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Old 11-27-2016, 06:22 AM   #1
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This is what I see when I see Owens. Tank was my favourite UFC fighter growing up.
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Old 11-27-2016, 11:29 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Bad News Gertner View Post


This is what I see when I see Owens. Tank was my favourite UFC fighter growing up.
Exactly. If you book him like a badass, it would not be at all unrealistic just because he's a fatty. It's not that he looks intimidating per se. It's that he looks like he COULD be intimidating. Book him as such and it would work. If Tank Abbott was a big fat jobber, you'd say "lol Look at this fat fuck." But since he was actually a badass, his look warrants a different reaction. Owens has everything it takes to pull off the same thing if booked right.
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Old 11-27-2016, 05:44 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Exactly. If you book him like a badass, it would not be at all unrealistic just because he's a fatty. It's not that he looks intimidating per se. It's that he looks like he COULD be intimidating. Book him as such and it would work. If Tank Abbott was a big fat jobber, you'd say "lol Look at this fat fuck." But since he was actually a badass, his look warrants a different reaction. Owens has everything it takes to pull off the same thing if booked right.
Probably also helped in Abbott's case he was a little legit crazy while in WCW to the point he actually threatened to kill and beat up people there. Even him pulling a knife on Goldberg wasn't supposed to be done the way it was on tv I think.
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:02 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Exactly. If you book him like a badass, it would not be at all unrealistic just because he's a fatty. It's not that he looks intimidating per se. It's that he looks like he COULD be intimidating. Book him as such and it would work. If Tank Abbott was a big fat jobber, you'd say "lol Look at this fat fuck." But since he was actually a badass, his look warrants a different reaction. Owens has everything it takes to pull off the same thing if booked right.
Thank you. Owens doesn't remind me of Tank Abbott. Owens reminds me of a fat fuck playing pro-wrestler.
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Old 11-28-2016, 03:54 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Thank you. Owens doesn't remind me of Tank Abbott. Owens reminds me of a fat fuck playing pro-wrestler.
He's fit so he's not a fat fuck. He could probably beat you in a mile race.
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Old 11-28-2016, 07:55 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
He's fit so he's not a fat fuck. He could probably beat you in a mile race.
Holy fuck, you people really don't get it, do you? There's a difference between perception and reality. I don't give a fuck if Kevin Owens can climb mountains like Brian Blessed -- it's what people think. What does your average person think when they look at Kevin Owens?

Didn't they do some sort of testing group a year or so back and Owens tested "surprisingly low?" I wouldn't hold onto that one instance forever, but for fuck's sake some people have their head up in the clouds.
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Old 11-27-2016, 10:45 AM   #7
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That's pretty much what I see too. Having a gut doesn't proclude him from kicking ass.
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:09 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by #BrotherVito DELETED View Post
That's pretty much what I see too. Having a gut doesn't proclude him from kicking ass.
Why can't people grasp the actual points being made? Being fat =/= looking like a mark. Being a bad-ass =/= being presented as a bad-ass. Having a good look =/= being chiseled.
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Old 11-27-2016, 09:53 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Why can't people grasp the actual points being made? Being fat =/= looking like a mark. Being a bad-ass =/= being presented as a bad-ass. Having a good look =/= being chiseled.
I think you might be looking at this too subjectively, Noid. You're probably my favorite person on this forum, but your insistence that Owens doesn't have a good look when many in this thread think he does makes it seem like you're saying your opinion is more valid than theirs are.

Oh, and just an FYI I'm not really invested in it one way or the other. I mean I think Owens looks fine where he is, but honestly at this point I'd buy into anyone being a champ if they were pushed correctly. I just don't care about that sort of stuff so whether or not Owens is intimidating or whatever is moot in my opinion.
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Old 11-27-2016, 10:49 AM   #10
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Feel like people obsessed with a wrestlers' physique should probably just stop watching. The business has changed. Guys aren't roided as fuck anymore because the Wellness Policy exists. The Wellness Policy exists because more than enough research has been done to show how damaging that shit actually is to your health, as evidenced by the laundry list of guys who have died of heart problems before they even become middle aged.

