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Old 04-06-2009, 01:23 AM   #1
Loose Cannon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero View Post
Heels don't draw anyway. The faces they feud with draw.
I agree, but the faces are the ones that usually build the heels up, to where those heels soon become the top babyfaces.
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Old 04-06-2009, 09:12 AM   #2
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Heels don't draw anyway. The faces they feud with draw.



Possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen Xero post.
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Old 04-06-2009, 10:58 AM   #3
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Possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen Xero post.
We're dealing with a different time period, and a different demographic now. Whether you want to admit it or not, Cena HHH and Jeff Hardy are filling the seats and moving the merchandise.
Edge and Orton are just their foils. Just like Hogan-Piper
To be honest, it's a wonder they even get title reigns.
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:15 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
We're dealing with a different time period, and a different demographic now. Whether you want to admit it or not, Cena HHH and Jeff Hardy are filling the seats and moving the merchandise.
Edge and Orton are just their foils. Just like Hogan-Piper
To be honest, it's a wonder they even get title reigns.
yea poor piper never got the world belt, and like piper said people watched wrestlemainia 1 to see hogan kick pipers ass.
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Old 04-06-2009, 12:28 PM   #5
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Possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen Xero post.
HUGE exception, not the rule.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:25 AM   #6
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What I'm gathering from this thread is the ONLY way for Orton to get over and "get made" is to win at WrestleMania. Bullshit. If Orton comes out of the second half of this feud dominating he will be huge.

You have to remember that things are different now and WrestleMania is rarely the end of long-term feuds anymore.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:32 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Xero View Post
What I'm gathering from this thread is the ONLY way for Orton to get over and "get made" is to win at WrestleMania. Bullshit. If Orton comes out of the second half of this feud dominating he will be huge.


So why put it off? If you're going to make the star, why not do it at the biggest show of the year? That's like having Austin job to HBK and winning the title at Judgement Day.

I'm not arguing your logic, I follow where you're coming from, just questioning the E's logic
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:39 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by dablackguy View Post
So why put it off? If you're going to make the star, why not do it at the biggest show of the year? That's like having Austin job to HBK and winning the title at Judgement Day.

I'm not arguing your logic, I follow where you're coming from, just questioning the E's logic
There's a world of diffrence between Austin at Wrestlemania XIV and Orton at Wrestlemania XXV.

That big difference is that Austin was a face Orton is a heel...

Heels lose on the big stage its the rule of the buisness.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:43 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by The Show Off View Post
There's a world of diffrence between Austin at Wrestlemania XIV and Orton at Wrestlemania XXV.

That big difference is that Austin was a face Orton is a heel...

Heels lose on the big stage its the rule of the buisness.
A. You agreed he got buried but then say he loses nothing from it. Ok.....

B. You're looking too deep into it. The main idea is if you're going to make the star do it on the big stage. Perhaps they could have built Orton up as a tweener or maybe teased the turn, I dk how they should have done it.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:46 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by dablackguy View Post
A. You agreed he got buried but then say he loses nothing from it. Ok.....

B. You're looking too deep into it. The main idea is if you're going to make the star do it on the big stage. Perhaps they could have built Orton up as a tweener or maybe teased the turn, I dk how they should have done it.
I never said that he got buried I agreed with a quote by Xero which had more than just the "he got buried" part which was the part I was agreeing with.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:43 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Show Off View Post
There's a world of diffrence between Austin at Wrestlemania XIV and Orton at Wrestlemania XXV.

That big difference is that Austin was a face Orton is a heel...

Heels lose on the big stage its the rule of the buisness.
I would agree with that, but who was one of the first people to break that tradition of faces winning??? HHH in 2000. But even The Rock was booked better that year due to the McMahons screwing him over.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:47 AM   #12
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I would agree with that, but who was one of the first people to break that tradition of faces winning??? HHH in 2000. But even The Rock was booked better that year due to the McMahons screwing him over.
And now name me what other heel won in the main even of Wrestlemania...
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:51 AM   #13
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I think all you kliq guys are missing the point entirely. People aren't hating on the finish just because Triple H won. You said yourself, this isn't 2003 anymore. People don't like it, because Triple H winning, really doesn't accomplish anything. Orton has been a great heel the past year, but he still doesn't seem like a threat on the same level as HHH, Cena, HBK, and the other top guys. Beating HHH at mania would have changed that.

And yeah, the feud will continue, and he will probably beat HHH for the title, but it won't have the same effect. As WWKD said, mania makes stars. It pushes people to a new level, in a way that other ppv's can't.

If you can't see that....if you can't see that people are dissapointed with the backwards thinking booking of the finish, and not triple h himself, then you need to get your head out of his ass.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
I think all you kliq guys are missing the point entirely. People aren't hating on the finish just because Triple H won. You said yourself, this isn't 2003 anymore. People don't like it, because Triple H winning, really doesn't accomplish anything. Orton has been a great heel the past year, but he still doesn't seem like a threat on the same level as HHH, Cena, HBK, and the other top guys. Beating HHH at mania would have changed that.

