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Old 04-16-2018, 04:04 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
You say that with such assuredness. But many would have argued Steve Austin didn't have the charisma up until the point that he did. You've been conditioned to believe "top guy needs to tick these boxes" but you've never seen anyone given a chance beyond Vince's usual template... other than Steve Austin, really. If they don't tick Vince's boxes, they get a sniff at the top spot, but the second things don't go EXACTLY RIGHT, they're considered flops at the box office. Never mind Roman, Cena, and HHH's constant chances.
Austin had loads of charisma before he became the guy. Anyone who argued otherwise would have just been wrong. Maybe he didn't show it off to that extent but he always showed it. You can't really compare him to Styles. Austin got a chance to "be himself" and took shit to another level. Styles hasn't been pigeonholed by a gimmick or anything. For all intents and purposes, he has just been himself for most of his career.

And it's not conditioning. A successful face of the company absolutely needs to tick those boxes to some extent. No one is gonna draw new fans in in droves or keep the casual fans coming back because "workrate" and that's really all Styles has going for him. All it's good for is appealing to hardcore wrestling fans who are gonna watch whether he's main eventing or jerking the curtain.
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Old 04-16-2018, 05:14 PM   #42
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Styles isn't exactly Chris Benoit. He cuts a good promo and is marketable. And Austin as Stunning Steve showed some charisma, but had his legs cut out from under him after drawing one bad number. As Ring Master, he showed pretty much nothing. Even as Stone Cold, he certainly didn't tick the Hogan boxes. He literally forged his own path to the top.

Again, we'll never know til someone like him is ACTUALLY given the ball to run with. But AJ with the "machine" behind him would probably do better than Roman.
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Old 04-16-2018, 05:18 PM   #43
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In fact, isn't AJ neck-in-neck with Roman in merch sales, and he's not presented as "the guy"?
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:06 PM   #44
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AJ Styles has plenty of charisma. He's always been able to draw people in to what he does. I mean, he's won over Vince McMahon, who would have been one of the harshest critics. That's something that, say, Cesaro hasn't been able to do. I think saying that ring work is all he's got is reductionist for the point of argument.
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:22 PM   #45
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AJ hasn't always been able to "draw people in". He was the face of TNA for quite a while. Not like the ratings skyrocketed during that time. I by "draw people in" you mean get a reaction from the hardcores with his matches then we're just not talking about the same thing.

Also as far as the reductionist statement, I was actually just going to respond to Dale's comment about his mic skills by stating how it's common for fans of the typical IWC favorites to somehow find skills outside the ring that aren't there. It happened with Benoit who people liked to try to define some special form of charisma into existence so that they could tick that box for him. It happened with Bryan who got passable but people started swearing got WAY better on the mic than he actually did. It's happening with Styles now. He's not charismatic. He's awkward and not believable on the mic and you can tell he's trying way too hard. If you're watching wrestling with a non-fan, he's not a guy you want cutting a promo. It's embarrassing. Having him do the talk show circuits and represent the company to the mainstream would be a disaster. He has nothing redeeming to anyone other than a hardcore.
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:26 PM   #46
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They started jobbing AJ out left right and centre to old WWE stars before he could draw anyone. You're cherrypicking guys who got no chance to draw. Also, he's good on the mic... not great. But he's better than fucking Roman Reigns.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:19 PM   #47
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Benoit had charisma and AJ is literally one of the best talkers they've got. That might be sad, but it's true.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:22 PM   #48
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Like, I hate the style most of the indy darlings work today. I'm not just looking to love AJ Styles, believe me. Especially given his homophobic comments outside wrestling. But he's so fucking good. Bryan did get more comfortable on the mic, and his charisma fuels his segments. He can talk fairly "normally" and people get into it. That's the point of a promo. Not to do all these weird catchphrases and bullshit to disguise the fact no one really cares about what you're doing.

I dunno, #fan, I'm normally with you, but AJ is pretty fantastic as an all-round talent. I think he would have done fine even in previous years with actual stars hovering around, because he's got that x-factor.
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Old 04-17-2018, 09:46 AM   #49
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I would say his only issue was being far too babyfaced ( not a good guy, just had the face of a baby) and those fucking highlights in his hair lol.