Triple H might be allowed to skirt the rules and roid up, but most guys aren't nowadays. What you see is what you get. If you want everybody to be big the business isn't for you anymore.
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Old 11-27-2016, 11:02 AM   #11
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Welsh international prop Adam Jones.
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Old 11-27-2016, 11:08 AM   #12
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Remember Noid, I said PROPS I used to play rugby with. You showed a shirtless picture of a back, you dink lol

Ruien you have shown me several times that you yourself can be kind of obsessed with appearance.

Look, if they let the boys do steroids and monitor it correctly and make sure they're all safe, I'm down, but they can't so what do you expect? You need steroids to have some of the old physiques.

But remember, Harley Race is an all time great and he didn't exactly look like a chiseled Adonis. Same for many. Owens looks mean, he is just fat. And it helps him.
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Old 11-27-2016, 01:26 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
Remember Noid, I said PROPS I used to play rugby with. You showed a shirtless picture of a back, you dink lol

Ruien you have shown me several times that you yourself can be kind of obsessed with appearance.

Look, if they let the boys do steroids and monitor it correctly and make sure they're all safe, I'm down, but they can't so what do you expect? You need steroids to have some of the old physiques.

But remember, Harley Race is an all time great and he didn't exactly look like a chiseled Adonis. Same for many. Owens looks mean, he is just fat. And it helps him.
Why? Because I want different size wrestlers? As I said in 1 or 2 post back, Braun has the ability to become the next Big Show/Kane type of wrestler that has been lacking. WWE will probably put Reigns over him, then Rollins, and then have him start dancing soon enough but he has the ability. AJ is fine because you need your Y2J/Shawn type of wrestlers. The problem is, every wrestler looks like a Y2J/Shawn type of wrestler basically now.

I am focusing on the bigger wrestlers because there are none. If every main event wrestler looked like Goldberg then it would get old fast too. But when you have every wrestler built the same way and wrestling the same way then what is the difference from the mid card to the upper card? Jack shit. 50/50 booking also does not help.
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Old 11-27-2016, 11:51 AM   #14
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Wasn't Tank booked to dance around with 3-Count?
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Old 11-27-2016, 05:53 PM   #15
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Wasn't Tank booked to dance around with 3-Count?
Something wrong with that punk? Tell it to Tank's face man!!

Dance along with three count! Make it last forever!
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Old 11-27-2016, 02:06 PM   #16
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Isn't that what's good about Owens though, that he's not built like HBK/Chris Jericho? I do agree it is boring to have everyone as 6'2" 215-220, but Owens breaks that mould.

I like the idea of big jacked up beasts being in there as well because it does add to the mystique of the business but those guys have to a) be able to work a bit and b) be available.
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Old 11-27-2016, 02:17 PM   #17
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I think the issue here is the idea that wrestling can be as big as it used to be, and that there are a number of reasons why it's not, and different people are pointing at different things to explain why it's not, or how it could get back to those heights.

We have Noid (I love you, man) who for years proposed the likes of Val Venis, Paul London, and Doug Basham as talents that WWE should push right to the top, now pushing for WWE to revert back to body guys, or that they need a Rock/Austin/Hogan type to drag them back into prominence because that's what worked when wrestling had mass appeal, and I don't buy it.

WWE had its heyday.

It's the same as a show like The X Files. At the height of its popularity it was a cultural phenomenon that premiered Season 5 at over 27.3m viewers. On its return to screens this year it garnered nearly 16.2m. Sure the TV environment has changed in the last 20 years, no doubt fewer people watch first-run TV than they used to (for example, this years biggest TV show and current cultural phenomenon The Walking Dead, premiered at 17.03m viewers - 10m fewer than X Files S5) and peoples' interests are dessiminated across other platforms, but simply X Files is not as "in" in 2016 as it was in 1996.

Same can be said for wrestling.

It's a niche product. It's always been a niche product, it just captured something in the mid/late 90s that garnered more public interest.

