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Old 01-31-2014, 11:59 PM   #361
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Yea because losing dirty is still losing. You are still "outsmarted" and don't get the job done. You'd rather lose clean in an incredibly hard fought match where both guys come off strong.
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:10 AM   #362
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And now Ryback is getting planchas from El Torito
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Old 02-01-2014, 02:05 AM   #363
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If Ryback is as unsafe in the ring as the reports say, then he doesn't deserve a top spot.

But who knows, cause it's the dirt sheets.
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Old 02-01-2014, 02:53 AM   #364
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I actually thought the way Ryback lost at Hell in a Cell was fucking perfect. If they had Punk just cheat at then get the 3 count it would have still be awful because you would have taken away Ryback's aura of invincibility that got the crowd behind him in the first place. Instead they didn't even have him get pinned for a legit 3 count while also getting the over-done undefeated streak distraction out of the way. It was perfect.

The way they booked him AFTER that match was WWE retarded, clueless booking at it's absolute worst.
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Old 02-01-2014, 06:26 AM   #365
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If true, I don't think Punk magically decided Monday would be it. He's been more than vocal in the past about part time guys/retreads coming in and taking main event spots. We know having to see Rock main event 2 years in a row didn't make him happy, but it can be argued easily that Rock was a huge deal and was "best for business" as a draw. Batista is not, and never was. He was always second fiddle to Cena, and now he comes back, with one match, and gets auto penciled into the main event. I can completely understand how that would be the tipping point for Punk.

I also would understand that the idea of working with HHH is an underwhelming one. Outside of Mr. Steele, did anyone really enjoy his matches with Lesnar. The first two bored me to the point that I didn't bother with the third. His matches with Taker weren't anything special either, and are book ended by two classics with HBK and CM Punk. Not to mention, the last time I remember Punk and H having a match, during the summer of Punk, H won with a pedigree, 1-2-3, after a clusterfuck of run ins. Then ends the show crotch chopping the hottest name in the company to end the show.

So yeah, Punk having little to no interest in a match with H is not surprising at all. I get that walking out is unprofessional, and H having his ego stepped on a bit is only natural, but he, Vince and WWE need Punk a lot more than Punk needs them. Replacing his merch sales, the live crowds that cheer him, and his ability to put on matches with just about anyone is not going to be easy, and there's no one currently on the roster in position to take his spot.
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Old 02-01-2014, 10:48 AM   #366
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Pretty much. In the short term I can see it making sense because it's a clash of "legends" of sorts, but it's not like HHH or Brock needed 3 matches, maybe the one at summerslam where Brock went over, but three was overkill considering how limited Brock's appearances are. But his match with Punk naturally eclipses ANYTHING he did with HHH, as would his matches with any of the top of the new breed food chain. But HHH IS THIS BUSINESS and thus him having a series of matches with a hot commodity like Brock eclipses the importance of the future of the company's t.v. product and making new stars Right James?
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:31 AM   #367
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Lol remember when HHH hinted at retirement and cut that promo and literally nobody in the arena cared.
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:41 AM   #368
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oh man he really showed what a master psychologist and maestro he was of the audience in that exact moment
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:13 PM   #369
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He totally wanted the crowd to chant "you tapped out" during a retirement speech
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:17 PM   #370
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What are you clowns on about? I distinctly remember H manipulating the crowd into chanting "YOU TAPPED OUT". Guys are haters!
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:19 PM   #371
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My personal fave is when Randy Orton was the hottest heel in the company, and then HHH proceeded to "attack him" "at his home" and then beat him clean at wrestlemania, completely robbing him of any momentum. Remember all of that steam Orton picked up after that? Oh because I don't either.
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:46 PM   #372
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What about when he made Sheamus look so strong by beating him clean at Mania that Sheamus was too good and over to be on the card the following year?
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:50 PM   #373
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Or how about that time he returned from injury in 2001 and got one of the biggest pops ever. What a shit rassler hahaha
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:02 PM   #374
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when he was legitimately the best all-round professional wrestler on earth in late 1999 through early 2001. That was really bad for business
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:02 PM   #375
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Was it not the beginning of '02? And yeah I remember, he went onto have one of the flattest wrestlemania main event feuds with Chris Jericho, which Jericho took years to recover from, because Hunter blamed him for it, even though it was just awful booking and all it was, was Hunter vs Steph. And when he one the championship at mania, you could hear a pin drop.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:03 PM   #376
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that definitely had nothing to do at all with having to go on after maybe the loudest, most exhausting WrestleMania match ever for a crowd in Rock vs. Hogan
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:04 PM   #377
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when he was legitimately the best all-round professional wrestler on earth in late 1999 through early 2001. That was really bad for business
I would say beginning of 2000-mid 2001. That rumble match with Cactus was unfucking real. Also him and Rock had great chemistry. Can't forget the 3 stages of hell with Austin as well as him carrying Taker at Mania, because Taker was really hindered by injuries in those days.