That, and jobbing to literally every single person of all time probably didn't help.

On another slightly different note... I find it so strange that Vince went with Austin--the reason he won the fucking war. And "real" character, who honestly went against the grain, but since then has gone back to trying to find the next Hulk Hogan. Don't get me wrong, I'm not for him finding the next Steve Austin, but he was so fucking different from the rest of Vince's "guys". From there, it's gone to Cena then Reigns, who've been booked as vanilla as they come. It just makes no sense to me. Where's the creativity?
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:50 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Benoit had charisma and AJ is literally one of the best talkers they've got. That might be sad, but it's true.
If that were true, it would definitely be REALLY sad. I agree.
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:52 AM   #51
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There aren't many great talkers on the roster.
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:54 AM   #52
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Quote:
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I dunno, #fan, I'm normally with you, but AJ is pretty fantastic as an all-round talent. I think he would have done fine even in previous years with actual stars hovering around, because he's got that x-factor.
He would have done fine in the same way any good midcard workhorse IC title guy has done. Putting on great matches that are promoted in small print below the legit stars who run the show ala Benoit. It's what his role should be.
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:57 AM   #53
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Quote:
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There aren't many great talkers on the roster.
Compared to AJ Styles though...
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Old 04-17-2018, 11:00 AM   #54
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He's better than a lot of them.

I mean look Fan, you may not like his talking, but the crowds in the building react. You aren't right about everything, believe it or not (most things though you're pretty close on)
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Old 04-17-2018, 11:02 AM   #55
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Crowds in the building usually react to Nakamura and Asuka and they can barely speak English.
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Old 04-17-2018, 11:06 AM   #56
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IMO you probably want to have positive reactions throughout the show.


Maybe at first you'd see a dip in the numbers. But if the shows are a blast with interactive crowds, people eventually will actually want to check it out. Particularly if you market it as such. It's kinda what happened in the attitiude era. The shows were interactive and the t.v. audience felt like they were part of the party.

Instead of people shitting on your top stars constantly.


I'm not saying AJ Styles woulda been the tops during the Attitude era, especially at his size. But in today's climate, you'd have better luck hitching to his wagon than you would Reigns'.
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Old 04-17-2018, 01:30 PM   #57
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Compared to AJ Styles though...
Honestly, who is leaps and bounds better?
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Old 04-17-2018, 01:36 PM   #58
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Quote:
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I would say his only issue was being far too babyfaced ( not a good guy, just had the face of a baby) and those fucking highlights in his hair lol.

That, and jobbing to literally every single person of all time probably didn't help.

On another slightly different note... I find it so strange that Vince went with Austin--the reason he won the fucking war. And "real" character, who honestly went against the grain, but since then has gone back to trying to find the next Hulk Hogan. Don't get me wrong, I'm not for him finding the next Steve Austin, but he was so fucking different from the rest of Vince's "guys". From there, it's gone to Cena then Reigns, who've been booked as vanilla as they come. It just makes no sense to me. Where's the creativity?
This is something I often find myself thinking about. It is really weird that Vince went with a guy like Austin, who is so atypical for Vince, beyond the fact that when you think of Vince and the Attitude era, you actually think of Austin.

He's the only babyface Vince has only really ever tried to push without the smiley idiot stuff. The Rock also got away in the era, but was still initially pushed with that shtick, and always had the "gloss" that Vince likes. But it's really odd to think of such a...wrestler like Austin being so integral to the company.

When Vince has his back against the wall and he has to respond to fans, he honestly does his best work. But deep down, you know he probably somewhat hated it. And you hear about those tensions between Austin and Vince, and Vince trying to slip Rock into promotional and movie stuff ahead of Austin in the late 90's. Vince "had" to go with Austin, because otherwise people would be watching WCW.

