NFL 2008-2009 Season Thread

[VonErichLives]

Archie Manning said that players ultimately are responsible for what goes into their bodies. NFL rules, he said, are clear on this. "I know my sons aren't into steroids because quarterbacks don't want bulk," Manning said. "But they like supplements; heck, I like supplements. My advice to them has been to never take anything - anything! - until they've had it fully checked against the banned substances list. "My own opinion is that if Deuce was taking anything it was to lose weight, because I know he's always had to fight that weight," Manning continued. "I just hate this for him. "I'll say this much: Deuce has represented his family, his hometown, the state of Mississippi, Ole Miss and the Saints as well as any player I've ever seen," Manning said. "I'd put him up against anybody in that regard. Deuce always takes care of his business." But I also know how badly Deuce wanted to come back, how badly he wanted to prove himself again before he retired. Everyone, Deuce McAllister included, is innocent until proved guilty. And where Deuce is concerned, I believe him.

seems pretty clear, he cheated and he got caught and according to league rules should be suspended.

now, it's not clear if he was simply trying to drop weight or trying to come back from injury (see: Rodney Harrison) either way it's a rules violation or "cheating" as RP would say.

I do like how Archie covered both sides "deuce is the son i never had" and "well, we all know he could have needed the faster healing"...

I have nothing against deuce, always been fond if him as a player, however if he was using it to lose weight it's still a rules violation because there is no way to prove if he (or anyone) was using it as a masking agent.

if the Saints said it was ok, then he should still be suspended by league rules and then if he wants sue the team to get the money lose for those weeks.

[Kris P Lettus]

If the drug, that he got cleared by team trainers, did not list the actual active ingredients, which it doesn't, the NFL is gonna be hard pressed to make this stick..

[VonErichLives]

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus If the drug, that he got cleared by team trainers, did not list the actual active ingredients, which it doesn't, the NFL is gonna be hard pressed to make this stick..

no there not.

"failed a drug test for banned substances"

if he failed a drug test it doesn't matter what he claims he took, how does someone know he isn't saying he took starcaps but took something else?

the reality is, if he failed a drug test he should be treated like anyone else who failed a drug test otherwise the nfl system is flawed and open to interpertation, which they can't have.

[Kris P Lettus]

I'm guessing you haven't been following this story too closely.. If it was a cut and dry as you say, they would have gotten suspended weeks ago, because the failed tests happened before the season even started.. The NFL decided to investigate well before the players started the appeals process.. On top of the questions about what the "banned substance" was, there's the question of why league sources outted only Saints players, when this covers several players from several teams, completely destroying their own confidentiality rule..

It's not near as cut and dry as you are making it..

[Kris P Lettus]

It has begun.. I bet y'all don't even realize that out offensive guard Jamar Nesbit, who just started playing again the past week, failed a drug test for the same thing.. He thought it was hopeless to fight it so he took the four game suspension.. Now he is suing the maker of the pills due to it not labeling a substance that cause him loss of wages and hurt his reputation..

