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Old 10-04-2016, 06:31 AM   #1
hb2k
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Your "Mount Rushmore" of All-Arounders

So for this weeks podcast, we're looking to debate a theoretical "Mt. Rushmore", based on being the best all-around performers ever, the most complete packages, of all time, and we'd like to get some feedback on the topic.

Typically a Mt. Rushmore discussion centres around fame and prominence, but if you applied the same idea to pure talent, and those who were great in every area of the field (whether it be in-ring work, promos, presence, effectiveness, etc), who would you put on your Mt. Rushmore of "All-arounders", and why?

As always, we'll be reading the best contributions on the show and crediting you accordingly. So which four guys do you think stood out as being the best, most flawless and well-rounded performers above the rest?

EDIT - Our show debating the Mount Rushmore of All-Arounders, featuring many of your contributions, is now online and available to listen to at the following link: http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean...._Arounders.mp3





Crazy Like A Fox - The Definitive Chronicle of Brian Pillman 20 Years Later
**Featuring interviews with members of the Pillman family, Dave Meltzer, Kim Wood, Raven, Jim Cornette, Mark Madden, Shane Douglas, Mark Coleman, Alex Marvez, Les Thatcher and many more close friends and colleagues**
Available on Amazon now:
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Old 10-04-2016, 07:39 AM   #2
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John Cena
Don't think the guy has had a legit bad match in a really long time. While some of his promos are goofy, those are for the kids and they eat it up. When a feud is hot, and the promos get serious, they are the best in the business.

Kurt Angle
Guy just does everything well. One thing about Kurt is he is genuinely funny, and can make a complete ass of himself, but a second later he can switch on that unique intensity of his, and be a legit badass. The two don't conflict at all.

HBK
One of the best in ring performers of all time, and great at adding genuine emotion to feuds and matches. Always a big match feel as well.

Keiji Mutoh/Great Muta
Almost put Misiwa here, but he was kind of lame in the personality department where as Mutoh was bringing his unique charisma to the world when Nakamura was still in grade school. Hell, the guy got super over in wcw without even speaking a word. And the way he has been able to successfully adapt and change with every era, brings comparisons to the Undertaker.

All four guys are extremely versatile in the ring, and can wrestle any style. And they can manipulate a crowd (even one who likes to jeer him in cenas case) effortlessly.
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Old 10-04-2016, 08:13 AM   #3
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Very cool topic. I was wondering when the "Mt. Rushmore" one was coming, but the all-rounder thing is very interesting. I imagine a lot of the wonderful guys from the past will be underrepresented.

* Jerry Lawler better get a few votes. One of those guys that was so good he was making enough money in Tennessee and didn't need to go anywhere else to highlight how good he was.

* Ric Flair is another guy who springs to mind when you think "the greatest at all things." Some criticize his ring work for being repetitive, but the Ric Flair formula was a good fucking formula. If you had what Ric Flair had...well, you'd be Ric Flair, wouldn't you, and you're not Ric Flair, are you? Maybe you should go and ask your mother or Halle Berry just how well-rounded Ric Flair is?

* When it comes to personality and wrestling skill both being high, I imagine that Randy Savage will get one or two votes. An iconic wrestling personality that has created some immortal memories to coexist with some classic matches.

* I feel like I should say Shawn Michaels, but he's competing with Austin for my last place. It's really hard to say who I kick out, but I guess I have to bump King in order to place Austin and Michaels on there. Rock barely misses out. A great worker, but a lot more of a personality guy.

* But then you've got Kurt Angle, who is a great modern choice. The most natural wrestler ever, a hilarious promo and ultimately one of the best talents wrestling has produced.

My Mt. Rushmore has to be: Randy Savage, Kurt Angle and Stone Cold Steve Austin in cowboy hats, and Shawn Michaels in his Playgirl pose. But wait...what's that being air-lifted down? It's a golden Ric Flair head, mid-woo, crying real tears that flood the natives' land. This is Flair Country now. It's only fitting that wrestling breaks the rules, and Ric Flair pays for his own addition to wrestling's Mt. Rushmore of all-rounders.