My point: Maybe Vince should just shut the fuck up and listen to what he's got left of a fan-base and switch Roman heel and push the guy capturing hearts and minds and just see how far that can take him? Maybe they don't need to fit his exact view of an action hero come to life.
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Old 04-17-2018, 01:42 PM   #59
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In the Attitude era, Styles would have done enough breathtaking stuff to be featured in plenty of highlight reels and that sort of shit. He may not have been WWE Champion for 200 days, but he'd have had plenty of merch, been popular and therefore gotten focus. Think along the lines of Rey Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, Rob Van Dam, and, at times, X-Pac. He'd have gotten the occasional important spot, sold his ass off for the heel kicking his ass, gotten cheers and people would have taken notes of his talent, which has always been there if not always as "matured" as it is today. In WCW, he would have been given the Cruiserweight Title and would have been talked about as one of the most exciting guys they have, and in the WWF probably would have sniffed a surprisingly important supporting spot as an MVP delivering stellar matches outside the Austin ass kickings. He wouldn't have been swept under the rug. People were going nuts for him in 2002, before Austin had even retired.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:12 PM   #60
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Quote:
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Honestly, who is leaps and bounds better?
Cena. Miz. Wyatt. Orton. Ziggler. Basically anyone who can cut a believable promo and not sound like an awkward indy geek trying too hard to cut a generic wrestling promo automatically wins. There's also a ton of lower card guys who just don't get a chance to cut serious promos like Fandango who have shown the ability to work the mic like a pro if given the chance.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:15 PM   #61
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Ziggler should not be on that list
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:17 PM   #62
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In the Attitude era, Styles would have done enough breathtaking stuff to be featured in plenty of highlight reels and that sort of shit. He may not have been WWE Champion for 200 days, but he'd have had plenty of merch, been popular and therefore gotten focus. Think along the lines of Rey Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, Rob Van Dam, and, at times, X-Pac. He'd have gotten the occasional important spot, sold his ass off for the heel kicking his ass, gotten cheers and people would have taken notes of his talent, which has always been there if not always as "matured" as it is today. In WCW, he would have been given the Cruiserweight Title and would have been talked about as one of the most exciting guys they have, and in the WWF probably would have sniffed a surprisingly important supporting spot as an MVP delivering stellar matches outside the Austin ass kickings. He wouldn't have been swept under the rug. People were going nuts for him in 2002, before Austin had even retired.
Yes. I agree. He would have been Mysterio, Hardy, RVD, X-Pac. Valuable upper carder putting on good wrestling matches but not being pushed as the face of the company. That's where he belongs. You're making my point. I never said he's useless.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:17 PM   #63
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Ziggler should not be on that list
He's better than Styles. We can debate "leaps and bounds" better I guess but... he's definitely better.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:23 PM   #64
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Cena. Miz. Wyatt. Orton. Ziggler. Basically anyone who can cut a believable promo and not sound like an awkward indy geek trying too hard to cut a generic wrestling promo automatically wins. There's also a ton of lower card guys who just don't get a chance to cut serious promos like Fandango who have shown the ability to work the mic like a pro if given the chance.
Here are the caveats with some of those guys:

* John Cena I'll 100% give you.

* The Miz can't wrestle to back it up.

* Wyatt's gimmick sucks and his promos haven't meant anything on the variety show without some point and credibility. People zone out and that's why he's stuck in a tag team with Matt Hardy and being auxiliary on pre-shows.

* Ziggler looked to be getting better, but then he came back down to "I'm trying...to have...a good...promo" mode.

* Orton is someone I love more and more, and I do love his "I don't give a fuck" style, but AJ has a similar thing.

It's really a wash for me. I think Joe is better on the mic, but Styles filters his charisma through his ring work just as well, so I actually find Styles that tiny bit more interesting (although I do love Joe). Heyman is obviously a master on the mic, but he's not a wrestler, so comparing their ring skills doesn't work out.

I dunno, man -- I think you're just really hard on AJ Styles.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:23 PM   #65
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I don't remember a single Orton promo.

Don't remember a single AJ promo either though.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:26 PM   #66
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Yes. I agree. He would have been Mysterio, Hardy, RVD, X-Pac. Valuable upper carder putting on good wrestling matches but not being pushed as the face of the company. That's where he belongs. You're making my point. I never said he's useless.
That's in the Attitude era. A lot of people would suggest that RVD should have been given a bigger push during the period, and Jeff Hardy would turn out to be the biggest draw they had in 2009. In a contemporary setting, those are the types of talent that are causing the buzz. You don't have an Austin or a Rock to supersede your star through performance.

