying it wasn't planned".

Maybe you meant something else?
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:26 AM   #113
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I'm talking about both points together. Your use of the words "proof" and "destroy" for stuff that clearly isn't "proof" and clearly doesn't "destroy" anything are horribly obvious ways of trying to use strong language to try to make your points seem more valid. You're better than that. Taker saying it is not proof and JR's reaction does not destroy anything. You know that. It's on par with trying to compare the idea of wrestlers keeping kayfabe with 9/11 conspiracy theories. Come on.
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:45 AM   #114
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Well then you missed some points. Terry Funk, Mick Foley and Undertaker all said the same thing years apart from each other. It contradicts your theory, of course.

What destroys it is the fact that there exists a much better theory to explain the situation.

The facts fit that theory.

There are no facts that support the conspiracy theory that you and CSL have latched onto. That even assertions by the people involved are to be taken as proof supporting their "guilt" is fairly ridiculous even within the dumb context that CSL is suggesting of them "protecting the business" because they all came up in the 80s (except Funk who has been around since the 30s).

The idea that you can't believe a wrestler writing his memoirs or talking in a legitimate interview based on some old-school stereotype is silly, especially when so much that Mick Foley has already written and said himself contradicts that premise.

There's simply no real reason, aside from the desire to feel and appear like an insider in professional wrestling to disbelieve Foley's, Undertaker's and Funk's assertion that the second bump was unplanned.

It certainly was the most reckless bump in Foley's and Undertaker's combined careers. No intelligent person would have seen the risk there as worth the reward. Take out the second bump, take out Foley climbing the cage a second time and the EMTs and referees in the ring and the match would actually have considerably better pacing while still telling the same story.

It would have been amazing if there had been more back and forth and maybe even an extra kick-out or two by Mankind before it was finished. We didn't need the second bump. The second bump could have ended the match and Foley's life. If the cage panel had fallen differently Foley would have landed on top of his skull. Would Undertaker really do that to a good friend? Risk his career so that Foley could live on as the Hardcore Legend?
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:58 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTS View Post
There are no facts that support the conspiracy theory that you and CSL have latched onto. That even assertions by the people involved are to be taken as proof supporting their "guilt"
I hate to steal others catchphrases here...

But you've been stuck in strawman mode for this entire page. I explained very clearly earlier how CSL and myself were not saying "Taker saying it was unplanned proves it was planned" but instead "Taker saying it was unplanned doesn't prove it was unplanned". And now you've come BACK to the "assertions by people involved are taken to be proof supporting their guilt" thing. You're so stuck in this strawman you've become impossible to talk to.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:10 AM   #116
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You were wrong when you explained that. CSL clearly believes the second bump was planned and has stated it several times since 2008. By latching onto him in this thread you associate yourself with his claim.

It's guilt by association.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:14 AM   #117
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lol, I misread you. Irony.

You didn't explain it very clearly, because you're not arguing the same thing as CSL in this instance. You, personally, say that beliebing wrestlers like Taker, Foley and Funk doesn't "prove" anything. Which, if you were being reasonable, it certainly does leans strongly toward the side of "proving".

You have three people all involved with consistent stories in the face of absolutely zero evidence to contradict their stories.

CSL, in fact, is all about his "old-school" theory that guys like Taker are just looking for ways to pull one over the fans.

While your assertion is wrong, his is more wrong.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:26 AM   #118
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:28 AM   #119
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:30 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ron the dial View Post
*grand jack off gestures and cum tosses abound*
Never before has someone so eloquently and accurately described the wrestling forum.
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