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Old 10-04-2016, 08:18 AM   #4
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I kept mine modern cause you could easily do two different lists, based on how different things are now from the old days.
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Old 10-04-2016, 08:42 AM   #5
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Eddie Guerrero - One of the very few smaller stature guys who mixed in more complex power moves than a standing suplex. When giving the chance later in his career, literally proved that WCW maybe floundered and opp to make a superstar out of him because his mic skills and charachter development were great.

Kurt Angle- Dont even need to talk about his wrestling. His promo ability from the start was incredible. I remember his fake interviews with Austin being incredible. His entire work with Stone Cold is so underrated . His comedic timing in the ring was fantastic. He toed the line between being straight comedic and being serious threat as good as anyone.

Chris Benoit- I'm not going to let revisionist history change what i know. Chris Benoit was the best in ring worker of all time. Not only in WCW, but in WWE too. He didnt need comedy to get over. His intensity alone was amazing. I remember one match where Benoit was busted open above the eye. He gets up and does the slashing of the throat gesture and his eye gushes blood and i'm just like holy fuck. Ya maybe he didnt plan that, but for fuck sakes it was one of the best things i ever saw. His matches with Kurt Angle are so underrated its sickening. Later in his career the comedy that was spawned from his intensity, especially via The Rock, was fantasticl.

Stone Cold Steve Austin- I think Austin is the best All-round of all time. I really believe this. His in-ring work is underrated. Lets remember. Stone Cold was apart of 3 of the Greatest matches of all time ( Hart, Michaels, Rock ). He was a big part of those too. Also quite possibly the main reason WWE hung in against WCW during the NWO phase. His work with Vince as the guy who had disreguard for authority was amazing. And then later on in his career when he went heel, he inspired the " What ? " chants, which still today WWE tries hard to teach there wrestlers to work around in promo's because people still chant " What? ".
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Old 10-04-2016, 08:58 AM   #6
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In alphabetical order:

Kurt Angle - He's going to come up a lot in this thread and with good reason. One of the best in-ring workers of all time, and he's such a versatile performer. Heel or face, serious or goofy, Kurt always made it work.

Randy Savage - Best voice in the history of the business, and as per usual for this list the guy could work rings around most guys. It was hard to have a bad Savage match when he was in his prime.

Ric Flair - Balls to people who use being formulaic as a knock against him. People were into it for a long ass time and we all know how great he was on the stick.

Shawn Michaels - Barely giving him the edge over Austin just because of his career resurgence, 4 years after people thought he'd never wrestle again he returns and goes on to wrestle for 8 more years, rarely having a bad match along the way.
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Old 10-04-2016, 11:56 AM   #7
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Vince McMahon, Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, with a close #5 being The Berzerker. The man did so much for professional wrestling
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Old 10-04-2016, 12:11 PM   #8
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Kevin Owens, Adam Cole BAY BAY, Young Bucks.
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Old 10-04-2016, 12:16 PM   #9
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Purely modern WWE and purely guys who had no real weakness in their game, so excluding people like HBK (just passable promo), Cena (prob 4 star in ring rather than 5) etc... Being harsh to bring light to the true all rounders.

Kurt Angle...excelled early in every aspect. Was best in ring performer on the roster and could do comedy to bad ass on a week's notice. Took to promos so easily too. The ultimate total package for me.

Eddie Guerrero...seems like wrestling was just in his blood and he was naturally gifted. He seemed to soak up every aspect of the business and learned and grew as a performer over time. By the time he hit his stride in WWE, he was charismatic, phenomenal in ring and could cut passionate promos with the best of them.

Chris Jericho...never stopped his reinvention and it didn't matter what direction you took his character...he got things over. I thought his stop and start returns were going to tarnish his legacy slightly, but this longer term run, where in his mid-forties, he is easily the most entertaining guy on the roster, proves his talents. Great matches, great promos, but ultimately he is the performer of the list. Just knows how to work a crowd.

