Official Bound For Glory thread--10/23/05

[PureHatred]

Originally Posted by loopydate LC, you keep forgetting that the alternative is Jeff Jarrett, who was last seen by most fans as: In WWE - Losing to Chyna In WCW - Holding the title in the last throes of a dying promotion.

Rhino

In WWE - Losing his job to a potted plant
In ECW - Holding the title in the last throes of a dying promotion

[Fox]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon Yes, but we don't know for sure whether Nash was suppossed to win. Meltzer or somebody will know soon though. But look: Nash is a guy that most casual fans love. They loved him in WCW and he has held WCW and a WWF World Title before. He's an alright champ to have. I still think he was going to lose, but to give it to Rhino? Seriously guys, RHINO? Does this guy scream "Big Player" to the wrestling world? He's a lifetime mid-carder is most people's eyes and I can just see people laughing at home at the thought of him carrying the NWA World Title. He's never been proven and to hold a Title like that is a big wtf?

Kevin Nash? Loved? Maybe you don't remember the last time he was on TV; a certain little feud with a man named Triple H that did absolutely nothing for either of them, any fan anywhere, or the ratings? Ring a bell?


Once again, I do not think you are fully grasping the situation of what happened tonight. We may never know for sure what the original plan for the main event was (no matter what Dave fucking Meltzer has to say about it). They NEEDED someone for Jarrett to wrestle, and at this point in time, you STILL have yet to name another person who would have done a better job tonight than Rhino did.

Monty Brown? What a fucking joke.

[Loose Cannon]

Originally Posted by loopydate I'm seriously not trying to be contrary here, but... In 1999, still in the middle of the perfect nothing-was-wrong-with-it-and-we-should-all-go-back-to-it (not a dig at LC, just at a lot of people on this board) Attitude Era, there were eleven WWF Title changes (Mankind lost to Rock who lost to Mankind, then Rock, Austin, UT, Austin, Mankind, HHH, Vince, HHH, and Big Show). Frequent title changes aren't necessarily a bad thing. Yes, they usually are, but there are always exceptions to every rule. Odds are, TNA will fuck this up, because they usually do. But just because they're hotshotting the title doesn't mean that the title has zero credibility. It doesn't have any to the casual fan anyway, so what's the harm in seeing what sticks in its "mainstream" infancy?

Like I said, WCW was doing the same thing. You want to know why it worked for the WWE? Because it had Interesting Storylines and Credible Wrestlers who were actually drawing loads of money. But what did that do long-term to that Title. It really fucked up the credibility, didn't it? Before long, that Title just became a prop and it's just now started to gain some of that credibility again.

With WCW, they were booking moronic storylines, doing changes at the worst of times and doing them when they meant nothing. Even a match like Halftime Heat meant something to a lot of people. WCW was just moronic most of the time.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by PureHatred Rhino In WWE - Losing his job to a potted plant In ECW - Holding the title in the last throes of a dying promotion

A potted plant? really?

[McLegend]

Originally Posted by Fox Kevin Nash? Loved? Maybe you don't remember the last time he was on TV; a certain little feud with a man named Triple H that did absolutely nothing for either of them, any fan anywhere, or the ratings? Ring a bell? Once again, I do not think you are fully grasping the situation of what happened tonight. We may never know for sure what the original plan for the main event was (no matter what Dave fucking Meltzer has to say about it). They NEEDED someone for Jarrett to wrestle, and at this point in time, you STILL have yet to name another person who would have done a better job tonight than Rhino did. Monty Brown? What a fucking joke.

Actually the last time Nash was on TV was against Jarret in TNA earlier this year.

Also Monty Brown is great

sorry to nitpick

[Destor]

Originally Posted by PureHatred I'm going to be honest. I hated everything I've read about Memphis wrestling that didn't involve either the Midnight Express or the Rock n Roll Express, and from the matches I've seen from his prime, Jerry lawler is one of the single most overrated performers ever. Continue the TNA debate. I'm hoping for another reasonable, optimistic comment by loopy, followed by scads of unabated smarkish negativity from everyone else. .

Milk dud for an avy? Dick.