I don't think the lack of a body builder on top, or landing lucky on a guy like The Rock will propel them back to the pinacle of pop culture.

I don't think better writing will do this either, but it will increase my personal enjoyment of the product.

But beyond those issues, the single biggest issue is the volume of product.

I'm the type of person that "goes deep" with the TV I enjoy; ahead of the X Files mini series this year I watched the entire 9 seasons again, and read endlessly on the X files wiki site, I was the same with Lost, spending hours talking about theories on line. Current one is Westworld. But the minimum I am required to do is watch a 1 hour show once a week for maybe 24 weeks of the year.

Then there's wrestling. This is one of maybe 3 websites I go to daily, I watch Raw, SmackDown, NXT, PPVs, I watched the CWC, I watch the exclusive network stuff, I even still watch TNA, and Lucha Underground. I listen to the SCG podcast, and more often than not Jericho's show, Austin's, JR's, and Colt's. A lot of this is through force of habit (and clearly I live a very boring life) but the minimum I am required to do is watch 3 or 5 hours a week, 52 weeks a year. That's a lot. It's a hurdle the Attitude Era didn't have (they gave us 2 extra hours when they already had the audience).

Sure there will fans turned away by Balor/Owens being on top, and there will be a portion you can bring back with returns like Goldberg's, and WrestleMania will still get that casual bump, but otherwise wrestling's upper limit isn't as high as it was in 1999.
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Old 11-27-2016, 02:25 PM   #18
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I think if something is well written and produces something which resonates it would garner at least some kind of main stream attention, not that it really matters.
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Old 11-27-2016, 02:51 PM   #19
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Well of course people will always have different opinions on who should be pushed. Because, you know, we are all different and have different taste. I don't think you can find one person on these forums that would take everyone you listed (Cena, Reigns, Styles, Lesnar, Zayn, Balor, and Ambrose) that dislikes everyone of the individuals in the main event.
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Old 11-27-2016, 04:31 PM   #20
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Also Ruien, Kevin Owens would beat the fuck out of you.
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Old 11-27-2016, 04:42 PM   #21
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We are really going to go back to the whole internet tough debate? It was shitty 1 or 2 pages back and it will be shitty now.

Really? Since you want to back into this debate. Owens has 2, maybe 3, inches on me. Is in no where near the shape I am in. Has he ever trained to actually defend/hurt/detain anyone? I have no idea if he has because I don't give two shits what happens outside of the WWE ring but I have years of karate/military/police training.

Do we need to keep playing the who is tougher than who shit though? It stupid as I said it was before.
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Old 11-27-2016, 04:44 PM   #22
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I'm not saying anything about internet tough, I think Kevin Owens would beat the fuck out of me too and I'm a pretty tough guy myself, not even saying you aren't tough.

If you have all that training and are a badass you could probably beat up 250 pound body builders as well. So your point is still moot.
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:28 PM   #23
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I find it funny how I brought up the look issue in this thread but I also buy KO as champ which so many of you seem to not. Keep him as the obnoxious bully type character and he is golden as champ. He legit looks and acts like a highschool bully, if they play that up by shit talking everyone yet still getting clean wins him being champ is great. Once they turn him face all his appeal will be gone because then he will just look like another indy guy,
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Old 11-27-2016, 09:44 PM   #24
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Ruien knows martial arts he could totally kick Kevin Owens' ass
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Old 11-27-2016, 10:06 PM   #25
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Ruien knows martial arts he could totally kick Kevin Owens' ass
Damn right.
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Old 11-27-2016, 10:44 PM   #26
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this thread reminds me of Jim Cornette saying "Shawn Michaels couldn't whip cream with an out board motor" in a real fight
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Old 11-27-2016, 10:51 PM   #27
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Wish this thread would die so I may post me new thread.
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Old 11-27-2016, 11:53 PM   #28
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Post your new thread anyway, Ruien.

