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Old 10-18-2021, 04:33 PM   #161
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SmackDown: 866k
Rampage: 578k

They dropped the People’s Elbow on AEW Jakked/Metal.
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Old 10-18-2021, 04:38 PM   #162
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Tony Khan is also acting like a mark about it on Twitter. He’s cheering on people talking about the demos (again, smarten up if you think that advertisers see this as a 1:1 gauge on appeal on cable in 2021), and has accused WWE of being the ones to leak the fast nationals.

Yep, because you know — the fast nationals don’t exist on their own for a reason. Fuck’s sake.

TK, AEW themselves and that fandom make it REALLY hard to feel sorry for them when they get their ass kicked. All the pebble throwing they’re passing off as nuclear war. This makes them look weak as shit.

They got trounced by 33%. From Fox Sports 1.
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Old 10-18-2021, 05:08 PM   #163
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Since it was on YouTube, I sent Danielson vs. Suzuki to a friend who fell off of wrestling about 5 years ago. He loved it and it sold him on checking out a future show.
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Old 10-18-2021, 05:24 PM   #164
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578K and one.
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Old 10-18-2021, 05:35 PM   #165
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Damn. Imagine the honour of being the ONE in 578K and one.
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Old 10-18-2021, 06:50 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XL View Post
(Potentially) Unpopular Opinion

Potentially because I haven’t settled it in my own mind; I’m not sure I’m a big fan of “Strong Style”. Danielson/Suzuki or WALTER/Dragunov literally beating the shit out of each other is the exact opposite of what pro wrestling is supposed to be. The idea is for it to look like it hurts, not go away with a beet red chest and welts all over the body.
i love strong style. always have. strong style with king road booking is probably my favorite kind of wrestling. 2nd would be memphis or mid south. there's a wild gap between those two things of course. which to me should note just how varried wrestling can, and use to, be.



its all US indy now. wwe/aew/njpw its all us indy. just with different shades. some lean slightly more into strong style. others slightly more into lucha. but it becomes this amalgamation that isnt consistent to itself. it creates a thematic issue where the entire card should be getting concepts over and tha isnt possible with this structural vomit that is the modern product.



ive been wanting to broach this topic as a deep dive thread but every time i do it almost feels more like a book so i stop lol
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Old 10-19-2021, 04:38 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
i love strong style. always have. strong style with king road booking is probably my favorite kind of wrestling. 2nd would be memphis or mid south. there's a wild gap between those two things of course. which to me should note just how varried wrestling can, and use to, be.



its all US indy now. wwe/aew/njpw its all us indy. just with different shades. some lean slightly more into strong style. others slightly more into lucha. but it becomes this amalgamation that isnt consistent to itself. it creates a thematic issue where the entire card should be getting concepts over and tha isnt possible with this structural vomit that is the modern product.



ive been wanting to broach this topic as a deep dive thread but every time i do it almost feels more like a book so i stop lol
Please do. The internet needs more wrestling discussion like that.
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Old 10-19-2021, 07:36 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect View Post
SmackDown: 866k
Rampage: 578k

They dropped the People’s Elbow on AEW Jakked/Metal.
Is this overall rating or just the head-to-head half hour?
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Old 10-19-2021, 12:09 PM   #169
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Quote:
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Is this overall rating or just the head-to-head half hour?
That’s overall. In the head-to-head, SmackDown won by 46%. It got 878k to AEW’s 602k. This also leaves out New York and Chicago for SmackDown, and forgets that SmackDown had a replay right after, which could have been watched by AEW loyalists driven to watching them live (don’t know why they did this other than to further handicap themselves, to be honest).

Rampage only edged out in some demos. In its usual timeslot. On a better channel. With New York and Chicago. Without replays. Demos may have value in the sense if you are doing MASSIVE numbers with young people and an advertiser wants to diversify and take a shot on your program. But the television industry does not work the way Dave Meltzer tries to present it. Advertisers want more information than that, and the way television behaves has changed drastically. It’s not Homer, Marge, Bart and Lisa eating dinner in front of it watching Police Cops anymore. That is literally why the demo was “key,” and Homer Simpson is about 8 years younger than the average AEW fan. Think Power Sauce bars want to market to him? Or is Bonestorm interested when advertisers know Bart is upstairs on his iPad? Or is Malibu Stacy getting a big push when Lisa is on her laptop from 8-11pm on a Friday?