William Regal...for me, the best talent never to hold a world title. You could give this man anything to do and he would make the best of it. His facial reactions and dramatics are some of my fondest memories of wrestling growing up. He was the ultimate character on a TV show like Raw, but in ring, he was phenomenal too. An amalgamation of styles learned from his globetrotting career came together to make his matches so interesting and unique. He has absolutely everything, and its such a pity certain events held back what should have been a world class career for a 5 star all rounder.
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Old 10-04-2016, 01:07 PM   #10
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Chris Jericho - Been around for ages. Constantly reinventing himself and making himself relevant. While being killer in the ring and killer on the mic.

Kurt Angle - Could really just do it all. Played the goof or the super serious dude to a tee, and got it done every time in the ring.

Christian - Kind of like Jericho, but never quite achieving the success he did. A long career of constantly reinventing and tweaking his character to stay relevant. Could do it all, and was great in the ring.

Eddie Guerrero - Guy just had..... IT. No matter what he was doing, he seemed to command attention. From beating up his nephew in WCW, to word champion in WWE..... he wasn't always in the spotlight, but he always made whatever he was involved with entertaining to watch.


I don't remember how many faces there are on Mt Rushmore.....

Ok, google says there are four..... thought there were five for some reason..... guess I will stop there..... Randy Savage close to making it, but I feel like the latter part of his career in WCW dragged him down a bit to where he didn't make it......
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Old 10-04-2016, 01:24 PM   #11
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Nick Bockwinkel
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Old 10-04-2016, 01:32 PM   #12
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Old 10-04-2016, 01:34 PM   #13
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I'll post my response, but I'm too lazy to go into detail. Hence - my response likely won't be read on air.

My four are as follows:

1) Steve Austin

2) Kurt Angle

3) Shawn Michaels

4) Bret Hart
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Old 10-04-2016, 01:38 PM   #14
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Kurt Angle- One of the best ever in the ring. Could make you hate him if he was a heel and love him as a face. Obvious choice really.

Dusty Rhodes- If were going all arounders I feel Dusty deserves a spot. Was a great talker and the perfect guy to teach promos in NXT. From an all around standpoint the guy could work anywhere on the card and have success.

Chris Jericho- The guy gets "it!" and is one of the most entertaining wrestle of his time. Another guy that can do just about anything and make it great. Has won just about every type of title there is from a TV title to a Cruiserweight title to being the Undisputed champion. All around I think the guy deserves a spot.

Roddy Piper- Got to have Piper on my Rushmore. Another great talker and a guy that could have any segment on the show make great. Pipers Pit started a theme that still goes on today with guys like Miz and Jericho having their own shows.
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Old 10-04-2016, 01:57 PM   #15
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I made my list around a couple of simple criteria for what I consider an "all-arounder." To make the list you have/had to:

A) Have exceptional mic and in-ring skills, a good look, AND exude charisma.

B) You must work well as both a heel and face (even if you only did one for a short period of time.)

If both of these are not met then you do not qualify as an "all-arounder" in my honest opinon.

John Cena - The man has the perfect look to be "the guy" and he's got more charisma and talking ability in his pinkie finger than half the wrestlers to ever live combined. He's also proven himself to be IMHO the best "top guy" in the ring that WWE's ever had (by "top guy" I mean Hogan, Rock, Austin, etc.)

Shawn Michaels - While I'd argue he never achieved "top guy" status (this is debatable I suppose) Michaels is by far one of the best "all around" performers pro-wrestling has ever seen. He might not have been a giant, but he still had a great look, and his in-ring and mic skills were damn near unmatched.

The Undertaker - The man has had one of the longest and most prosperous careers in the history of the business. While his early ring work wasn't quite up to snuff he more than made up for it with his stellar work in the last near decade. He also may never have had the same way with words guys like Michaels and Cena have, but he still was able to make an entire arena and everyone at home take heed every time he uttered even a short promo. I mean what other guys in history can we say could get millions of people pumped up with three simple words? One phrase, "Rest. In. Peace," and the Undertaker could do what most can't in an entire 10 minute promo.