METAIRIE, La. -- Saints offensive guard Jamar Nesbit filed suit Tuesday against the maker of a weight-loss supplement, alleging it was improperly spiked with a diuretic that is banned by the NFL. The lawsuit against the makers of StarCaps, an over-the-counter product, was filed in federal district court in New Jersey, said Nesbit's attorney Brian Molloy. Nesbit returned last week from a four-game suspension levied after he tested positive for Bumetanide, a substance that helps rid the body of excess water and salt. The NFL considers the substance a possible masking agent for steroids. It is the same substance for which several other players around the league have reportedly tested positive, including three other Saints: running back Deuce McAllister and defensive ends Will Smith and Charles Grant. McAllister, Smith and Grant remain on the Saints roster pending a consolidated appeal of their suspensions, said a person familiar with their case. The person spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because the appeals are ongoing. Nesbit never appealed his suspension because he did not expect to win, and instead chose get it over with as soon as possible while trying to recoup his $235,294 in lost salary from StarCaps, Molloy said. "Under NFL rules, you are strictly liable for what is in your body. They don't care how it got there, contaminated supplements or otherwise," said Molloy, who has represented other players in past appeals of NFL suspensions for banned substances. "So he did not appeal his suspension and focused his attention on going after the manufacturer of StarCaps." In addition to lost salary, the lawsuit seeks money for damage to Nesbit's reputation and for the alleged intentional, undisclosed spiking of the product with Bumetanide. Molloy said some of Nesbit's leftover pills were tested and found to be contaminated with Bumetanide, which is not listed as an ingredient. StarCaps did not immediately respond to an e-mail from The Associated Press seeking comment on the allegations. McAllister, who publicly acknowledged he was being investigated by the league after the Saints' 37-32 victory over San Diego on Sunday, has said his positive test for Bumetanide also resulted from his use of StarCaps. He said he has been using the product to help him control his weight for four years and had the pills lab-tested before he began taking them. Nesbit's lawsuit was filed the day after the Saints flew home from London, where they improved to 4-4 by beating the Chargers. The Saints and the NFL have declined to discuss the investigations of individual players' alleged use of banned substances, citing confidentiality rules. However, coach Sean Payton indicated he did not expect to learn of any new suspensions of Saints players before New Orleans' next game at Atlanta on Nov. 9. "I think we're beyond that right now," Payton said Tuesday at the team's suburban headquarters. "Without commenting on dates or specifics, I'm sure at some point there will be a hearing and there will be a decision made by the league and we'll go from there." The Saints have a bye this weekend. They are scheduled to practice on Wednesday and Thursday, but the team said players would not be made available to reporters this week. Payton said he doesn't want to get bogged down in long-term plans for the uncertain remainder of what has already been a topsy-turvy season. "The only thing I could control is our roster and our team right now," Payton said. "I don't view it as being in limbo. ... We look at our roster week by week and we say, 'Hey, here we go. And let's prepare to win a game with who's up and who's inactive.' "All the other things will take care of themselves," Payton continued. "We'll let the process take it's course and see where that goes." Still, Payton conceded it would be a challenge to cope with the losses of three top players at the same time. "Anytime you lose a guy that's been in your lineup on a regular basis, it's going to be a challenge," Payton said. "I don't want to speculate in that specific case with those three players, but obviously it becomes harder than if they were active. It's like having a rash of injuries all at the same time for four weeks." Copyright 2008 by The Associated Press

As I said, it's not near as cut and dry as you are making it out to be.. Sure, it is ultimatly the players responcibility to watch what they take and make sure none of it is on the banned substance list, but if they go into GNC and buy something that is labeled "all natural" and doesn't actually list the active ingridents, how does that responcibility still fall into their laps?? Deuce was even quoted saying he took it to the Saints NFL paid trainers, who based on the information that the company is legally obl;igated to print on the bottle, they cleared it.. I mean, are all pro athletes supposed to pay to send all vitimines and suppliments to a testing facilaty just in case the shit they are taking might have other chemicals in them that aren't labeled??

It's a weird case but I can kinda see your point.. I mean, Hollis Thomas got busted for an Asthma medicine that was prescribed to him for his entire NFL career by team doctors and he still got suspended.. If these suspensions do go through, that comapny will be paying every player involved's game checks plus damages, I am sure..

I look at this like, if you were on probation and bought an off brand over the counter pain killer, took it to your P.O. to check to make sure you could take it, he cleared it, then a week later you get popped for opiates with a piss test for that same P.O.. If they then test that over the counter pain killer and find that is where the opiates came from, then the responcibility should still fall on the guy who failed it??

[RP]

Kris Lettuce, these players know what goes in there bodies. If not, then its there own fault. Even there players rep has said as much. They got busted, deal with it. Maybe it was a mistake on there part, but thats not the NFL's fault. If they dont know what they're putting into there bodies then they're just plain dumb i guess.