And yeah, the feud will continue, and he will probably beat HHH for the title, but it won't have the same effect. As WWKD said, mania makes stars. It pushes people to a new level, in a way that other ppv's can't.

If you can't see that....if you can't see that people are dissapointed with the backwards thinking booking of the finish, and not triple h himself, then you need to get your head out of his ass.
I have stated that Orton winning would have been a good thing (hell I was shocked he didn't), but points have been brought up that this is the end of Randy Orton and somehow it is always Triple H who screws him out of a big win and now he has been robbed of the career making "WrestleMania moment" win despite him beating Cena and HHH just last year clean.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:42 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero View Post
What I'm gathering from this thread is the ONLY way for Orton to get over and "get made" is to win at WrestleMania. Bullshit. If Orton comes out of the second half of this feud dominating he will be huge.

You have to remember that things are different now and WrestleMania is rarely the end of long-term feuds anymore.
I understand where you are coming from, but can we agree that Mania is the biggest PPV of the year?

They book Orton to win the Rumble, they book Orton to take out the McMahons. They book HHH to come back and avenge the McMahons.

To me, Orton has to come out looking like the winner, and that doesn't have to mean actually winning the match. But he should of at least been made to look above HHH on the biggest stage

And you're right, Mania does not end things anymore, but it's still Mania. And when they seemed intent on giving Orton a huge push, this match really could of helped progress that push on a big way. It hindered it....yet again, rather then helping it. That's all I'm saying
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:26 AM   #16
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Might I add it feels so weird being on the side of Xero & James Steel and against Loose Cannon after reading all those Kliq/Bret Hart threads.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:29 AM   #17
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God, you people will find any reason to bitch about Triple H. It isn't 2003 anymore.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:31 AM   #18
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God, you people will find any reason to bitch about Triple H. It isn't 2003 anymore.
lol, how ironic

you're right, this isn't 2003, yet the guy is still walking out of Mania with the belt.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:34 AM   #19
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Quote:
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lol, how ironic

you're right, this isn't 2003, yet the guy is still walking out of Mania with the belt.
He is still one of the best in the business and a draw, so what is there to complain about? Other than Evil Paul booking himself to win the main event because we all know Triple H really runs the show!

I agree that Orton winning would have been a positive, but this isn't the end of Orton's career or any chance of him being "the man" since I honestly don't believe Orton is talented enough to be "the man".
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:34 AM   #20
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I wouldnt even be that upset with Orton losing if it wasnt for history. HHH has proven time and time again that Orton should not make him look weak in any matter. HHH has beaten him on numerous ppvs. And the time that Orton actually did beat HHH for the titie, was when HHH already had 3 matches that night. Orton can only recover so many times from getting buried. Its becoming a pattern that whenever Orton gets built up, he will get knocked down.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:35 AM   #21
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I wouldnt even be that upset with Orton losing if it wasnt for history. HHH has proven time and time again that Orton should not make him look weak in any matter. HHH has beaten him on numerous ppvs. And the time that Orton actually did beat HHH for the titie, was when HHH already had 3 matches that night. Orton can only recover so many times from getting buried. Its becoming a pattern that whenever Orton gets built up, he will get knocked down.
It is called being a good heel (now), or a shitty babyface (04).
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:45 AM   #22
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and yes, all you guys are correct in saying this isn't the end of Orton's career. But the bookers or whomever need to start getting off thier asses and start putting guys on the levels of HBK, HHH and Taker, because they won't be around for much longer.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:52 AM   #23
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and yes, all you guys are correct in saying this isn't the end of Orton's career. But the bookers or whomever need to start getting off thier asses and start putting guys on the levels of HBK, HHH and Taker, because they won't be around for much longer.
I agree with that.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:47 AM   #24
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I'm with LC on this is part of the problem

The business 101 is that established guys put over the yuong stars to help them gain credibilty, we don't see much of it here, sadly
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:47 AM   #25
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Storyline-wise you can say HHH is supposed to win to avenge what happened with his family. But in the early part of the storyline, they said Orton needed to avenge what happened in 2004, and the broken collarbone from last year. Wrestlemania is supposed to be the place where the person chasing the title finally wins it, but that did not happen now.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:50 AM   #26
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Steve Austin the very next year at X-Seven (nobody bitched then) and John Cena in 2006 and 2007
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:52 AM   #27
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Steve Austin the very next year at X-Seven (nobody bitched then) and John Cena in 2006 and 2007

Austin went in face, to be fair


Cena can't even be judged in those terms, Vince books him as a face. Most of us fans however treat him otherwise
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:52 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Steve Austin the very next year at X-Seven (nobody bitched then) and John Cena in 2006 and 2007
Austin was the face going in to that match.

John Cena was supposed to be the face at least in those matches.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:50 AM   #29
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The Xero quote:

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You're right, Orton was buried. I will not deny that (though he isn't destroyed). But from a "classic" storyline standpoint, it makes complete sense for Triple H to go over.
Although like you said, if he doesn't go over in the near future, you'll join us in our "furiousity"

See you in 2 or 3 months? lol
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:55 AM   #30
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I'm going to say this one more time...