Kurt Angle - He's Kurt "I won a gold medal with a broken freakin' neck" Angle. What more is there to say?
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Old 10-04-2016, 02:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
He's also proven himself to be IMHO the best "top guy" in the ring that WWE's ever had (by "top guy" I mean Hogan, Rock, Austin, etc.)
Sorry man.

I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but this comment pisses me off greatly. I'm not sure if you're too young to remember Austin from back in the day, but the dude was a fucking beast. Almost all of his feuds and matches were of 5 star calibre. Austin/HBK, Austin/Rock, Austin/Angle, Austin/Bret, Austin/Owen, Austin/Taker, etc., etc.

With respect to Cena, he couldn't hold Austin's jockstrap in terms of in-ring ability.
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Old 10-04-2016, 02:06 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
Sorry man.

I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but this comment pisses me off greatly. I'm not sure if you're too young to remember Austin from back in the day, but the dude was a fucking beast. Almost all of his feuds and matches were of 5 star calibre. Austin/HBK, Austin/Rock, Austin/Angle, Austin/Bret, Austin/Owen, Austin/Taker, etc., etc.

With respect to Cena, he couldn't hold Austin's jockstrap in terms of in-ring ability.
As I said it's my opinion. You're welcome to disagree, but I do in fact remember a lot of Austin's work, and I've re-watched a lot of it too. I just don't feel like he was as good in the ring, nor as versatile as Cena is. I also feel like a lot of Austin's best matches were thanks to his opponents rather than his own skill. The same could be argued for Cena, but I honestly think Cena has carried more people to great matches than Austin did. Anyone can have a great match with someone as great as HBK, Angle, Bret, or Owen.

Also I'm not factoring in feuds here because if I were Austin would definitely be on the list. I'm just looking at overall ability, not the context in which that ability was used.
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Old 10-04-2016, 02:11 PM   #18
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Oh, I'd also like to clarify that my list is based around looking at each guy's abilities overall. I'd say Austin is better than Cena in many areas, but the way I look at it Cena averages out to a higher overall score. Again, just my opinion though.

This is also not a list of my favorites or anything like that. If it were none of the guys I picked would even be on the list. I prefer Austin to Cena as he's more interesting and has created far more memories for me.
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Old 10-04-2016, 04:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad News Gertner View Post
Nick Bockwinkel
Kurt Angle
Terry Funk
Ric Flair
I very strongly considered putting Bockwinkel in mine somewhere, but I just couldn't do it on the basis that I think I'd have to go back and contrast all my picks with guys from the era, and I'd no doubt embarrass myself, being the cretinous humanoid that I am.
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Old 10-04-2016, 06:51 PM   #20
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Got time to go into further depth

1.Terry Funk: greatest all around wrestler of all time in my opinion. Has evolved consistently throughout the years. Amazing promos, awesome face or heel, can mat wrestle, brawl or bust out a moonsAult at age 54 because he's Terry Funk.

2. Ric Flair. What else can be said about Ric that hasn't. Amazing promos, amazing in the ring, just amazing all around.

3. Kurt Angle. Has there been a wrestler who got so good so fast? Entertaining as hell on the mic. Can be a goofy babyface or a submission machine.

4. Nick Bockwinkel: Nick is a champions champion. Possibly the most eloquent and arrogant on the mic. Outstanding in ring work compliments his mic skills. One of my favourites.
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Old 10-04-2016, 06:53 PM   #21
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Honourable mentions go to HBK, Dick Murdoch, and Macho Man.