Cable is a ageing medium. Advertisers interested in it are looking at getting the people who are left. It is not trendy anymore. The overall viewership matters. The range of people matter. I get so frustrated at this, because you literally have AEW fans saying 18-49 is the only thing that matters. On cable. In 2021.
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Old 10-19-2021, 12:11 PM   #170
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Sorry, I get riled up by this stuff, haha. Head-to-head was SmackDown 878k, Rampage 602k.
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Old 10-19-2021, 12:15 PM   #171
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Old 10-19-2021, 12:20 PM   #172
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Thrillho
I considered that as a username here, but we’ve already got a thrilchuk.
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Old 10-19-2021, 12:33 PM   #173
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Just on the demos:

If you go anywhere and you ask people why they think they’re important, no one can tell you. No one. They just know that they are and that you’re wrong if you don’t think so. Try and put them into the context of the medium and people lose their minds.

“They just are! Advertisers only care about that! Why does Showbuzz rank like that then, huh?!”

Ask yourself why advertisers might have cared about that a decade ago, two decades ago even, and then think about what has changed in entertainment, media and culture. Think about what stuffy men in suits making business decisions think about wrestling and what they’re going to be impressed by.

The demo talk is by marks for marks.
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Old 10-19-2021, 12:37 PM   #174
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I considered that as a username here, but we’ve already got a thrilchuk.
He sounds pretty cool.
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Old 10-19-2021, 12:41 PM   #175
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Quote:
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Just on the demos:

If you go anywhere and you ask people why they think they’re important, no one can tell you. No one.
Destor explained it simply like yesterday...
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Old 10-19-2021, 02:40 PM   #176
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Quote:
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Sorry, I get riled up by this stuff, haha. Head-to-head was SmackDown 878k, Rampage 602k.
I was thinking to myself “he could have stopped after the first line” so thanks for the abridged version.
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Old 10-19-2021, 03:38 PM   #177
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Quote:
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Destor explained it simply like yesterday...
Destor said that they are a higher spending segment of an audience than over 60’s, right? He then went on to clarify “Well, they used to be.” Destor’s also been the most critical guy of ratings here, pointing out networks have considered flat-out dropping Nielsen.
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Old 10-19-2021, 03:45 PM   #178
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Destor explained it simply like yesterday...
Doesn't WWE justify its position as #1 on Friday nights based on the key demo? If they were to count overall viewership, they'd certainly fall behind.
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Old 10-19-2021, 03:50 PM   #179
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Quote:
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young people will always be easier to influence. you dont know what you like until youve lived and taken chances. i dont think thats generational HOWEVER if you convert a customer in their 20s you might be getting 60 years of business. you convert an 80 year old... well its not as lucrative to say the least.
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Old 10-19-2021, 03:57 PM   #180
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By the way, if you don’t think Dave Meltzer is full of shit on the subject:



If AEW were ahead in viewership, he’d be still crowing about that and talking about how demo doesn’t matter because television has changed and AEW is more realistic about how they use their platform. If AEW were ahead in women, but sucked with men, Dave would talk about how important women are to the economy now, and that companies that rely on men aren’t trendy or sexy to advertisers. If it were children, AEW is building future geniuses to earn millions of dollars and be such fans of wrestling they will personally invest in AEW sending into space for alien demographics to enjoy.
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Old 10-19-2021, 03:57 PM   #181
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Anyone who says that is a moron who's never talked to anyone in charge of a network in their life. There's a competitor that theoretically might replace Nielsen at some point because they theoretically might get more accurate ratings measurements, but Nielsen is actually also looking to purchase them.

I've explained this countless times, and your only response has been nonsensical bullshit that you're making up. I literally negotiate these kinds deals for a living for advertisers, and I regularly see the actual numbers and talk with TV execs when I'm negotiating deals with broadcasters for clients, whether I'm representing advertisers or TV production companies.

Especially when you're talking about cable, the 18-49 demo rating is the primary factor advertisers use to determine how much they're willing to pay to advertise during a certain time slot and network. Having high 18-49 viewership can be the difference between an advertiser paying $100k v. $200k or more for a 30 second spot.

The reason for that is multiple, but ultimately it comes down to $ and statistics. A 20-40 year old will typically have more (or at least be more likely to spend much more of their) disposable income on goods/services than someone who is 55+. Statistically, because people ages 55+ are both (1) retired or close to retirement, and (2) usually have adult children in the 18-49 age group who have their own purchasing power, most of them save or invest into their retirement instead of spending their excess disposable income, even though they might actually have more.