[Loose Cannon]

Originally Posted by loopydate LC, you keep forgetting that the alternative is Jeff Jarrett, who was last seen by most fans as: In WWE - Losing to Chyna In WCW - Holding the title in the last throes of a dying promotion.

JJ has been built like a god in TNA. TNA talks about him like he's a god. It's all about perception in the moment. And with Jarret, he gets talked about so much and is used in so many segments, that it gives him a shit load of credibility.

Rhino DOES NOT gets the spotlight that Jarret gets. He's just some ordinary guy in TNA. And he comes out of nowhere and just wins thier World Title. Don't get that.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by legend Damnit Somebody talk about the 30 min Ironman match. Was it better then the first?

It's hard to say which was better, as both of them were brilliant.

AJ Styles took some serious bumps tonight, and his left leg had a massive welt on it from this harsh fall onto the ring steps. He also took a back suplex from the apron to the concrete, which left him clutching his purpled back for the rest of the match.

Daniels and Styles were both incredibly on tonight, putting forth a great contest with lots of intensity and action. The ending could have been done better, but AJ was noticably hurt, and the last second Styles Clash was cool anyways. A great match; I'd give it 8.5/10.

[loopydate]

Forgot to comment on this earlier:

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon Rhino was jobbing on low profile matches to guys like Bradshaw. He doesn't have promo skills, he lacks charisma, and really sin't anything special. He was never a big deal at all in WWE, the place where it usually matters. Yea, guys like Jericho jobbed, but Jericho actually DREW money, was a HUGE deal, is high profile, can cut a great promo, has charisma, is known outside wrestling and has won a shit load of Titles for WWE and WCW. Theres' the Difference

Here's the difference as I see it.

Yes, Rhyno lost to lowcarders his entire career, but how many casual fans pay attention to those matches in the first place? The lowcard matches, unless they're involving divas or...divas, usually are met with apathy from the crowd, and they don't really pay any attention to who was in them. (See: Bradshaw turning from beer-drinking poker-playing protection-runner to city-slicker limo-riding millionaire overnight and nobody but us even noticing)

Fans watch the main events. They pay attention to the main events. When they watched WCW, they saw Jeff Jarrett in the main event and they saw the promotion die. They saw him win the title from David Arquette in one match and with help from two crooked guest officials in a second.

Neither of these guys makes for a credible main-eventer in the eyes of a casual fan, but most casual fans will have forgotten that Rhino used to wrestle on Heat. They won't have forgotten that Jarrett carried on a top-tier feud with...Master P. They won't have forgotten that Jarrett couldn't win the belt on his own (and still can't) OR pin a woman.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by legend Actually the last time Nash was on TV was against Jarret in TNA earlier this year. Also Monty Brown is great sorry to nitpick

I meant TV that people were watching.

[PureHatred]

Originally Posted by Fox A potted plant? really?

Spazzed out at a hotel. Destroyed a fancy potted plant in the lobby . Fired days later.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon Rhino was jobbing on low profile matches to guys like Bradshaw. He doesn't have promo skills, he lacks charisma, and really sin't anything special. He was never a big deal at all in WWE, the place where it usually matters. Yea, guys like Jericho jobbed, but Jericho actually DREW money, was a HUGE deal, is high profile, can cut a great promo, has charisma, is known outside wrestling and has won a shit load of Titles for WWE and WCW. Theres' the Difference

Personally, I put no stock in what WWE does with any given wrestler. Look at all the talent they've wasted over the years. They don't know shit.

[PureHatred]

Originally Posted by Destor Milk dud for an avy? Dick.

I know its Lashley. But seriously, it looks like a Milk Dud with a set of those Mr Potato head features.

[Loose Cannon]

Originally Posted by Fox And I repeat: I have found, in my experience, that fans who only watch WWE and have never seen ECW (or TNA, I guess; it's relatively new) are idiot marks. Besides, what you just said is completely illogical. If someone has never seen TNA, then why do they care if Rhino is the champion in the first place?

My fucking god. Just for curiosity, how do you feel about John Cena?

