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Old 06-06-2013, 10:46 AM   #1
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Originally Posted by Narcissus View Post
They are sending us the message of "hey, you need to care about this guy right now," but booking is telling us another story.
From what I've seen only Heyman is giving that message. Heyman is trying to prove to everyone that he is legit, no one else has bought it yet, but Axel hasn't lost yet so he's still moving forward.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:55 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
From what I've seen only Heyman is giving that message. Heyman is trying to prove to everyone that he is legit, and Axel hasn't lost yet so he's still moving forward.
Well, he's been in the main event on every RAW since he's debuted and they recap all of his segments like 7000 times. I think I can safely assume that they want him to be a big deal. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. Triple H apparently made the call to bring him in cause he's thinks he's the next "guy." It doesn't make sense to me that he'd be ready to main event shows but not ready to win main events. If he's "the guy" that you are giving your PRIME tv real estate, then he's gotta be worth investing in. There is no way around not beatinf main eventers if he is to be taken as a big deal.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:48 AM   #3
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Well, a clean victory would probably do that. But if Ryback drove an ambulance out and Axel capitalized and got the win, that doesn't hurt anything. I see what you're saying though.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:00 AM   #4
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Well for they past 3 weeks he's been used to Get HHH's attention off Lesnar and then let Ryback get the upperhand on Cena two times to put Ryback a bit over. It's to early to tell what they really want to do with him.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:07 AM   #5
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I think just going off the fact that he's being managed by Paul Heyman, who manages the other two biggest stars in the company, we can probably assume that he's supposed to be a big deal. Not to mention that he's in the main event every week. But what do I know? I could be wrong.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:46 PM   #6
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He's not the new badass on the street though he's the new "Blue Chipper" as JR used to say. No one is running in fear from him because they remember his past, he is building himself up now.

His 2 matches with Cena was more about Ryback getting one up on Cena. It also built up Axel a bit too because not he can say that he beat Cena twice.
Quote:
Losing via underhanded tactics did not tarnish his rep, Yes it did it made the fans crave his victory. No it didn't they stopped caring. After he lost the TLC match to punk how many times did you see people spam post "THE RYBACK"? Not much if at all. the allure to him was gone. ANd...how is a one-on-one event like a 3 stages of hell match with the WWE CHampion considered "on his way down the card"? I would bet after his program with Cena you will see him fall down the card, he has already peaked (i.e. Khali in 2007)
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
He's not the new badass on the street though he's the new "Blue Chipper" as JR used to say. No one is running in fear from him because they remember his past, he is building himself up now.
Wha...fuckin'...Dude, he'd be the new badass if they MADE him the new badass. In fact, you're making the same argument, just saying he needs a title instead of just having him beat top guys. You honestly think he couldn't have rolled up Cena off the Ryback ambulance distraction beFORE Cena forgot he was in a match? You expect me to believe that it's better that Triple H wandered away from the ring due to a concussion rather than falter in the ring to allow Axel to pin him by it? You are out of your god damned mind.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:15 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Afterlife View Post
You honestly think he couldn't have rolled up Cena off the Ryback ambulance distraction
That's not a clean win.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:13 PM   #9
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Tangent: I'd like to see Bryan beat Ryback at the PPV after Payback then have Big E Finish him off at Summer Slam.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:33 PM   #10
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Narc says I'm being snarky, but fuck that. Savior must explain himself to me, because my brain is overloading.

I want to be clear: I love conversation, and I encourage anyone who thinks I'm a blithering idiot to talk to me about it and enlighten me, if nothing else, as to why we see things in different lights. I am not intending to intimidate anyone who doesn't agree that Orton is a shitbag fuck sucker.