Those spending stats are still holding true and have been for decades now. I don't know anyone who actually works in the industry and knows what the hell they're talking about who would say that people under 60 are now spending more disposable income than people ages 18-45. You might have outliers in the occasional quarter as has historically always occured, but t's not happening on anything remotely close to a widespread scale consistently or across the board.
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Old 10-19-2021, 04:03 PM   #182
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Yeah, and that’s reasonable. But is it true of 47 year olds already converted to wrestling versus...55 year olds converted to wrestling? That sounds like a general statement talking about the long-term potential of getting people young, but that could be even truer about younger demos and still speaks to the importance of people as they age out of the 18-49 if they goal is to milk them for life.

There was also a discussion there about whether young people are still the ones that spend the most money and whether or not culture has changed.
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Old 10-19-2021, 04:11 PM   #183
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And whether anyone personally agrees or not, the 18-49 demo is considered the most important to TV execs (because they can typically charge higher ad rates for advertisers wanting to target the age group most important to them) so usually determines whether or not a show is seen as "successful" by them, since it typically translates to more money for the network
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Old 10-19-2021, 04:15 PM   #184
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Logical or not, advertisers covet the elusive 18 to 49 demographic. If you are under age 18 or older than 49, you pretty much don't count with many advertisers.

The prime example of this is a comparison between the geriatric-beloved Murder, She Wrote and the younger-skewing Friends. Their runs overlapped a couple of seasons and they had about the same number of viewers. But Friends was able to get three times the money for one of its commercials because of its younger audience.

Advertisers are convinced that older viewers are set in their ways and won't try their new product. Younger viewers, they believe, are more malleable and open to the advertising.

Long, ulcer-churning boardroom discussions take place about that but, right or wrong, the networks brag about scoring in the 18-49 demographic. If your favorite series doesn't do well enough in this demographic, it could be the first nail in the cancellation coffin.

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/...s-wr-20090423/
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Old 10-19-2021, 04:28 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
Anyone who says that is a moron who's never talked to anyone in charge of a network in their life. There's a competitor that theoretically might replace Nielsen at some point because they theoretically might get more accurate ratings measurements, but Nielsen is actually also looking to purchase them.

I've explained this countless times, and your only response has been nonsensical bullshit that you're making up. I literally negotiate these kinds deals for a living for advertisers, and I regularly see the actual numbers and talk with TV execs when I'm negotiating deals with broadcasters for clients, whether I'm representing advertisers or TV production companies.

Especially when you're talking about cable, the 18-49 demo rating is the primary factor advertisers use to determine how much they're willing to pay to advertise during a certain time slot and network. Having high 18-49 viewership can be the difference between an advertiser paying $100k v. $200k or more for a 30 second spot.

The reason for that is multiple, but ultimately it comes down to $ and statistics. A 20-40 year old will typically have more (or at least be more likely to spend much more of their) disposable income on goods/services than someone who is 55+. Statistically, because people ages 55+ are both (1) retired or close to retirement, and (2) usually have adult children in the 18-49 age group who have their own purchasing power, most of them save or invest into their retirement instead of spending their excess disposable income, even though they might actually have more.

Those spending stats are still holding true and have been for decades now. I don't know anyone who actually works in the industry and knows what the hell they're talking about who would say that people under 60 are now spending more disposable income than people ages 18-45. You might have outliers in the occasional quarter as has historically always occured, but t's not happening on anything remotely close to a widespread scale consistently or across the board.
This is an appeal to authority by someone with no authority. You’ve been clowned on here constantly before. No, you never explain it, let alone countless times. You also run off after calling someone a cocksucker because your knowledge comes from Google. You are not a real lawyer.

If you were, you’d be able to talk with better constructed arguments that aren’t giant shifts of the goalposts and straw-man arguments. You wouldn’t last a minute in law with that sort of unreasonable attitude towards any sort of case. You’d also know “I actually do this” isn’t evidence, nor does it make your claims actually credible.

No one has said over 60’s regularly and routinely spend more income disposably. You’ve actually just made that up to try and have a more coherent and common sensical sounding argument to try and dismiss someone questioning the success of your silly little wrestling promotion.