It certainly wasn't Jinder. And crowds felt ready to take AJ Styles over Cena when they put him over. It didn't feel out of place. They chose Styles over Ambrose (quite decisively). The Wyatt/Orton/Jinder fiasco killed all interest in the WWE Title until Styles restored it somewhat. He's a lot more interesting and exciting than pretty much anyone else on the roster -- more "eloquent" or not. When he talks, I'm listening to him because I want to, whereas I don't give a flying fuck about Ziggler or Wyatt. That's partly charisma.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:27 PM   #67
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Forgot about Kevin Owens. Miles better.

In fact, while I wouldn't have said this before, but from what I've seen of him recently, Sami Zayn has come off much better on the mic.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:29 PM   #68
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I don't remember a single Orton promo.

Don't remember a single AJ promo either though.
I remember AJ Styles' work against John Cena. That's more than I can say for most people.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:33 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Forgot about Kevin Owens. Miles better.

In fact, while I wouldn't have said this before, but from what I've seen of him recently, Sami Zayn has come off much better on the mic.
Owens is good at times, but tries to come off too clever for my liking. But yes, he can talk. I think his ring work is overrated though, and he needs a charisma transplant. Sami Zayn is great on the mic. Again, not the total package that AJ Styles is.

If we're just talking mic skills, and looking at them in isolation, I'll give you Cena, Joe, Owens, Zayn, Heyman and, fuck it, Orton. That's 5 guys. Cena is part-time. Orton has been played out in the role. Heyman doesn't wrestle. Neither Owens nor Zayn is the total package AJ is. Joe's great, but I'd rather build around AJ at this point in time. Joe is someone you can promote; AJ is someone you can market.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:41 PM   #70
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AJ is the perfect intersection of ring skill, mic skills, popularity, charisma, experience, credibility, aesthetic, marketability and, seemingly, attitude. He may not be the best in any one area (although I don't know if you will find someone better in the ring), but the way they all scaffold each other and negate any perceived weaknesses he might have is a perfect fit for WWE. Right now, anyway.

I'm very pro-Styles, and I'm not very pro many other people, because no one comes off like a star. He pulls that off. Even when they find that "guy," he'll still be buzzing around making them look good and getting everyone to pay attention. An amazing talent. He has fit the WWE and the WWE has, somewhat surprisingly, fit him. It's a perfect arrangement at the moment. They should follow it through to its logical conclusion, whatever that may be. He's the least offensive new WWE Champion since Bryan, which takes us back 5 years now. If they just change their focus a little bit, they might be able to milk even more out of him.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:43 PM   #71
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Quote:
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Here are the caveats with some of those guys:

* John Cena I'll 100% give you.

* The Miz can't wrestle to back it up.

* Wyatt's gimmick sucks and his promos haven't meant anything on the variety show without some point and credibility. People zone out and that's why he's stuck in a tag team with Matt Hardy and being auxiliary on pre-shows.

* Ziggler looked to be getting better, but then he came back down to "I'm trying...to have...a good...promo" mode.

* Orton is someone I love more and more, and I do love his "I don't give a fuck" style, but AJ has a similar thing.
You asked who was a better promo. Miz is a better promo. What does his wrestling ability have to do with anything?