The idiot marks seem to love him right? The idiot marks are the ones shelling out the $$ to buy tickets to see him and buy his merchendise, right? Seems like the idiot marks are the same people who make stars out of people.

Your second comment: EXACTLY. You just hit it on the head. Why would they care about Rhino being champion. Who is Rhino? Why should I care about him? He's never done anything to merrit a World Title. Unless you don't want those idiot marks caring, right?

[loopydate]

Originally Posted by PureHatred Rhino In WWE - Losing his job to a potted plant

Yeah, but I defy you to find me a casual fan that knows about that.

Originally Posted by PureHatred In ECW - Holding the title in the last throes of a dying promotion

There's a difference between being the last ECW Champion in a promotion that less than 10% of the wrestling audience was watching to begin with and being one of the last WCW Champions which was, just two years earlier, the biggest wrestling promotion in the world.

[Fox]

No, my point was, if they don't watch TNA, they don't know he's champion, therefore, it makes no difference.

[Loose Cannon]

Originally Posted by Fox Personally, I put no stock in what WWE does with any given wrestler. Look at all the talent they've wasted over the years. They don't know shit.

ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Yea, you just lost ALL credibility you had left here. They don't know shit, yet they are like what....a Billion Dollar company or something like that. But they don't know shit.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by Fox Besides, what you just said is completely illogical.

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon Your second comment: EXACTLY. You just hit it on the head.

[Loose Cannon]

Originally Posted by Fox No, my point was, if they don't watch TNA, they don't know he's champion, therefore, it makes no difference.

So you don't even want them watching TNA? OK

[PureHatred]

LC and Fox are looking at this from two totally different viewpoints; one as a hardcore wrestling fan, and one as a booker and how they should/wqould be trying to make money.

Rhino seriously has not been treated as a main eventer on TNA. I know that part of it is that they were building up JJ/Nash, so there was no reason to build Rhino up for a title shot; this was just a last second decisison. But still...

So basically the question became whether it made more sense to put the belt on a guy who has only been on TV in a passing manner in the last month, who had almost zero heat headed into the PPv or to keep the belt on JJ, TNA's most established commodity.

I would've let JJ retain.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Yea, you just lost ALL credibility you had left here. They don't know shit, yet they are like what....a Billion Dollar company or something like that. But they don't know shit.

Oh no. I'd better go drink all the shit under the sink - Loose Cannon says I lost all credibility on TPWW.net - my life is over.

Please, don't be so condescending. It just makes you look ridiculous.


Vince McMahon knows how to market wrestling to the people who watch it. His father did it, he learned the trade, and now he's doing it. He's a promoter just like any other. But he doesn't know SHIT when it comes to talent.

Let's look at the list of guys he's wasted over the years:

-Rob Van Dam
-Rhino
-Spanky
-Frankie Kazarian
-Paul London
-Dean Malenko
-Akio
-Charlie Haas
-Ultimo Dragon

The list goes on and on, but I don't wish to continue. Vince can promote, but he wouldn't recognize talent if it shit in his soup.

[Loose Cannon]

Originally Posted by PureHatred So basically the question became whether it made more sense to put the belt on a guy who has only been on TV in a passing manner in the last month, who had almost zero heat headed into the PPv or to keep the belt on JJ, TNA's most established commodity.

Thank You. This is basically my entire argument summed up nicely here.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by PureHatred LC and Fox are looking at this from two totally different viewpoints; one as a hardcore wrestling fan, and one as a booker and how they should/wqould be trying to make money. Rhino seriously has not been treated as a main eventer on TNA. I know that part of it is that they were building up JJ/Nash, so there was no reason to build Rhino up for a title shot; this was just a last second decisison. But still... So basically the question became whether it made more sense to put the belt on a guy who has only been on TV in a passing manner in the last month, who had almost zero heat headed into the PPv or to keep the belt on JJ, TNA's most established commodity. I would've let JJ retain.

That does about sum it up, and I disagree - Rhino should have, and did, win. Differences of opinion are what make life interesting.

Thanks for the debate LC. Later.

[loopydate]

Originally Posted by PureHatred I would've let JJ retain.