Really wanted to include Murdoch on this because he doesn't get talked about enough. Fucking LOVE Murdoch
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Old 10-04-2016, 07:11 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Bad News Gertner View Post
Nick Bockwinkel
Kurt Angle
Terry Funk
Ric Flair
Lol, what a fucking troll
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Old 10-04-2016, 07:24 PM   #23
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Chris Jericho
Bret Hart
HBK
Ric Flair

Went with the first four names that came to mind for my list and a mix of eras.
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Old 10-04-2016, 07:26 PM   #24
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Old 10-04-2016, 07:45 PM   #25
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All the people saying Undertaker, I do have to ask: Really? I mean, I get that you either love him or respect his longevity and contributions to the business, but what exactly makes him an "all-rounder?" I can't remember any great Undertaker promos. Also, a lot of his ring work is the drizzlies. There was like a period of about two years where Taker didn't have one good match. I can understand him making a Mt. Rushmore of gimmicks, or of guys over 300lbs, or of iconic WrestleMania performers -- actually, I think he would be bumped from all those lists. Hogan, Macho Man, Austin, Michaels...yep, he's out. Maybe he'd make a Mt. Rushmore of big guys with hats.
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Old 10-04-2016, 07:54 PM   #26
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Flair
Jericho
Savage
I'm surprised no mention of AJ Styles but I think He's right up there
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Old 10-04-2016, 07:55 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
All the people saying Undertaker, I do have to ask: Really? I mean, I get that you either love him or respect his longevity and contributions to the business, but what exactly makes him an "all-rounder?" I can't remember any great Undertaker promos. Also, a lot of his ring work is the drizzlies. There was like a period of about two years where Taker didn't have one good match. I can understand him making a Mt. Rushmore of gimmicks, or of guys over 300lbs, or of iconic WrestleMania performers -- actually, I think he would be bumped from all those lists. Hogan, Macho Man, Austin, Michaels...yep, he's out. Maybe he'd make a Mt. Rushmore of big guys with hats.
#HeelNoid
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Old 10-04-2016, 08:11 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
All the people saying Undertaker, I do have to ask: Really? I mean, I get that you either love him or respect his longevity and contributions to the business, but what exactly makes him an "all-rounder?" I can't remember any great Undertaker promos. Also, a lot of his ring work is the drizzlies. There was like a period of about two years where Taker didn't have one good match. I can understand him making a Mt. Rushmore of gimmicks, or of guys over 300lbs, or of iconic WrestleMania performers -- actually, I think he would be bumped from all those lists. Hogan, Macho Man, Austin, Michaels...yep, he's out. Maybe he'd make a Mt. Rushmore of big guys with hats.
He didn't need to have "good promos." Like I said in my explanation he is able to do in 3 words what most guys can't with entire drawn out promos. As for the ring work stuff, well, you're right, but we also know he is in fact cable of great matches. Just because someone doesn't always live up to their potential doesn't mean they don't have said potential. Hell, Hogan was better in the ring than anyone gives him credit for, but we rarely saw it. Same applies to Cena who for years had by numbers matches over and over.
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Old 10-04-2016, 09:38 PM   #29
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I agree with what you are saying there, but does that make him an all-rounder? It does make him special, I agree, but an all-rounder? The things you're saying he didn't have are the things that I think would generally be agreed upon as criteria.

Kudos to you for doing your own thing, but I think how we are defining versatility is just very different.
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Old 10-04-2016, 09:40 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lock Jaw View Post
#HeelNoid
Apparently I'm the bad guy for showing up in this town and observing that all the incompetent cretins that haven't been able to elect a mayor because they can't spell "X" on the ballot paper are all married to people who look eerily similar to them? I can't tell if these people are trying to boo me or breathe through their mouths. But take it all in, because this is rarefied air, and once I retain my AWA World Heavyweight Championship, I'll paint "Closed" on the "Population: Too Many" sign out the front of your stupid town, so you all leave and I don't have to come back here.
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Old 10-04-2016, 09:47 PM   #31
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Shawn Michaels
Ric Flair
Jerry Lawler
Randy Savage

I had a hard time with my fourth, also considered Austin, Rock, Eddie, Piper & Angle
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Old 10-04-2016, 11:11 PM   #32
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Savage, Flair, Angle definitely.

For 4th here's a couple less obvious choices:

The Rock - Dude definitely has the look and the mic skills. I feel like he was always a better wrestler than given credit for. He could do everything passably. Not unlike Cena, who has been mentioned several times.

Scott Hall - why the fuck not? I mean, yeah, bad decisions ruined a lot of what could have been, but... He definitely had the look. He could cut a great promo heel or face. He oozed machismo, obviously. And he wasn't quite as versatile as some, but he could work.