If 18-49 was the primary factor in deciding advertising revenue, then why has wrestling been historically bad at getting it? Why did Dynamite get bumped off TNT for NHL for hockey, which gets both lower demos and viewership? This ain’t bullshit, son — it’s actual shit happening.

18-49 has been an important gauge, which you actually admit “hypothetically” could be way more specific, but let’s not go into that. But culture and society has changed. Other factors are always going to take precedence, such as the perception of the entity looking to advertise in the advertising world. Doesn’t matter if you get a high demo if you can’t sell ads. People need to want to advertise with you, and the 18-49 demo is NOT always the key to that. You would be blasting Vince if he was ahead in that and Tony was ahead in other areas, and your disingenuous ass knows it.

Never any sources provided. You once asserted that a 0.01 increase in the demo would “exponentially” affect how much ads could be sold by. You’ve dialled that back down to $100k to $200k more. Give me a sec and I can find where you found that 2009 article on Google.

You do this very curious thing where you are so scared of being found out you make such general points that they actually agree with the person you are trying to argue against. Purchasing power has become diversified. Ethnic groups, women, even children take more autonomous approaches to how they spend and invest. You address that Nielsen has been unable to keep up with that demand, then just wave it away with the entity itself looking to buy that information.

That’s like Vince McMahon soaking up indies, dude. It’s not the clever out you think it is.
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Old 10-19-2021, 04:31 PM   #186
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That’s TL. Sorry, BigCrippyZ doesn’t deserve that much time. The skinny is that purchasing power has diversified. Common sense could tell you that, but anyone with specialized knowledge should be honest about it. If the key demo was all that mattered, the WWE is sterling and AEW wouldn’t have been booted off for the hockey. Advertisers want content they feel comfortable advertising on. Demos CAN help with that, but so does their own preferences and consumer data.
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Old 10-19-2021, 04:41 PM   #187
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Sources? I am the fucking source you dumb fuck. What would you like me to do, violate my ethical obligations to my clients and share the negotiation communications, drafts, final agreements and confidential info/data and often trade secrets? Yeah, I’m not going to do that because I’m not a moron or a piece of shit.
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Old 10-19-2021, 04:47 PM   #188
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Some are estimating about 300k for the MyTV viewers were FS1 is blacked out in Chicago and New York. This puts them well over a million against Rampage’s 600k. In their usual time slot. On a way more accessible network.

This is as Tony Khan types things like this: “LET’S GO @AEW FANS, WRESTLERS, STAFF! EVERYONE, LFG #AEW!!!!” because of an alleged 328k-285k lead (if that’s even reliably measured) in an archaic and gentrified demo measurement leaving out NEW YORK and CHICAGO!

These fucking idiots, lol.
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Old 10-19-2021, 04:53 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
Sources? I am the fucking source you dumb fuck. What would you like me to do, violate my ethical obligations to my clients and share the negotiation communications, drafts, final agreements and confidential info/data and often trade secrets? Yeah, I’m not going to do that because I’m not a moron or a piece of shit.
No one reputable says “I am the source.” You’re leaning of expertise that you actually don’t have. A scientist doesn’t say “I am a scientist, soooo just take my word for it.”

No one’s asking for confidential information, you muppet. I’m asking for a source. You know, peer-reviewed, use for educating people with such high expertise. You’ve threatened to throw them around before if a tiff but are now hiding behind ethics?

Yeah, big no on that, rubber ducky. You’re full of BigCrappyShit.
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Old 10-19-2021, 04:56 PM   #190
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By the way, you are absolutely a piece of shit. You go after people with insults because they can reasonably see past what you can. Just a general reminder this piece of shit called me a cocksucker because I didn’t think WWE were rushing out the gate to destroy AEW from the start.

He is a fanboy who will misrepresent himself on the internet with Google-level information to validate himself and the content he stooges for. Never take someone’s word that you can just take their word for it. Especially if they claim to be a lawyer on the internet.
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Old 10-19-2021, 05:02 PM   #191
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I would guess AEW got bumped for the NHL because that was the only way TNT could secure the deal. TNT is also bumping the NHL to 10pm games at times for Dynamite, pretty wild. Shows how valuable AEW is to TNT. The NHL is very valuable as well, they can do both.