And, despite what I've said throughout this thread, I would have as well. All I've been trying to offer, and I think PH and a couple others have picked up on this, is that this is not necessarily the stupidest booking decision in the history of stupid booking and that we should perhaps see where TNA is going with this before saying that it is.

[McLegend]

Originally Posted by Fox Oh no. I'd better go drink all the shit under the sink - Loose Cannon says I lost all credibility on TPWW.net - my life is over. Please, don't be so condescending. It just makes you look ridiculous. Vince McMahon knows how to market wrestling to the people who watch it. His father did it, he learned the trade, and now he's doing it. He's a promoter just like any other. But he doesn't know SHIT when it comes to talent. Let's look at the list of guys he's wasted over the years: -Rob Van Dam -Rhino -Spanky -Frankie Kazarian -Paul London -Dean Malenko -Akio -Charlie Haas -Ultimo Dragon The list goes on and on, but I don't wish to continue. Vince can promote, but he wouldn't recognize talent if it shit in his soup.

If he doesn't reconginze talent how come he signed incredibly talented workers?

[Fox]

His scouts told him to.

If he DOES recognize talent, why didn't he use them? You see, it's not about what you HAVE, it's HOW you USE it.

[PureHatred]

Originally Posted by legend If he doesn't reconginze talent how come he signed incredibly talented workers?

Shhhhh....Vince makes almost all his contractual decisions based on what Sophie tells him in EWR.

"Free Agent Hulk Hogan has CHARISMA, but he's also 55? Hmmmmmm...."

[McLegend]

Originally Posted by Fox His scouts told him to. If he DOES recognize talent, why didn't he use them? You see, it's not about what you HAVE, it's HOW you USE it.

Yeah so he doesn't USE talent correctly, but he can still recongize talent pretty well.

Sorry jump off topic

I'm kind of on the fence about Rhino winning. I probably would have had Jarret retain, but this move won't kill TNA in the long run.

[Loose Cannon]

Originally Posted by Fox Oh no. I'd better go drink all the shit under the sink - Loose Cannon says I lost all credibility on TPWW.net - my life is over. Please, don't be so condescending. It just makes you look ridiculous. Vince McMahon knows how to market wrestling to the people who watch it. His father did it, he learned the trade, and now he's doing it. He's a promoter just like any other. But he doesn't know SHIT when it comes to talent. Let's look at the list of guys he's wasted over the years: -Rob Van Dam -Rhino -Spanky -Frankie Kazarian -Paul London -Dean Malenko -Akio -Charlie Haas -Ultimo Dragon The list goes on and on, but I don't wish to continue. Vince can promote, but he wouldn't recognize talent if it shit in his soup.

yea, I can't argue with Hardcore Marks like you. All you guys do is BITCH AND BITCH about this guy being wasted and ROH/CZW/Insert Independent company here, and here, being an awesome company and how storylines are stupid and how you love the crazy spots and how WWE is the devil.

You just don't get the business side of wrestling and can't realize that all of those guys you listed, excpet RVD and Malenko, just don't have "it" to be used how you wanted them to be used. Face it, the mass audience doesn't care about them enough for them to amount to anything in the WWE.

And Malenko wasn't misuded at all. He was definately not good enough to be a main focal point, but he was highlighted a lot in WCW and WWF.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by PureHatred Shhhhh....Vince makes almost all his contractual decisions based on what Sophie tells him in EWR. "Free Agent Hulk Hogan has CHARISMA, but he's also 55? Hmmmmmm...."

But.... Sophie works for me. THAT WHORE!!!!!!

[RemyRed]

Originally Posted by Fox Let's look at the list of guys he's wasted over the years: -Rob Van Dam -Rhino -Spanky -Frankie Kazarian -Paul London -Dean Malenko -Akio -Charlie Haas -Ultimo Dragon The list goes on and on, but I don't wish to continue. Vince can promote, but he wouldn't recognize talent if it shit in his soup.