[Kris P Lettus]

Alot of NFL players take supplements and whatnot.. I'm guessing the 95% of those players use the active ingredients list on the pills or powder or whatever to compare to the banned substance list..

The 1990 Organic Foods Production Act (OFPA) was passed primarily as a consumer labeling law, to provide a national uniform definition to the term "organic" in the marketplace. Unregulated use of the term "organic" was leading to at best confusion, and at worst, fraud. A uniform national standard will address these consumer problems, and also lead to industry growth, which would benefit the consumer and the environment. The January 1998 Consumer Reports endorsed creation of a national labeling standard in order to reduce confusion in the marketplace. http://www.consumersunion.org/pub/co...ty/002315.html

So, they are responsible for some company's fraud??

That is the point you guys seem to be missing..

[RP]

They knew what they were taking and they knew the risks. I dont buy any of that junk at all. Professional athletes know what they're putting in there body.

[Kris P Lettus]

Whatever dude..

There is a federal law stating companies must label all active ingredients on their products.. There is no way the players could have known what was in them due to this company breaking that federal law..

[RP]

So they took pills that didnt have the active ingredients on the label? Thats retarded.

[VonErichLives]

krispy, how do you prove this "mislabled" drug is all the took?

you can't.

simple, they failed the test they face the penalty.

end of story.

[RP]

Yah.. its so easy to be like " ok heres what i took and it doesnt have that ingredient on the label, so i must be innocent. ". Comon. I dont buy that junk at all. They got busted. Thats that.

[RP]

P.S. Its time for the league to make an example out of Vince Wilfork. He's become one of the dirtiest players in the league and all he gets is slaps on the wrists. Sit this guy down for 4 games please.

[VonErichLives]

see, I think he could be telling the truth... but there is no way to give him a pass w/o opening a can of worms.

[Kris P Lettus]

Originally Posted by VonErichLives krispy, how do you prove this "mislabled" drug is all the took?

By testing the Star Caps (which I'm sure is happening due to the pending law suits).. Using diuretics to cheat drug test is a crap shoot anyway..

Originally Posted by Rectal Pertruder So they took pills that didnt have the active ingredients on the label? Thats retarded.

Are you trying to play dumb here?? The pills in question were advertised as "ALL NATURAL" and "ORGANIC".. There is an active ingredients list but it said nothing about Bumetanide, which is the banned substance they failed the test for.. So, if the NFL gets an independent company to test samples of Star Caps and it comes up that they do contain this banned substance while not listing it on the label, I'm sure you will be like "Oh it's just a coincidence.. That doesn't prove that's what they took.."

I completely realize you guys are mostly hating, but you gotta agree there is ALOT of gray area in this case..

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Rectal Pertruder P.S. Its time for the league to make an example out of Vince Wilfork. He's become one of the dirtiest players in the league and all he gets is slaps on the wrists. Sit this guy down for 4 games please.

Yeah I remember when that fat piece of shit poked Brandon Jacobs in the eyes.

[#1-norm-fan]

Ex-Lions receiver Roy Williams made a triumphant return to Detroit Monday evening for a Halloween party. And his choice of costume was quite amusing - showing up as RB-turned-baggage thief Tatum Bell.



lol

[SammyG]

Steven Jackson unsure whether he will play, COME ON, Man up. Huge game.

[VonErichLives]

Originally Posted by VonErichLives krispy, how do you prove this "mislabled" drug is all the took?

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus By testing the Star Caps (which I'm sure is happening due to the pending law suits).. Using diuretics to cheat drug test is a crap shoot anyway..

ok, let's try this again.

Originally Posted by VonErichLives krispy, how do you prove this "mislabled" drug is all the took?

testing the star caps may prove the drug was in them, but doesn't prove that's all anyone took.

also, it being a "Crap shoot" to mask doesn't stop people from trying it.

and no, i'm not hating, but if you break a rule like that you should take the penalty.

[Kris P Lettus]

You are a f'n idiot..