Still, though, Savior: you're killin' me, bud.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:34 PM   #11
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Also, what are they protecting by not having him get wins over the main eventers? Would Triple H or John Cena lose any credibility whatsoever by putting Axel over? I don't think os. John Cena lost probably most of his PPV matches last year and was bested by Punk on several occasions. He is no worse off for it. Now, if they brought him in as a midcard guy I could understand all of this but he's been thrusted into the main event immediately. He's either at that level or he isn't. The way they are booking this is just very confusing.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:36 PM   #12
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I just don't think Axel should beat Cena clean.

Posts 34-36 pretty much sum up that AL and I are arguing over miscommunication.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
I just don't think Axel should beat Cena clean.

Posts 34-36 pretty much sum up that AL and I are arguing over miscommunication.
Again, I say: so what? Distraction, roll-up, THEN Cena runs to find RyBack. How is that WORSE than what they chose to do?
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:50 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afterlife View Post
Again, I say: so what? Distraction, roll-up, THEN Cena runs to find RyBack. How is that WORSE than what they chose to do?
I never said it would be worse, I just said that wouldn't be clean.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:39 PM   #15
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What is your definition of clean? If Ryback cause a distraction and Curt capitalizes then Cena loses nothing. If Triple H's head explodes and Curt capitalizes then Triple H loses nothing. These count out victories just don't mean anything.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:47 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissus View Post
What is your definition of clean? If Ryback cause a distraction and Curt capitalizes then Cena loses nothing. If Triple H's head explodes and Curt capitalizes then Triple H loses nothing. These count out victories just don't mean anything.
My definition of a clean victory would be No distractions, no interference, no cheating, etc. A pure victory where no rules are broken.

Curtis could have beat HHH by pinfall but I think it was more dramatic that HHH just could not continue the match. I still think HHH should not have been able to continue after Axel pulled off a move on the outside, like whipping him into the ring post.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
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What is your definition of clean? If Ryback cause a distraction and Curt capitalizes then Cena loses nothing. If Triple H's head explodes and Curt capitalizes then Triple H loses nothing. These count out victories just don't mean anything.
I don't think the victories mean nothing, but Axel would have looked far more impressive if he had gone after Triple H when he began to falter, beat him around ringside and looked like a hungry shark that smelled blood. I still think that Axel beating Triple H with the Pedigree would have been the ultimate insult to injury and would have added more reason to want to see an Axel vs. Triple H rematch.

The only problem with Axel beating Cena by countout was that it sends the message that Cena didn't care if he lost to Axel. The roll-up finish would have been perfect. Cena wouldn't leave the ring, but his attention would be turned away from Axel, who would capitalise when he saw the opportunity.

Axel vs. Cena II could have ended almost exactly the same way, except after Ryback puts Cena through the table, Axel just laughs, knowing he has Cena where he wants him. He pulls Cena back into the ring and hits him with a Perfect Plex to get the pin.

None of the wins are "clean," but they show Axel to be opportunistic, vicious and talented. On the flip side of the coin: There is a certain psychology behind Axel just taking victories however he can. It doesn't make him much of a heel, though. He's just doing his job. I think the ball just needs to stop spinning on the type of character Axel is going to be.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:56 PM   #18
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SMH, How is that clean?

Pretend its UFC (which yes, I know you don't like it) When Jon Jones faced Chael Sonnen for the title, how clean would the title defense be if Anderson Silva got on stage grabbed a mic and started screaming "Hey Chael look over here at me!" causing Chael to look over?
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:01 PM   #19
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It isn't "clean" per say, but it is a legitimate pinfall victory. It does a whole lot more than a countout does. Pinning the world champion, whatever the circumstances, is a big deal and he would've been a much bigger deal had it gone down that way.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:03 PM   #20
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I don't disagree, what started this discussion was AL saying Curtis should have won clean.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:05 PM   #21
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Well, I think he meant "by pinfall." Technically if Cena loses via distraction, he loses "cleanly," there's just more to the context of the situation.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:11 PM   #22
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Granted losing by distraction is probably one of the cleanest dirty ways win you can get, but it still isn't clean.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:35 PM   #23
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Well, now we're arguing semantics. I'm pretty sure we all understand what he meant now
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:10 PM   #24
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And the semantics of the word "clean" frustrate me. Basically, I think if a wrestler wins their match because they have done something proactive -- it is something clean enough. By heel standards, especially. If a heel yells at the audience for too long and then a babyface rolls him up -- is that a clean victory? The heel was distracted and not paying attention. The good guy clearly took advantage of a moment of opportunity. It's just about how you look at it, of course.