The majority of those guys. while talented, wouldn't draw a dime.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon yea, I can't argue with Hardcore Marks like you. All you guys do is BITCH AND BITCH about this guy being wasted and ROH/CZW/Insert Independent company here, and here, being an awesome company and how storylines are stupid and how you love the crazy spots and how WWE is the devil. You just don't get the business side of wrestling and can't realize that all of those guys you listed, excpet RVD and Malenko, just don't have "it" to be used how you wanted them to be used. Face it, the mass audience doesn't care about them enough for them to amount to anything in the WWE. And Malenko wasn't misuded at all. He was definately not good enough to be a main focal point, but he was highlighted a lot in WCW and WWF.

Are you fucking high, mang?

How exactly can the mass audience care about someone when they don't even get a fucking shot at making them care? You know, some people actually enjoy watching an unscripted, un-road agent specified match every now and then, which is what most of those guys do best. But that's not the WWE way, so those guys didn't get over.

You can't sit there and tell me that Paul London couldn't get over if he were allowed to pull out all the stops against guys like, oh I don't know, Rob Van Dam and Akio? They would steal the show every night. Maybe that's what Paully Levesque and Jibble and Undertaker are afraid of?

Malenko did get good treatment in WCW in the mid-90's, and you know why? BECAUSE HE WAS BOOKED AS A GREAT WRESTLER! He was booked as a bad ass technical wrestler, put into a feud with Chris Jericho (which actually featured, GASP, WRESTLING MATCHES!) and he got over.

In WWE he was the most unimportant member of the Radicals, then he was some stupid secret agent lover type guy, then he became a road agent. Yeah, he really got the chance to shine there.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by RemyRed The majority of those guys. while talented, wouldn't draw a dime.

I'm not suggesting we put Akio and Paul London in the main event. I am, however, suggesting that they be used to their fullest potential. They're not talkers, they're no Rock or Austin on the microphone, but they are great WRESTLERS. They have creativity and ability in the ring, but they were hindered because of the WWE's formulaic style of wrestling. Why do you think Frankie Kazarian left after two weeks?

[Loose Cannon]

Just shut up. People are agreeing with me here and probaby will argue this for me, so I'm done with you.

You're just a bitter smark

[loopydate]

Originally Posted by RemyRed The majority of those guys. while talented, wouldn't draw a dime.

No no no. Why does everyone think that "hasn't drawn a dime" and "wouldn't/couldn't draw a dime" are the same thing? Just because someone isn't used properly doesn't mean that they can't be a draw. Stunning Steve Austin wasn't used properly, either.

With the proper push, seven out of the nine guys on that list could/would have drawn.

Rob Van Dam - If WWE had put the title on him in summer 2001, they would have done amazing business. He was the most over guy in the company at that point.

Rhino - Instead of immediately burying him as Edge & Christian's lackey, they should have emphasized the fact that he was the last ECW Champion and had him dominate the Hardcore Division which (let's face it) needed something at that point. Having an unstoppable "rookie monster" become that division's focal point would have made the belt actually mean something and would have made Rhino a star. From there, who knows? A successful Hardcore run leads to the IC division. Put him with a mouthpiece manager (Paul Heyman?), and aim him at the babyface World Champion.

Spanky/Frankie Kazarian/Paul London - Let's not forget that Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels were considered too small, too. All three of these guys have tremendous charisma and movesets that get the crowd on their feet. Play Spanky or London up as HBK's chosen successor. Start him in tag team matches with his mentor, where he gets a chance to showcase his moveset. Eventually, when the crowd gets firmly behind this newcomer, start planting the seeds of HBK becoming jealous of his student starting to get bigger reactions than he is. "Miscommunications" in tag matches lead to HBK finally getting fed up and superkicking his protege and boom, you've got a main-event feud.

While the HBK-protege story doesn't work as well for Kazarian, the guy's charisma can't be denied. And his character was starting to get reactions. Maybe (and this is a novel idea) if WWE hadn't stuck him on Velocity for the entirety of his run and had, instead, given him the spot that Ken Kennedy moved into (the cocky, obnoxious heel who, by hook or crook, somehow keeps pulling off these "impossible" upsets). Cocky heels have always drawn.

Dean Malenko - If Chris Benoit can draw, so can Dean Malenko. They're practically the same wrestler, except Benoit had a little more aerial-based stuff.

