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Old 03-04-2009, 10:05 PM   #121
Funky Fly
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IAN ROTTEN IS GREAT BECAUSE EVERYONE SAYS HE SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:06 PM   #122
Fabien Barthez
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It really is elitist bollocks to be making a list based on the amount of basic mat wrestling you do in a match, or whether it is puro style or not.

Wrestling is what it is. If you rate wrestlers based on whether they appear to be legitimately kicking the fuck out of each other, watch MMA. If wrestling didn't have the fantasy element, I question whether my interest would be nearly as deep.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:06 PM   #123
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I think bell to bell one valid way to look at it. Personally, I judge everything but "bell to bell" means more than you give it credit for.
Bell to bell doesn't neccesarily only constitute technical skills, or athleticism. A lot goes into working a match. Charisma and the ability to communicate yourself with the crowd is important during the match, not just outside of it. Someone like Ric Flair or Shawn Michaels is able to work the crowd. This goes for all heels and faces. Things occur during the course of a match that don't begin with a lockup.
There's also the storytelling/psychology department. This also occurs during the course of the match.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:08 PM   #124
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Jeff and Matt Hardy have gotten over for their "bell to bell" skills. They're not the greatest technical workers in the world, but their work in the ring is what has endeared them. Both can work a crowd, but neither can work the stick. Do you like them?

Not everyone who is strong "bell to bell" is vanilla.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:11 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabien Barthez View Post
It really is elitist bollocks to be making a list based on the amount of basic mat wrestling you do in a match, or whether it is puro style or not.

Wrestling is what it is. If you rate wrestlers based on whether they appear to be legitimately kicking the fuck out of each other, watch MMA. If wrestling didn't have the fantasy element, I question whether my interest would be nearly as deep.
That is your prefference as an indiviadual. You are no more in the right the right than the bell to bell guy.

Thus the "define wrestler" debate.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:15 PM   #126
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Erm, Your last 2 posts don't actually make sence when read dest, and in addition, I think I am both guys you are refering to here.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:18 PM   #127
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They make perfect sense to me minus the bit where I re-typed that one part by mistake.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:20 PM   #128
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Tell me someone gets me.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:20 PM   #129
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an explanation of Destor's posts: Ultimo Tiger's list makes sense based on the way that he perceives and enjoys wrestling. he's clearly all about independent mat based work (he claims). other people (Fabien Barthez, i will assume) do not enjoy wrestling the same way and determine greatness based on other factors. this does not mean that one man is more right than the other, just that they have different tastes. that is not the problem. the problem is using your criteria of greatness to act as though your opinion is superior to someone else's. which is what Ultimo Tiger is ultimately trying to do here.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:21 PM   #130
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yeah man, sorry. i re-read the 2nd last one.... im really quite drunk and its 3.30am here. forgive me.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:22 PM   #131
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thank you SeXy WeXy
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:22 PM   #132
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These were taken by multiple peoples votes presumably. Either way though, yea it's all "opinion."
Personally, I have a hard time understanding it on any level of logical thinking, but they're entitled to it.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:23 PM   #133
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multiple people who post on the same board and i'm sure have very similar tastes in style and execution. i'd imagine a list compiled by tpww would be torn apart in a similar manner over there.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:24 PM   #134
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Def. Message boards seem to be hive minded.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:25 PM   #135
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I agree with you. I'm just perplexed by the reasoning
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:26 PM   #136
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i'm ok with their treatment of most ROH guys, though.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:27 PM   #137
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I didn't even give the list shit. These are the first thoughts I've expressed on the matter
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:28 PM   #138
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I am a bit shocked that there is a gathering of multiple people who find Mark Henry to be among the best, and seemingly have smark tendencies.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:31 PM   #139
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I agree the list is insane. By no standerd can I figure out how these guys made this list save trying to be counter culture. It's perposterious by all logic I can fathom. I watch all the guys, most religiously. And I still don't get it. How the the flying fuck are the coming up with this shit? I dunno. But my argument was Fabien was getting an ego trip because he likes wrestling a certian way and likewise he was doing the SAME THING Ultimo Tigger was.

Just trying to point out the hypocricy.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:33 PM   #140
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Same
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:34 PM   #141
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It's because he work's purely on the canvas and looks a bit like he is actually kicking the shit out of people.....

this is my side of this discussion... we know too much about the truth's of wrestling to agree that someone who works a match in the spirit of 30 years prior is modern-day world class.

Maybe it's over-exposure to the last 20 years of the American product. I don't know...
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:38 PM   #142
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Again, speak for yourself. Too much "we"
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:39 PM   #143
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not enough Wii
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:40 PM   #144
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just because i know how wrestling works doesn't mean that i can't continue to suspend my disbelief. i couldn't be a fan if i didn't. and you can work a match "in the spirit of 30 years prior" while still remaining relevant to today's mat game. look at bryan danielson. i don't mean to sound like a danielson nut hummer, but i guess i am. he does it right, in my opinion.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:42 PM   #145
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Different tastes and different environments too. What doesn't work in a WWE setting isn't neccesarilly bad. ROH is a different crowd, and a different environment. Therefore, it welcomes different things.
This may change if TV continues to grow there, but as of now its apples and oranges.