And Wyatt's character becoming shit because of creative also doesn't have anything to do with his promo ability. His promos became directionless on the main brand because his character became directionless. Given equal footing when you've gotta sell a program, Wyatt is a MILLION times better on the mic than Styles. Wyatt sells the shit out of what he's saying. Styles does not.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:47 PM   #72
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I remember AJ Styles' work against John Cena. That's more than I can say for most people.
I remember that gif of him comically falling backwards against Gallows and Anderson trying to do the "heel trying to be funny while making fun of the face" thing and even in .gif form, the awkward tryhard-ness just oozed out of it.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:51 PM   #73
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If we're just talking mic skills, and looking at them in isolation, I'll give you Cena, Joe, Owens, Zayn, Heyman and, fuck it, Orton. That's 5 guys. Cena is part-time. Orton has been played out in the role. Heyman doesn't wrestle. Neither Owens nor Zayn is the total package AJ is. Joe's great, but I'd rather build around AJ at this point in time. Joe is someone you can promote; AJ is someone you can market.
If we're talking isolated mic skills and you can't at least bring yourself to give The Miz the nod over him then I definitely think you've got a bias. I'm pretty sure 95% of the AJ Styles marks here wouldn't even go so far as to give him the nod on promo ability over The Miz. They're night and day.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:55 PM   #74
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The content of Wyatt's promos isn't always great, but his execution and delivery is miles above most of the roster. He completely transforms himself into the character, right down to the smallest mannerisms.

Styles, at this point in his career is solid on the mic. Sometimes he still sounds a little awkward though.

Just makes me more upset at how irrelevant they made Bray.
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Old 04-17-2018, 08:01 PM   #75
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Being comfortable and convincing on the mic is the first thing you need. Wyatt's character has been butchered by creative. Styles' has at times, too. Most of the roster has. But even as a totally out there and unbelievable character, it's ridiculous how well Wyatt sells that character even when his booking does everything imaginable to rob his credibility. He's golden on the mic. He'd be a legend in another era.
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Old 04-17-2018, 09:33 PM   #76
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Seriously. New Face of Fear.

Who the fuck is going to be afraid of a guy who loses every match, even when he has backup from monsters like Harper and Rowan? Doesn't help that pretty much every one on the roster no sold Wyatt's creepy stuff except for Cena and the New Day.

So strong going into WM 30. All downhill from there.
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Old 04-17-2018, 09:54 PM   #77
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You asked who was a better promo. Miz is a better promo. What does his wrestling ability have to do with anything?

And Wyatt's character becoming shit because of creative also doesn't have anything to do with his promo ability. His promos became directionless on the main brand because his character became directionless. Given equal footing when you've gotta sell a program, Wyatt is a MILLION times better on the mic than Styles. Wyatt sells the shit out of what he's saying. Styles does not.
Because when you're cutting a promo, you're selling something. The Miz is overrated because he's got nothing to sell. Bray Wyatt and The Miz can talk, but they aren't selling anything.
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Old 04-17-2018, 09:58 PM   #78
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If we're talking isolated mic skills and you can't at least bring yourself to give The Miz the nod over him then I definitely think you've got a bias. I'm pretty sure 95% of the AJ Styles marks here wouldn't even go so far as to give him the nod on promo ability over The Miz. They're night and day.
The Miz can talk better than AJ Styles, but it doesn't mean anything because I'd prefer to watch AJ Styles perform over The Miz ten times out of ten. I'm not talking isolated mic skills -- I'm talking mic skills for a top guy. If The Miz cut a promo and then AJ said "Miz, I'm going to kick your Hollywood ass," Styles' lines would be more effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Being comfortable and convincing on the mic is the first thing you need. Wyatt's character has been butchered by creative. Styles' has at times, too. Most of the roster has. But even as a totally out there and unbelievable character, it's ridiculous how well Wyatt sells that character even when his booking does everything imaginable to rob his credibility. He's golden on the mic. He'd be a legend in another era.
Styles has been fucked around (didn't he lose to James Ellsworth like three weeks in a row?), but the reason he survives it is because of his charisma, lol. He's bulletproof, basically, because it shines through how good he is and people don't lose faith in him like they have the dudes you're accurately pointing out have been booked into oblivion.
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Old 04-17-2018, 09:58 PM   #79
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Give Styles a year and a half on top with proper push and presentation and if he failsI will bow down. Until then it is pure speculation.


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Old 04-17-2018, 10:01 PM   #80
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01/05/08
 
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Noid makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Noid makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Noid makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Noid makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Noid makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Noid makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Noid makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Noid makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Noid makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Noid makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Noid makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Noid makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Noid makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
The thing is he kind of helps him own presentation, because he knows how to carry himself as a star, because he knows he's the best in-ring performer in the world.
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