Charlie Haas - Can we say Kurt Angle?

Akio and Ultimo Dragon, while immensely talented, have the grave misfortune of being of Asian descent. For one reason or another, American wrestling fans just don't identify that well with Asian wrestlers. They'll be amazed by their breathtaking movesets, but they'd never consider them a credible World Champion.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon Just shut up. People are agreeing with me here and probaby will argue this for me, so I'm done with you. You're just a bitter smark

Ahh, the words of the defeated. Beautiful.

You back out because you have no retaliation for my previous reply to you. It's okay. Nobody thinks the less of you.

[PureHatred]

Originally Posted by Fox I'm not suggesting we put Akio and Paul London in the main event. I am, however, suggesting that they be used to their fullest potential. They're not talkers, they're no Rock or Austin on the microphone, but they are great WRESTLERS. They have creativity and ability in the ring, but they were hindered because of the WWE's formulaic style of wrestling. Why do you think Frankie Kazarian left after two weeks?

While I agree that the WWE has no fucking clue how to use the CW division, that still doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, TNA just puts its major belt on a guy who they basically used as midcard fodder for the past two months.

Whether you argue the sports entertainment/business side or the wrestling fan side, Rhino is no great shakes in either case. Hes just so-so in the ring, He can't cut a promo to save his life. He got his monster push in ECW by default; everyone else had either left or were hurt. And he really hasn't connected with the TNA crowd. Maybe that'll change after tonight.

Also, try to look past your personal biases when you assess Monty Brown. Because he is hugely over with the TNA audience..

[Loose Cannon]

Originally Posted by Fox Ahh, the words of the defeated. Beautiful. You back out because you have no retaliation for my previous reply to you. It's okay. Nobody thinks the less of you.

well since you really want me to reply, I will. But since it's 1am here and I have to get up for school in 6 hours, I'll do it tomorrow.

[loopydate]

Originally Posted by PureHatred While I agree that the WWE has no fucking clue how to use the CW division, that still doesn;'t change the fact that, at the end of the day, TNA just puts its major belt on a guy who they basically used as midcard fodder for the past two months.

Yeah, but they haven't been on TV for the past two months, so nobody but us knows that.

Whether you argue the sports entertainment/business side or the wrestlign fan side, Rhino is nbo great shakes in either case. Hes just so-so in the ring, He can't cut a promo to save his life.

The same thing can be said about Abyss. Give him a mouthpiece and you cover up his mic problems. Keep him in Monster's Ball matches and you cover up his workrate problems.

He got his monster push in ECW by default; everyone else had either left or were hurt.

This is true, but he made the most of it didn't he?

And he really hasn't connected with the TNA crowd. Maybe that'll change after tonight.

Only one way to find out, right?

Also, try to look past your personal biases when you assess Monty Brown. Because he is hugely over with the TNA audience..

Monty's another one in the vein of Rhino and Abyss. Big, scary, and intense, but mediocre on the mic and in the ring. But Monty was given a gimmick he plays to the hilt, and his "legit" background was bound to connect.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Fox Let's look at the list of guys he's wasted over the years: -Rob Van Dam -Rhino -Spanky -Frankie Kazarian -Paul London -Dean Malenko -Akio -Charlie Haas -Ultimo Dragon The list goes on and on, but I don't wish to continue. Vince can promote, but he wouldn't recognize talent if it shit in his soup.

To be fair, having wasted that many people in a company with not only so many workers, but also so many successes, doesn't say much.

Originally Posted by legend If he doesn't reconginze talent how come he signed incredibly talented workers?

Of course, the numbers argument swings this way too. Given the volume of talent, the fact that he has talent scouts and management, etc., it's not inconceivable that he could come up with some big successes amidst the junk. LEt's face it. Not every talent was a jackpot, not every gimmick was good.

I wouldn't have minded Jarrett dropping the belt, but Rhino seems like a piss-poor choice to me. Nothing against Rhino, But this is more or less out of nowhere, and he wouldn't have been on my shortlist for the belt...

...Or my long list, actually.

In better circumstances, I wouldn't be as disappointed. But right now, I can't help it.