I think the live/indy wrestling world and the televised wrestling world (which you are talking about) are different things. I'm not saying either is better or worse.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:46 PM   #146
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I dunno Fabian. Just because I know it's a work doesn't mean I don't appreciate the sport side of it. That's like going to a movie not being able to appreciate the action because you know it's all stuntmen.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:46 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
Again, speak for yourself. Too much "we"
first time i said we. And I was referring to fans of predominantly modern US -style Pro Wrestling. I see little evidence on the 10 years of TPWW to suggest that I am as full of shit as I am being made out here.

I don't disagree with the points of you, Dest or Wex, but nobody here would make a similar list, while blindly ignoring even the other factors of in-ring performance that make a wrestler stand out.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:48 PM   #148
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I'd like to take this oppurtunity to boast that I'm going to ROH in May
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:50 PM   #149
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:50 PM   #150
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Supporting indy wrestling is the key to the buisness moving foward.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:51 PM   #151
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:03 PM   #152
ron the dial
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabien Barthez View Post
I don't disagree with the points of you, Dest or Wex, but nobody here would make a similar list, while blindly ignoring even the other factors of in-ring performance that make a wrestler stand out.
of course nobody here would make a similar list. that list sucks.

and fuck you jeritron. one of these days i'll get off my lazy ass and get back to an ROH show...
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:08 PM   #153
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I mean a list that has such a criteria for its entrant placement. See the lack of a full stop (period) after the word list?
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:11 PM   #154
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don't talk down to me you piece of shit. i know exactly what you meant. in fact, i was agreeing with you.
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:12 PM   #155
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YEA!
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:27 AM   #156
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This is from a thread at that board....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Cooke
Inspired from the Misterio thread about the 6/23/05 Rey/Eddy match possibly not being a MOTDC, I want to know what matches people believe at MOTDC's.

Matches that would comprise my top 20 (in chronological order):

04/09/00 - El Hijo del Santo vs. Blue Panther (Monterrey)

07/23/00 - Toshiaki Kawada/Genricho Tenyru vs. Stan Hansen/Kea (All Japan)

04/02/01 - Steve Austin vs. Rock (WWF - WrestleMania 17)

12/07/02 - Paul London vs. Bryan Danielson (ROH)

04/13/03 - Kenta Kobashi vs. Tamon Honda (NOAH)

02/22/04 - Shinya Hashimoto vs. Toshiaki Kawada (All Japan)

05/16/04 - Eddy Guerrero vs. John Bradshaw Layfield (WWE - Judgement Day)

08/13/04 - El Hijo del Santo vs. Perro Aguayo Jr. (CMLL)

08/18/04 - Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Hiroyuki Ito (U-Style)

04/24/05 - Yuki Ishikawa vs. Daisuke Ikeda (Futen)

06/11/05 - Samoa Joe vs. Necro Butcher (IWA-MS)

06/23/05 - Eddy Guerrero vs. Rey Misterio Jr. (WWE - Smackdown)

09/11/05 - Yuki Ishikawa vs. Alexander Otsuka (Big Mouth Loud)

10/01/05 - Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi (ROH)

07/16/06 - ROH vs. CZW Cage of Death (ROH)

01/28/07 - John Cena vs. Umaga (WWE - Royal Rumble)

10/14/07 - Solar/Super Astro vs. Negro Navarro/Mano Negra (Monterrey)

06/01/08 - Yuki Ishikawa vs. Carl Greco (BattlArts)

07/26/08 - Yuki Ishikawa/Alexander Otsuka/Munenori Sawa vs. Daisuke Ikeda/Katsumi Usuda/Super Tiger II (BattlArts)






Outside consideration:

03/18/01 - Rey Misterio Jr./Billy Kidman vs. Kid Romeo/Chavo Guerrero Jr. (WCW - Greed)

06/02/01 - Gedo/Masato Tanaka vs. Yuki Ishikawa/Mohammad Yone (BattlArts)

09/07/02 - Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (NOAH)

09/23/02 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (NOAH)

04/13/03 - Bryan Danielson vs. Paul London (ROH)

06/14/03 - Paul London vs. AJ Styles (ROH)

04/24/04 - Bryan Danielson vs. Homicide (ROH)

07/23/05 - Jimmy Rave vs. AJ Styles (ROH)

11/02/08 - Bryan Danielson vs. Chris Hero (PWG)

11/22/08 - Bryan Danielson vs. Nigel McGuiness (ROH)

12/09/08 - El Hijo del Santo/Cassandro/Magno vs. Silver King/Mistico de la Juarez/Rubi Gardenia (Todo X Todo)

12/18/08 - Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs. Super Tiger (Showa)

Don't want this to be listmania so I will add some thoughts in a little while.
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:51 AM   #157
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I'm still trying to wrap my head around how that Top 100 uber smark list was assembled and then Rey Rey ended up where he did. It must be awesome to live in 1995. Bring me back some Pogs.
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:55 AM   #158
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No deal. The pogs are mine.
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:59 AM   #159
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I called them.
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:03 AM   #160
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I'll take the Trolls then
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