By the way, Wishbone, I do completely agree with you -- it is subjective -- I see something credible in AJ Styles, for example. But lately I've been trying to get into the psyche of the average person -- that elusive "casual fan." I think it's pretty nerdy to pretend Kevin Owens is legit. If you buy it, that's wonderful, but I think it's a lot of work to expect a person who doesn't surround themselves in folklore about how good Owens is in the ring to do.
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Old 11-28-2016, 12:46 AM   #29
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Wish this thread would die so I may post me new thread.
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Post your new thread anyway, Ruien.

By the way, Wishbone, I do completely agree with you -- it is subjective -- I see something credible in AJ Styles, for example. But lately I've been trying to get into the psyche of the average person -- that elusive "casual fan." I think it's pretty nerdy to pretend Kevin Owens is legit. If you buy it, that's wonderful, but I think it's a lot of work to expect a person who doesn't surround themselves in folklore about how good Owens is in the ring to do.
I'm with Noid. What's stopping you, Ruien (other than yourself)?
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Old 11-28-2016, 12:21 AM   #30
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Fair points, but I don't think it's as big of a stretch as you're making it out to be. I could be wrong, but based on personal experience with people I know who don't watch on a regular basis I've seen them have just about the same reaction to Owens as they do to any other pro-wrestler.

My biggest issue is that I just don't think that trying to bring in so-called "casuals" is even viable at this point. Personally I think wrestling is just too far gone to ever appeal to them again. My opinion is that WWE should focus on keeping their current audience and bringing back old wrestling fans who stopped watching due to the stale state of the product, but trying to get totally new fans is in my opinion a waste of time. I could be wrong since I'm basing a lot of that on anecdotal evidence from my own life, but that's my point of view anyway.
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Old 11-28-2016, 05:19 AM   #31
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Quote:
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Fair points, but I don't think it's as big of a stretch as you're making it out to be. I could be wrong, but based on personal experience with people I know who don't watch on a regular basis I've seen them have just about the same reaction to Owens as they do to any other pro-wrestler.

My biggest issue is that I just don't think that trying to bring in so-called "casuals" is even viable at this point. Personally I think wrestling is just too far gone to ever appeal to them again. My opinion is that WWE should focus on keeping their current audience and bringing back old wrestling fans who stopped watching due to the stale state of the product, but trying to get totally new fans is in my opinion a waste of time. I could be wrong since I'm basing a lot of that on anecdotal evidence from my own life, but that's my point of view anyway.
I think we're discussing semantics here, because I'm pretty much on the same page, but when I say "casuals" I am talking about that lapsed fan. The sort that Goldberg could have brought in if the rest of Survivor Series was as exciting as his return.
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Old 11-28-2016, 08:52 AM   #32
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Kevin Owens needs to be chiseled to bring in fans that don't exist.
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Old 11-28-2016, 10:06 AM   #33
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Owens sheds weight and ends up absurdly ripped.

"Owens doesn't look unique anymore, now he looks like just another cookie cutter bodybuilder."
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Old 11-28-2016, 10:13 AM   #34
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But, yeah, some of the shit the audience does is truly awful. The "You still got it" chant for Taker recently was plain stupid, the "this is awesome" before Dillinger/Roode even touch was silly (although with context is more understandle).

Went to a house show in England last year, there were some douchbag "fans" trying to start a "Super Dragon" chant for the whole show. Don't need that type of asshole, thanks.
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Old 11-28-2016, 03:47 PM   #35
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It's good to see Noid coming around on the mindset of WWE booking, which is to focus on larger than life characters.

The difference now is The Network. In years passed when business declined, the WWE would try to appeal to its base and push guys with strong workrate. With the idea being to keep things afloat until the next big mega star comes along. That was in an era where there was an arms race for TV ratings. It's a different environment today. The TV ratings have declined (largely in line with other shows on cable), but revenues have never been higher. Part of that is The Network, but it's also that there is more money on the table with TV in large part due to the successful move to PG programming.

At the same time house show attendance is essentially flat and merch is still selling (not at the rates of the peak, but selling nonetheless). What it shows is that WWE is less focused on the elusive "casual" audience and instead focused on being smarter at generating revenue from the hardcore fan.