Firstly, I'll ask you again, why would they take a banned substance to cover another banned substance?? If the "Star Caps" didn't contain the banned substance, it wouldn't have "masked" shit..

Secondly, are you really suggesting that Deuce is intent on covering up his used of banned substances, that he (and others) figured all this out about Star Caps to cover up their steroid use??

Again, I see what you are saying, but again, there is way too much gray area.. I mean, what are the coincidences that all this is falling in place just to cover up drug use.. I mean, what you are suggesting is that, not only were they knowingly taking the banned substance Bumetanide to cover up some form of other banned substance, but Deuce's CSI skills randomly lead him to an over the counter pill that contains Bumetanide yet is breaking FDA regulation by not properly lableing that it does indeed contain Bumetanide??

Is that what you are suggesting??

If "Star Caps" do indeed contain Bumetanide that prove that the company is wrong.. If "papaya and garlic" can mask the use of steroids, then they should be on the banned substance list.. You keep saying "how does that prove it was all he was taking", well if he was taking something else Deuce is a fucking genius for figuring out something that has falling through FDA regulation..

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus ...FDA regulation by not properly lableing that it does indeed contain Bumetanide??...

Fairly positive the FDA doesn't regulate drugs like these.

[Kris P Lettus]

Who would regulate it then??

[Kris P Lettus]

And yeah, it def is a FDA law, for the record..

1999 A final rule mandates that all over-the-counter drug labels must contain data in a standardized format. These drug facts are designed to provide the patient with easy-to-find information, analogous to the nutrition facts label for foods.

http://www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/miles.html

Look for yourself..

[Gonzo]

I was talking about steroids. My bad. I thought thats what you were talking about. I wasn't paying attention.

[Kris P Lettus]

They didn't get popped for steroids.. They got popped for Bumetanide, which is a chemical diuretic.. It is on the banned substance list due it it being able to "mask" the use of other drugs.. All four Saints have said the only supplement they were taking was "Star Caps" which was an over the counter weight loss drug that was advertised as being "ALL NATURAL" and "ORGANIC".. Now, it has come out that Star Caps did contain Bumetanide but it didn't list it on the active ingredience list.. VEL is trying to say that they were taking Star Caps to mask the use of other substances, which is ridiculous, cause if it was what it said it was, "papaya and garlic" and not "Bumetanide" it wouldn't have masked anything.. They would have had no way of knowing it had Bumetanide in it, until they failed a drug test for it.. I mean, what he is suggesting is a super intricate conspericy between the New Orleans Saints and the manufactuors of Star Caps, just so they could have an excuss as to why they failed a drug test for Bumetanide, when really they were taking steroids the whole time..

Or something..

Pretty ridiculous..

[Gonzo]

I have a hard time seeing how they will be able to excuse taking the diuretic even considering those circumstances.

[Kris P Lettus]

They didn't know it was a banned diuretic though.. Cranberry juice is a diuretic.. If they were drinking some store bought cranberry juice and it somehow had opiates in it, would they still be responsible?? The bottom line is, the company selling the pills mislabled them, which is against FDA regulations for this very reason.. Should they be punished, with their pay docked, and their reputations tarnished for some company being in the wrong??

[Kris P Lettus]

Regardless of if they get suspended or not, I'm sure that company will be sued due to their product causing problems with their careers and characters..

[VonErichLives]

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus They didn't know it was a banned diuretic though.. Cranberry juice is a diuretic.. If they were drinking some store bought cranberry juice and it somehow had opiates in it, would they still be responsible??

yes

and

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus Should they be punished, with their pay docked, and their reputations tarnished for some company being in the wrong??

yes.

we know it's a saint player and one you love, but shit happens.

[Kris P Lettus]

If you seriously believe that, then you have a skewed line of thinking..

They were taking what they thought was a legal, "all natural" weight loss pill and was compared the active ingredients to those on the banned substance lists.. As I said earlier, there are FEDERAL LAWS in place for things like this.. The company broke those FEDERAL LAWS causing players to violate regulations at their job..