Ted DiBiase - I really can't remember him ever being face, but the Million Dollar Man was a monster heel gimmick and there's no doubt that he was one of the best promos ever. And he could wrestle circles around almost anyone in the 80s.

Mr. Perfect - do I really need to explain?
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Old 10-04-2016, 11:28 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicky Fives View Post
Shawn Michaels
Ric Flair
Jerry Lawler
Randy Savage

I had a hard time with my fourth, also considered Austin, Rock, Eddie, Piper & Angle
If you choose Lawler he has to do the chiseling since he was the booker.
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Old 10-04-2016, 11:48 PM   #34
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Old 10-05-2016, 12:01 AM   #35
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Randy Savage
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Shawn Michaels.
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Old 10-05-2016, 12:06 AM   #36
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I agree with what you are saying there, but does that make him an all-rounder? It does make him special, I agree, but an all-rounder? The things you're saying he didn't have are the things that I think would generally be agreed upon as criteria.

Kudos to you for doing your own thing, but I think how we are defining versatility is just very different.
Fair enough. Personally I'm grading guys on an imaginary scale sorta like how the WWE games used to (or maybe still do) have the overall ratings. To me Undertaker's overall rating when you calculate up his in-ring ability, charisma, mic skills, etc comes out really high. Of course I'd say he's ranked lower in mic skills than the others on my list, but his other areas make up for it in my eyes. I think I'm also adding in the intangible "it factor" to the mix too. Anyway the OP asked for our own personal mount Rushmores so I don't really think there's a wrong answer. Like you said, we all grade differently. I mean a lot of guys have been putting older wrestlers on their list, but I left anyone who wasn't around full-time after late '97/'98 off because I wasn't watching before then and it'd be hard for me to judge guys I don't know much about.
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Old 10-05-2016, 01:15 AM   #37
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Don't know if I can pick just four:

Rock, Austin, Angle, HBK, Flair, Cena, Savage.
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Old 10-05-2016, 01:35 PM   #38
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Fair enough. Personally I'm grading guys on an imaginary scale sorta like how the WWE games used to (or maybe still do) have the overall ratings. To me Undertaker's overall rating when you calculate up his in-ring ability, charisma, mic skills, etc comes out really high. Of course I'd say he's ranked lower in mic skills than the others on my list, but his other areas make up for it in my eyes. I think I'm also adding in the intangible "it factor" to the mix too. Anyway the OP asked for our own personal mount Rushmores so I don't really think there's a wrong answer. Like you said, we all grade differently. I mean a lot of guys have been putting older wrestlers on their list, but I left anyone who wasn't around full-time after late '97/'98 off because I wasn't watching before then and it'd be hard for me to judge guys I don't know much about.
Oh, it's not wrong, per se, but I'm just not sure I agree with the assessment that even with that criteria that Taker is up there. Maybe in terms of kayfabe...but then surely John Cena, Randy Orton, Triple H and Edge are all better? And Brock because he's good in the ring, beat Taker at WrestleMania, and his little vignettes in the back are as effective as Rock promos.

When it comes to "it factor," I also tried to factor in drawing power to some extent. I almost kicked Shawn Michaels off my list because of it. Taker is, historically, one of the worst drawing champions of all-time -- especially as a babyface. If that doesn't measure "it factor," I don't know what does.

He's got that gimmick mystique, which I think helps any big man, but Andre the Giant had mystique too. Could you put him on an all-rounders list?
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Old 10-05-2016, 01:38 PM   #39
Ruien
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Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Noid is right. Cena should be there instead of Taker. I was drawing a blank on my last guy to pick.
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Old 10-05-2016, 01:39 PM   #40
Clerk
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Clerk has a good deal of rep (10,000+)Clerk has a good deal of rep (10,000+)Clerk has a good deal of rep (10,000+)Clerk has a good deal of rep (10,000+)Clerk has a good deal of rep (10,000+)Clerk has a good deal of rep (10,000+)
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