The NHL is growing in the US. I think TNT saw that and made some compromises. AEW is too and at times the NHL will compromise as well. They already have.
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Old 10-19-2021, 05:03 PM   #192
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TNT = Turner
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Old 10-19-2021, 05:08 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by weather vane View Post
I would guess AEW got bumped for the NHL because that was the only way TNT could secure the deal. TNT is also bumping the NHL to 10pm games at times for Dynamite, pretty wild. Shows how valuable AEW is to TNT. The NHL is very valuable as well, they can do both.

The NHL is growing in the US. I think TNT saw that and made some compromises. AEW is too and at times the NHL will compromise as well. They already have.
I was unaware of that. Is that for scheduling reasons to help the hockey though? I know Dynamite is getting hit in the next couple of weeks by going earlier on the West Coast so NHL can go live. The rights fees also give away what each has perceived worth to be. And there are plenty of reasons the NHL is worth that. There’s a reason sweaty wrestling women hate is not.

At the end of the day, even with key demos being a 1:1, which they’re not (which even BigCrippy would have to admit, which is the issue he’s constantly avoiding), AEW would still need to double WWE to be as profitable to TNT with their revenue split. So not sure why all this celebrating until AEW actually makes WarnerMedia as much as WWE generates for NBC Universal/FOX. It’s bullshit posturing.
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Old 10-19-2021, 05:09 PM   #194
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TNT = Turner
Yeah, I gotcha. I did the same thing anyway, haha.
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Old 10-19-2021, 05:13 PM   #195
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I think it’s just people being excited, maybe overly, that the company they like is doing well? That WWE killed something for them over the years and they are excited to get it back? That the ratings thing harkens back to when wrestling was must watch (Monday Night Wars)?

I know it’s not that simple to some, but it is for me.
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Old 10-19-2021, 05:21 PM   #196
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My source for that NHL tidbit is Spittin’ Chiclets, a hockey podcast I listen to. One of the guys is on the TNT panel. He said they are getting bumped to the 1000/1030 games for AEW at times.
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Old 10-19-2021, 05:31 PM   #197
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Shocker, the moron who thinks he knows way more than he does because he knows just a little, doesn't know a key detail necessary to analyze something he's already proceeded to analyze. JFC, a perfect example of Dunning-Kruger.
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Old 10-19-2021, 05:37 PM   #198
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to the idea of *if* 18-49 matters it matters chiefly because the guys paying the bills value it. their position on the topic functions as a fiat currency. same with neilson as a whole. its doesnt represent what the market actually values (noted by the continuous diminished returns from the ad spots from even as recent as 10 years ago.)

to advertisers the metric is clearly paramount because they just dont have an alternative; and thats reflected in NBC walking from neilson only to be followed by neilson rapidly dropping their going rates (if the neilson data was truly valuable the market would have reflected that.) if that moment nielson acknowledged through action that the networks are more valuable to nielson than neilson is to the networks.

neilson is no longer an accurate descriptor of viewer habits. its junk data. you dont learn factual information from neilson data. its not even remotely a scientific analysis. it remains however the industry standard and will continue to dictate market responses in spite of it being total rubbish.

at this time with the near total shift of how households consume media we have virtually no clue who is watching what and its in that end that ratings are completely stupid to discuss. when we 1.1 million watched X understand that its barely more than a guess at this point. the neilson method no longer works. we are free from conventional shackles of the television standard and a ratings system that adhears to it is ludicrous.

what we cant do is discredit entirely that these networks are valuing the data and that it will impact contracts in the future

HOWEVER

this future is likely to be short lived. last month neilson lost its accreditation Due to how inacurate it is and is only being able to used on a case by case basis (something im shocked crippy didnt bring up) AND nbc is organizing a coalition to create a modern (and accurate) system that if successful will completely usurp neilson by giving actual honest data.
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Old 10-19-2021, 05:43 PM   #199
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tl;dr neilson is fuckin stupid yall
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Old 10-19-2021, 05:54 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect View Post
Yeah, and that’s reasonable. But is it true of 47 year olds already converted to wrestling versus...55 year olds converted to wrestling? That sounds like a general statement talking about the long-term potential of getting people young, but that could be even truer about younger demos and still speaks to the importance of people as they age out of the 18-49 if they goal is to milk them for life.

There was also a discussion there about whether young people are still the ones that spend the most money and whether or not culture has changed.
WWF used to CRUSH that demo 20-25 years ago, and they only had ads for motor oil, Skittles and JVC Ka Boom boxes. The demos are what they are, but at the end of the day it's wrestling. People still think the wrestling fans are pimplely faced hicks.
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