It's left WWE trying to serve two masters. On the one hand, they still want to find that traditional New York territory babyface - Hogan, Rock, Austin, Cena type (hence the Reigns project, guys like Stroman, Corbin, etc) but they want to ensure the hardcore fans are looked after - (hence NXT on the weekend of big 4 PPVs, specials like the 205 deal, and pushing Internet darlings like Balor, Owens, Styles, etc.).

I have heard from too many friends who have a very passing interest in sports entertainment that they could never take a guy like Rey Mysterio seriously in a match against a guy like Big Show or Kane. I tend to agree with that line of thinking. I think for a guy to come off larger than life, he needs to have the size or the believeability in his work. For example, Kurt Angle is not massive, but if you know his background and watch him work, you have no trouble believing he could beat up anyone. I don't think guys like Styles (who I think is phenominal), Balor, or even Rollins to a degree give off a tough guy vibe. Not to say they can't be effective heels, or mid card babys, but as top dogs, I don't see it.

But that's where The Network comes in. As WWE is able to further monetize their Network subscriber base, there could be even more movement to appealing to the smarks, and less concern about that mega star that can be a crossover star.
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Old 11-28-2016, 07:04 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
It's good to see Noid coming around on the mindset of WWE booking, which is to focus on larger than life characters.

The difference now is The Network. In years passed when business declined, the WWE would try to appeal to its base and push guys with strong workrate. With the idea being to keep things afloat until the next big mega star comes along. That was in an era where there was an arms race for TV ratings. It's a different environment today. The TV ratings have declined (largely in line with other shows on cable), but revenues have never been higher. Part of that is The Network, but it's also that there is more money on the table with TV in large part due to the successful move to PG programming.

At the same time house show attendance is essentially flat and merch is still selling (not at the rates of the peak, but selling nonetheless). What it shows is that WWE is less focused on the elusive "casual" audience and instead focused on being smarter at generating revenue from the hardcore fan.

It's left WWE trying to serve two masters. On the one hand, they still want to find that traditional New York territory babyface - Hogan, Rock, Austin, Cena type (hence the Reigns project, guys like Stroman, Corbin, etc) but they want to ensure the hardcore fans are looked after - (hence NXT on the weekend of big 4 PPVs, specials like the 205 deal, and pushing Internet darlings like Balor, Owens, Styles, etc.).

I have heard from too many friends who have a very passing interest in sports entertainment that they could never take a guy like Rey Mysterio seriously in a match against a guy like Big Show or Kane. I tend to agree with that line of thinking. I think for a guy to come off larger than life, he needs to have the size or the believeability in his work. For example, Kurt Angle is not massive, but if you know his background and watch him work, you have no trouble believing he could beat up anyone. I don't think guys like Styles (who I think is phenominal), Balor, or even Rollins to a degree give off a tough guy vibe. Not to say they can't be effective heels, or mid card babys, but as top dogs, I don't see it.

But that's where The Network comes in. As WWE is able to further monetize their Network subscriber base, there could be even more movement to appealing to the smarks, and less concern about that mega star that can be a crossover star.
Not once did I find Rey a credible champ. He had a match with HBGOATK and it even fell flat because of the size difference. Hbk makes everything look legit but fighting a midget didn't work for me.
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Old 11-28-2016, 08:46 PM   #37
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I would like to point out that since his first night when he beat Cena, Owens has always gotten a reaction from the crowd. That can't be said for many of the guys that the IWC loves.
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Old 11-28-2016, 08:50 PM   #38
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Dean Ambrose was always getting good reactions for a while. Well, until they killed him. Owens' time will come.
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Old 11-29-2016, 05:41 AM   #39
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Dean Ambrose was always getting good reactions for a while. Well, until they killed him. Owens' time will come.
Lol I've always loved your sunny optimism
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Old 11-28-2016, 10:01 PM   #40
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Dean Amrose looks less threatening than Owens, but it's ok because he is so crazy he is a lunatic apparently.
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