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Old 04-17-2018, 10:03 PM   #81
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I mean his storylines. Yeah you can present yourself well but if they're booking you as a babyface to, say, be running away like a pussy from Kane, you're dead in the water.
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:06 PM   #82
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Oh yeah, you're 100% right there. SmackDown has fucking sucked, what with James Ellsworth and Jinder Mahal: Main Event Stars.
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:30 PM   #83
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Because when you're cutting a promo, you're selling something. The Miz is overrated because he's got nothing to sell. Bray Wyatt and The Miz can talk, but they aren't selling anything.
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The Miz can talk better than AJ Styles, but it doesn't mean anything because I'd prefer to watch AJ Styles perform over The Miz ten times out of ten. I'm not talking isolated mic skills -- I'm talking mic skills for a top guy. If The Miz cut a promo and then AJ said "Miz, I'm going to kick your Hollywood ass," Styles' lines would be more effective.
But again, if Nakamura, who can barely speak English, said the same line, the crowd would eat it up. Are you telling me that makes Nakamura a better mic worker than The Miz? It's presentation. You said "If we're just talking about mic skills and then looking at them in isolation..." and then went on to deduct points from people for their booking/what they can do in the ring.

Bray Wyatt as the creepy cult leader, The Miz as the Hollywood douchebag and Styles as the best in-ring performer in the company, all left on their own with a mic to sell a match, all booked completely equally, all outside factors taken out, Styles is left in the dust. He's a Tough Enough competitor doing a promo challenge by comparison.
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:34 PM   #84
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For the record, there's like 20 other guys I'd put above Styles on the mic but if we can't agree on The Miz, who seems like one of the more obvious ones, then it's kinda moot. Did not expect you to give me Sami Zayn but not The Miz. lol
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:45 PM   #85
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Fan: AJ is the drizzling shits on the mic

Us: No he's not

ie. this debate is going no where lol
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:57 PM   #86
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It's actually devolved into simply "He's not as good as The Miz on the mic" which I never saw coming.
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Old 04-17-2018, 11:00 PM   #87
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lol it's a unique turn which I also didn't see coming but I'm looking forward to where ol' Noidsy takes this.
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:04 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
But again, if Nakamura, who can barely speak English, said the same line, the crowd would eat it up. Are you telling me that makes Nakamura a better mic worker than The Miz? It's presentation. You said "If we're just talking about mic skills and then looking at them in isolation..." and then went on to deduct points from people for their booking/what they can do in the ring.

Bray Wyatt as the creepy cult leader, The Miz as the Hollywood douchebag and Styles as the best in-ring performer in the company, all left on their own with a mic to sell a match, all booked completely equally, all outside factors taken out, Styles is left in the dust. He's a Tough Enough competitor doing a promo challenge by comparison.
Lol, you're misconstruing me entirely. Yes, I'd say that I would consider Nakamura a better promo if his talking put asses in seats. Absolutely. Hogan would just ramble and ramble, but I absolutely consider a more effective promo than The Miz. If I said "looking at their ability to talk in isolation," that was a mistake. I don't think you can do that with a top guy. The Miz is more eloquent, has more range, can probably hit more octaves or whatever. AJ Styles is more captivating to me because his promo suits AJ Styles. If they were giving a public seminar in the same town, I'd go and see Styles' as opposed to The Miz's. Sorry, but Miz's ability to speak doesn't impress me very much, because I have zero interest in the things he has to say.

Looking at these skills in isolation is trivial to me -- because they're not in isolation. Like, I know what you're saying. The Miz can talk. I was going to say he'd be a better public speaker, but he really wouldn't be to me, because who the fuck wants to listen to The Miz? The way I see it is that there is a certain level where a promo works. AJ Styles is at a level where his promo works fine, and infused with his charisma and credibility I honestly believe they are more effective than The Miz's, therefore he is a better promo to me.
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:07 PM   #89
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It's the difference between "mic skills" and "promo ability." Jay Leno has good mic skills; it doesn't necessarily mean he's a great promo. The Miz has cut one or two really good promos that I've seen. The Talking Smack one and that one on Raw where he talked about how he's overlooked, blah, blah. AJ Styles consistently makes me want to see what he does next.
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Old 04-19-2018, 08:45 AM   #90
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AJ styles won't be the top face after Nakacockpuncher is done with him.

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Old 04-19-2018, 09:06 AM   #91
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If I went to a house show, I would rather hear Miz talk than I would AJ Styles.