I ran into opposition from Tedious when I suggested Axel beat Triple H "clean." What I meant was that Triple H's mounting injuries would get to him, Axel would jump on them, and people would be concerned about Triple H. To me, a heel seeing weakness and jumping on it is "clean" by their standards. The only thing cleaner would be if they had caused the injury themselves. But they can't help that faces are stupid and enter situations they probably shouldn't.
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Old 06-07-2013, 01:20 AM   #25
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Good grief. Pinfall, and without personally cheating, Savior. Come on, man.
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Old 06-07-2013, 01:22 AM   #26
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To me, a clean win is when you win without anything for your opponent to use as an excuse. Cheating, Distractions, Interference, etc. all make a win unclean.
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Old 06-07-2013, 01:33 AM   #27
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JTG never won a tag team title.
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:53 AM   #28
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Lucky he was only being used as an example.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:49 PM   #29
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The only thing I find awkard about Sheamus' set-up for the Brogue Kick with the White Noise is that the White Noise is such a "heavy" move that his opponent should probably be down and out. As CSL says, it works so don't fuck with it, but it just seems like his opponent should be sort of dead after that.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:56 PM   #30
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To me it kind of seems like Taker setting up the Chokeslam with the Tombstone. The Brogue Kick should probably be Sheamus' "out of nowhere" finish, while he sets up for head and neck region for White Noise. When he goes after the back of his opponents, it should be The Irish Curse and the Texas Cloverleaf.

Ha! Look at me. I'm telling a fucking pro like Sheamus how he should wrestle. This is why we are frowned upon. The dude knows what he is doing. I'm not complaining about it (Sheamus is a bigger dude who can wrestle about as well as anybody his size ever has), but I do get how it looks awkward. All the pros do something like that. Eg. Christian using a Spear.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:04 AM   #31
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Quote:
ANd...how is a one-on-one event like a 3 stages of hell match with the WWE CHampion considered "on his way down the card"?
Quote:
I would bet after his program with Cena you will see him fall down the card, he has already peaked
Mark my words he's gonna keep falling.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:30 AM   #32
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Just wanted to bump this to say I was 100% right in this thread especially during this exchange (me in white, Afterlife purple):

Quote:
Losing via underhanded tactics did not tarnish his rep, Yes it did it made the fans crave his victory. No it didn't they stopped caring. After he lost the TLC match to punk how many times did you see people spam post "THE RYBACK"? Not much if at all. the allure to him was gone. ANd...how is a one-on-one event like a 3 stages of hell match with the WWE CHampion considered "on his way down the card"? I would bet after his program with Cena you will see him fall down the card, he has already peaked (i.e. Khali in 2007)
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Old 03-26-2014, 07:40 PM   #33
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Gotta admit Big Vic was right
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Old 03-26-2014, 10:34 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Savior View Post
Gotta admit Big Vic was right
Gotta admit Savior was right
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Old 03-26-2014, 07:40 PM   #35
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Finally some recognition
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Old 03-26-2014, 07:41 PM   #36
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No problem, homie you deserve it.
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Old 03-26-2014, 07:42 PM   #37
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Thank you, they should call you "Big Paul" for your big heart.
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Old 03-26-2014, 07:42 PM   #38
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and my big cock
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Old 03-26-2014, 08:10 PM   #39
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Old 03-26-2014, 08:38 PM   #40
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Gee, Savior. I don't know why I ever thought you were annoying.
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