Randy Orton defeated John Cena AND Triple H at Wrestlemania 24.

CLEANLY!

That was his rub...

That was where his star was made...

On the biggest stage of them all.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:58 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Show Off View Post
I'm going to say this one more time...

Randy Orton defeated John Cena AND Triple H at Wrestlemania 24.

CLEANLY!

That was his rub...

That was where his star was made...

On the biggest stage of them all.
EXACTLY!
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:03 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Show Off View Post
I'm going to say this one more time...

Randy Orton defeated John Cena AND Triple H at Wrestlemania 24.

CLEANLY!

That was his rub...

That was where his star was made...

On the biggest stage of them all.
I will agree to a point. But that was not the main event, and triple threats are booked to which anyone can get a pinfall. This was a bigger match situation, and Orton didnt get it done.

But even last year, Orton was not getting as big of a rub as he was this year. As champion, he cheated or barely made it through his matches. Jeff was really the only one he beat clean.

Now this year, Orton has much more momentum. He wins the Royal Rumble, he takes out the McMahon family, hes never looked stronger. Just something like this seems to kill his credibilty. Not to mention his past with HHH proves that he cant beat HHH.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:57 AM   #33
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yeah has everyone forgotten WM 24?

SPOILER: show
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:59 AM   #34
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It isn't Vince's fault Randy Orton can't take advantage of all the oppurtunities to be "the man" he has been given.
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:05 AM   #35
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Quote:
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It isn't Vince's fault Randy Orton can't take advantage of all the oppurtunities to be "the man" he has been given.
He's been outstanding the past year. And to my knowledge he hasn't shit in anyone's personal belongings lately. So what exactly is the justification for that comment?
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:14 AM   #36
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He's been outstanding the past year. And to my knowledge he hasn't shit in anyone's personal belongings lately. So what exactly is the justification for that comment?
Randy Orton isn't good enough to be "the man" in WWE.
Last edited by James Steele; 04-06-2009 at 02:27 AM.
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:03 AM   #37
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Winning a triple threat match, and beating triple h one-on-one, especially the way the triple h/orton fued has been booked, are two very different things.

Look at all the guys who won the title at mania in a triple threat match. Mysterio, Benoit. wow, they sure stayed in main event for a long time, didn't they? I think they both were fighting for the us title 6 months after they won at mania.


So no juan. Not EXACTLY.
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:06 AM   #38
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Quote:
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Winning a triple threat match, and beating triple h one-on-one, especially the way the triple h/orton fued has been booked, are two very different things.

Look at all the guys who won the title at mania in a triple threat match. Mysterio, Benoit. wow, they sure stayed in main event for a long time, didn't they? I think they both were fighting for the us title 6 months after they won at mania.


So no juan. Not EXACTLY.
Yeah but it's been a year since the triple threat match, and Randy Orton is STILL one of the top heels in the company, and to my knowledge hasn't competed for anything but the WWE title since.
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:21 AM   #39
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He's been pushed into the role of top heel before, yes. But it always seemed kind of forced, and he never seemed quite on the same level as the guys he was up against. At least not to me, and it seems many other posters here. The past 6 months or so have been the first time that orton has been booked in such a way that he seemed like he could beat anyone. Unstoppable.

And yeah, I agree that the comments about orton being completely finished are exaggerating, but this did kill his momentum, and it will take a while for him to believeably get it back again. He can't just come out and beat HHH next week, cause it will feel forced, just like most of his time in the main event.
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:27 AM   #40
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He was the whole reason for Evolution, and then was cemented by Mick Foley. Randy Orton then became the youngest World Champion by beating Chris Benoit at the 2nd largest show of the year, but maybe instead of Triple H beating him just to be Evil Paul, Vince McMahon realized that Randy Orton wasn't ready in the ring or on the microphone to be "the man". Randy Orton was then given a huge program with Undertaker, but of course he still wasn't made. Randy Orton was then moved to SmackDown! where he was one of the headliners at WrestleMania 22, but of course he wasn't made then either (he also wrestled Hulk Hogan at SummerSlam in 06, but he lost so of course he wouldn't have been made).Rated RKO vs DX was a good program (he was in the MITB match, but he didn't win so he wasn't made then either). Then from the October of 2007 until Backlash of 2008, he was WWE Champion. Of course, at WrestleMania XXIV he beat Triple H and John Cena to retain his title. Of course, that doesn't matter because he lost at Backlash...so it pissed all over him and he wasn't a star. Then he got injured, and was out for awhile. Upon Randy's return, he had a short thing with Batista and went onto to hot streak he has been on until TRIPLE H SHAT ALL OVER HIM.

What fucking more does Randy Orton need to be solidified as one of the top stars in WWE? He is already a top star in the WWE, and will be the future of the company but he will never be "the torchbearer' because his mic work isn't good enough to play a babyface and his ring work is still not on the same level as HHH, HBK, Taker, etc.
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