I'd rather see AJ, though.
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:06 PM   #92
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If they were both public speakers, Styles might have the edge of sounding less douchey and more genuine. Fortunately for The Miz, in wrestling, coming off douchey if you're a heel is a good thing. And unfortunately for Styles, in wrestling, you have to be able to act. If Styles' promos are "effective" at all then it's for hardcore marks who are obsessed with him as a wrestler and will cheer whatever because his promo ability doesn't matter (and because he's got a cool catchphrase they can say with him like a singalong). His promos are seriously a step above a decent backyard wrestling "I'm trying to do what I think a wrestling promo is" promo filled with awkwardness. It oozes from him. He's one of those guys who tries so hard to sound confident in what he's saying that it just gives it away to a painful level and it takes away all the credibility of what he's saying. The Miz sells himself better with a mic in his hands. Way better. I believe Miz is a cocky dickhole more than I believe Styles is "the face that runs the place" or whatever other catchphrase he's using now to help him manufacture confidence.

Besides that, I'm pretty sure Miz' promos sell the typical fan on wanting to see him getting his ass kicked more than Styles's promos do on wanting to see him kick someone's ass.
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:25 PM   #93
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I think hot AJ promos are good. Geniunly quality B+ level promos. He cuts a shit cold promo though. C- at best.
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:33 PM   #94
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I usually turn the channel when I'm watching and he cuts a promo. Especially if someone else is around the TV because his promos make me embarrassed to be a wrestling fan. I actually watched his promo with Nakamura before WrestleMania and was just counting the awkward ticks and slip-ups that came from him trying to force confidence. It was brutal.
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:33 PM   #95
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Yeah his cold promos are rough
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Old 04-19-2018, 06:03 PM   #96
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Quote:
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If they were both public speakers, Styles might have the edge of sounding less douchey and more genuine. Fortunately for The Miz, in wrestling, coming off douchey if you're a heel is a good thing. And unfortunately for Styles, in wrestling, you have to be able to act. If Styles' promos are "effective" at all then it's for hardcore marks who are obsessed with him as a wrestler and will cheer whatever because his promo ability doesn't matter (and because he's got a cool catchphrase they can say with him like a singalong). His promos are seriously a step above a decent backyard wrestling "I'm trying to do what I think a wrestling promo is" promo filled with awkwardness. It oozes from him. He's one of those guys who tries so hard to sound confident in what he's saying that it just gives it away to a painful level and it takes away all the credibility of what he's saying. The Miz sells himself better with a mic in his hands. Way better. I believe Miz is a cocky dickhole more than I believe Styles is "the face that runs the place" or whatever other catchphrase he's using now to help him manufacture confidence.

Besides that, I'm pretty sure Miz' promos sell the typical fan on wanting to see him getting his ass kicked more than Styles's promos do on wanting to see him kick someone's ass.
Completely disagree. I do not see those things you see in AJ. That's your thing, but I'm hyper-critical of the product these days and I don't see them, so whatever. We're just going to disagree.
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Old 04-19-2018, 06:40 PM   #97
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So confused on why there is a debate with Miz and AJ over charisma or mic skills. Its totally one sided.
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:00 PM   #98
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Lol, in no way is The Miz as charismatic as AJ Styles. Look at their career trajectories and listen to the fan reactions for them. I can understand where #fan is coming from with the mic skills, but charisma?

Charisma =/= mic skills. It doesn't need to be loud or expressive. It can be intrinsic. AJ Styles commands an arena when he walks out there. The Miz stomps out like he wants to. He tries hard. He's got a great ethic. As far as "WWE entertaining" goes, you can give him a microphone and words will come out of his face with the intended cadence and whatever. That's like answering a multiple choice question with an essay though.

I think #fan is grading them by the WWE's usual standards of what they look for in a variety entertainer (hence his comments about acting and such). There's merit to that point. In a wrestling context though, I think that's a false framing of talent though. I think the work happens through genuine emotion, which Styles manages to milk and The Miz doesn't.

So yeah, Miz is probably perfect for the WWE right now. Charisma or not, they can push him how they like and people will just have to deal with it anyway. It's why Reigns hasn't needed to go away. Getting sick of Dolph or Bray? Deal with more of them -- we've got them locked down for 10 years. AJ has managed to navigate his way to the top of the card is such a short time because of things like his ring skills, charisma, marketabilty and his work ethic. I think the evidence as to who is a better all-round professional wrestler is there.

And that does influence your promo. I'm sorry, but it does. Otherwise you could do what Vince Russo suggested and just hire actors and train them up. A promo is not the same as a thespian monologue. Some people do tell an eloquent story with their promos (see: Cactus Jack). Others rant and rave and barely make any sense, and if it that works, it works. Just because someone can memorize ten minutes of dialogue, it does not make them an effective promo. It makes them useful for what the WWE wants. The Miz is not a better promo than Dusty Rhodes. He's not. That being said, Dusty Rhodes would be a terrible actor. Dusty absolutely fucking sucked at commentary. Promos =/= eloquence.