I would feel the exact same way if it were Patriot players.. The same can not be said for you..

[DrA]

Hey, after a while maybe we can begin talking about one of the other 1,799 players in the league.

[Kris P Lettus]

Ok, you own (or owned) a restaurant.. If you sold a bottled beer and as you customer was drinking it a jagged piece of metal came out of said beer and slice up the customer's mouth and throat.. Would that be your fault as the owner, or the distributor/beer company's??

How were you to know there was something foreign in the beer??

[VonErichLives]

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus If you seriously believe that, then you have a skewed line of thinking.. They were taking what they thought was a legal, "all natural" weight loss pill and was compared the active ingredients to those on the banned substance lists.. As I said earlier, there are FEDERAL LAWS in place for things like this.. The company broke those FEDERAL LAWS causing players to violate regulations at their job.. I would feel the exact same way if it were Patriot players.. The same can not be said for you..

i'd feel the same if it was a patriot player.

the problem is you can't prove that was the only thing they took, that's what you can't seem to understand.

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus Ok, you own (or owned) a restaurant.. If you sold a bottled beer and as you customer was drinking it a jagged piece of metal came out of said beer and slice up the customer's mouth and throat.. Would that be your fault as the owner, or the distributor/beer company's?? How were you to know there was something foreign in the beer??

first, that's not even close to the same situation, you're arguing something different then we are. The issue is you can't prove that was all they took and that's where the false test came from.

but with your example.

hence why I carried a 4million dollar liability policy.

The customer if they sued would sue my restaurant, the make of the beer and probably even the server.

you forget we live in a fucked up sue happy country.

[VonErichLives]

Originally Posted by DrA Hey, after a while maybe we can begin talking about one of the other 1,799 players in the league.

how's romo's pinky?

[Kris P Lettus]

Originally Posted by VonErichLives i'd feel the same if it was a patriot player. the problem is you can't prove that was the only thing they took, that's what you can't seem to understand. first, that's not even close to the same situation, you're arguing something different then we are. The issue is you can't prove that was all they took and that's where the false test came from. but with your example. hence why I carried a 4million dollar liability policy. The customer if they sued would sue my restaurant, the make of the beer and probably even the server. you forget we live in a fucked up sue happy country.

As I've asked you like 30 times,

-why would they take a banned substance to cover another banned substance??

Why does anyone have to prove that's all they took?? I mean, if the drug was what it advertised itself to be, it wouldn't have covered up any other drugs in their systems.. You are suggesting that they either A) took a drug on the banned substance list to cover up taking another drug on the banned substance list or B) were taking steroids (or something other than a diurectic, and then once getting popped, figured out that this other totally random drug had the banned substance yet didn't list it, which I really don't think they, as football players, had the mean to get that kind of information..

Bottom line is, if Star Caps hadn';t had the banned substance, then it wouldn't have masked the use of other banned substances any more than eating straight garlic and papaya.. You are saying they had prior knowledge that Star Caps had the banned substance which brings up the first question I asked..

Why would they knowingly take a banned substance to cover the use of another banned substance??

Also, how would they have inside information about this product?? It's not like they are chemists..

[Kris P Lettus]

Originally Posted by DrA Hey, after a while maybe we can begin talking about one of the other 1,799 players in the league.

I really don't see why some of you bitch so f'n much in this thread.. We are having a conversation that pertains to the NFL season, which is what this thread is for.. If you want to discuss something else, fine.. It'd sure be better than bitching and whining about what we are talking about..

Maybe you and SammyG should get together and have a good cry about it..

[SammyG]

....

[Kris P Lettus]

You were bitching about the exact same shit like a week ago..

As far as the NFL is concerned, I follow the New Orleans Saints, which is what I'm going to post about.. Why not post about your team??

Not that hard..

[RP]

Saints R Cheaters

[SammyG]

RP, Should I start Dallas Clark against NE, or Olsen against the Lions. I REALLY LOVE Clark. can you guarentee me Manning gets him the ball.