As a result, when AJ Styles cuts his promo, and I believe him to be genuine and I know that I'll be getting some sort of in-ring pay-off to what he's saying, I get far more into it than when The Miz hosts his "talk show" segments. If AJ Styles said "give me $20," I'll be more likely to do it than if The Miz said that. That's what a promo is there for. It's there to hype a fight. Styles can do that a lot more effectively because of his credibility than The Miz, because The Miz lacks it. His good promos have played into this and exploited that in order to make you see him either want to succeed or fail. "I was forced to change in the hallway because no one took me seriously." "You talk about what a great wrestler you are, but your neck is broken and my neck is not." Those were good. Really good. "I'm the most must-see Superstar in the WWE and I'm going to win back my Intercontinental Title!" Eh.

The Miz's delivery is ace. His verbal control could be considered better. But it goes to a delivery/deliverer diametric.
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:30 PM   #99
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If The Great Khali said "give me $20", I'd be more likely to do it than if AJ Styles said that.
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:31 PM   #100
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Nah, Styles wins that one too. Styles could catch me.
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:32 PM   #101
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Yeah AJ is loaded, he doesn't need $20.
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:32 PM   #102
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Alright, fair point. If New Jack said "give me $20", I'd be more likely to do it than if Styles did.
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:35 PM   #103
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New Jack was a great promo.
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:35 PM   #104
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Yeah AJ is loaded, he doesn't need $20.
Okay, he can just go home then?
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:38 PM   #105
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So can we at least agree that New Jack was way better than Styles?
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Old 04-19-2018, 08:16 PM   #106
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Just wanna chime in and say the miz is not charismatic. He's a good showman though.
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Old 04-19-2018, 08:17 PM   #107
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Just wanna chime in and say the miz is not charismatic. He's a good showman though.
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Old 04-19-2018, 08:19 PM   #108
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I think the Miz is very competent on the mic but his mic skills are vastly over rated.
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Old 04-19-2018, 08:22 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
So can we at least agree that New Jack was way better than Styles?
Um, I'll need to think more on that. New Jack could talk and talk, but did it pay-off? I'd fine a use for him talking, kind of like Miz, but he'd be on AJ Styles' card, and not vice versa.

We're getting deep into promo philosophy and that sort of stuff, haha. I just think you rate Styles way too low as a promo. He's got this naturalistic style and I think he has a flare for making the WWE scripts sound like they come from him as much as possible. Kurt Angle was also very good at that.

This has made me realize that I would like to see a New Jack vs. Miz feud, haha.
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Old 04-23-2018, 05:40 AM   #110
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AJ promos in TNA were bad. I haven't watched WWE in years now, is AJ that much better on the mic now?

I only ever had issues with AJ's finisher and early TNA match storytelling in general, but I did like him a lot. Thought his mic work was bad back then. Surprised he is so successful now, honestly.
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Old 04-23-2018, 10:39 AM   #111
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Miz is adequate as a heel, but he's been a bit ruined for me by the fanbase. There's too many people on WWE Facebook comments crowing about how he's the greatest commodity the company has and the best wrestler of the past 10 years, because he's been booked super strong and he gets the last word in all of his feuds.

There was a guy a week or two ago, whose argument was that Miz is a better promo and a better performer than vintage Ric Flair
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Old 04-23-2018, 10:58 AM   #112
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AJ can be a pretty brutally cringe promo, but his delivery improves tenfold if he has something important to talk about. Miz is consistent, but that can mean he cuts the same spoiled douchebag script every time he's hyping a match. "I'm important because I do movies, I hold my breath until my face turns into a tomato, ect. ect. ect. O yeah, and is My hand goes UP, your mouths go SHUT a thing yet? I really want to make that a shirt."
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Old 04-23-2018, 12:45 PM   #113
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Miz should definitely WOOOOO more.
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Old 04-23-2018, 08:39 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiss View Post
AJ promos in TNA were bad. I haven't watched WWE in years now, is AJ that much better on the mic now?

I only ever had issues with AJ's finisher and early TNA match storytelling in general, but I did like him a lot. Thought his mic work was bad back then. Surprised he is so successful now, honestly.
I think he's a lot better. He's not super-eloquent, but he delivers everything with confidence and competence. He's a far better "actor" than most of the other wrestlers too, although it's a shame that's factored in. He's seriously done some good stuff, and the content and charisma of his promos is through the charts at times.

TNA was probably good practice.
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Old 04-23-2018, 08:40 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by My Final Heaven View Post
AJ can be a pretty brutally cringe promo, but his delivery improves tenfold if he has something important to talk about. Miz is consistent, but that can mean he cuts the same spoiled douchebag script every time he's hyping a match. "I'm important because I do movies, I hold my breath until my face turns into a tomato, ect. ect. ect. O yeah, and is My hand goes UP, your mouths go SHUT a thing yet? I really want to make that a shirt."
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