He was never really the same after he came back from the quad injury, moments of greatness for sure, but just not that on fire monster he was in that BRIEF period.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:06 PM   #378
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that definitely had nothing to do at all with having to go on after maybe the loudest, most exhausting WrestleMania match ever for a crowd in Rock vs. Hogan
hahahahaha excuses excuses. The match blew, and the feud blew, or was Lucy the dog getting run over and under rated classic?
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:07 PM   #379
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Was it not the beginning of '02? And yeah I remember, he went onto have one of the flattest wrestlemania main event feuds with Chris Jericho, which Jericho took years to recover from, because Hunter blamed him for it, even though it was just awful booking and all it was, was Hunter vs Steph. And when he one the championship at mania, you could hear a pin drop.
I would argue that this was more the WWE's fault rather than Triple H's. This was TERRIBLE booking on the WWE's part.

The main-event of Wrestlemania that year should have been Triple H vs. Austin.....with Triple H going over. Either that, or you could have just had Rock/Hogan as your main-event, and make it a title match.

The WWE completely fucked over Jericho during his World title run. Even though he defeated Austin and Rocky on the same night, it was made to look like a complete fluke. All throughout Jericho's run, Jericho was made to look wildly inferior to his opponents while continuously getting "fluke" victories.

Jericho's lack of established credibility as a World Champ, thanks to woefully bad booking of his character, helped lead to a lackluster main-event. The WWE also changed Triple H's character way too much (as they have a tendency to do when they attempt to turn a successful heel into a successful face) and so Triple H's pops had been on decline since his January return.

Jericho never had his "Triple H over Foley" moment.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have kept Austin as a heel champ until Mania.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:08 PM   #380
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they could have brought out the ghosts of Andre the Giant and Owen Hart with 70,000 briefcases filled with cash for all attendees after that Hogan/Rock match and the crowd would have still been like "woooo"
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:12 PM   #381
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that is a load of horse shit.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:17 PM   #382
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My personal fave is when Randy Orton was the hottest heel in the company, and then HHH proceeded to "attack him" "at his home" and then beat him clean at wrestlemania, completely robbing him of any momentum. Remember all of that steam Orton picked up after that? Oh because I don't either.
Completely agree on this one.

Ironically enough, as much as people label Orton as "Triple H's boy", Triple H pretty much destroyed Orton's momentum BIG TIME on two separate occasions.

The first one was shortly after Summerslam in 2004. Although Orton was getting huge face pops, the WWE made the mistake of 'busting their nut' and turning him face way too soon.

If the WWE had Orton become the new heel leader of Evolution, with Hunter turning face, then Orton would've been way better off for it in the long run.

In fact - if HHH and Orton had completely switched spots/roles during that time (i.e. heel Orton having a run as champ, and then jobbing to Batista at Mania' in 2005), then Orton would have been a much bigger star than he ended up being.


The SECOND time Orton got fucked over by HHH, was when he lost clean to HHH at Wrestlemania that one year (2009?). Orton should have gone over as he was at the absolute peak of his heel-dom with Legacy.

Orton should have been booked to kick Stephanie in the head that one-time as well.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:17 PM   #383
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well yeah, bringing out ghosts at a wrestling show is a ridiculous comparison. But Hogan/Rock would still have outpopped them
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:18 PM   #384
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"the dead guys going over? That doesn't work for me brother"
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:20 PM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
they could have brought out the ghosts of Andre the Giant and Owen Hart with 70,000 briefcases filled with cash for all attendees after that Hogan/Rock match and the crowd would have still been like "woooo"
Definitely a possibility, but I also think Austin was too big a star at the time for the crowd to go completely dead.

Had the WWE kept Austin's heel character from his Alliance days after Survivor Series 2001 leading to Mania, I think we would have seen a very interested Austin-HHH Wrestlemania main-event.

WWE fucked over Austin's character after Survivor Series 2001 as well. Just shockingly terrible booking on their part.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:22 PM   #386
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that is a load of horse shit.
No it's not.

I was there. If anything CSL is underscoring it. Completely indescribable. There were people crying around me.

I've gone back and watched the Triple H vs Jericho match, and it's a pretty good match. Just, nobody had any energy left to care after Rock/Hogan.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:22 PM   #387
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well yeah, bringing out ghosts at a wrestling show is a ridiculous comparison. But Hogan/Rock would still have outpopped them
Agreed, but it's not like Triple H/Austin would have been pin-drop silence like Triple H/Jericho was.

HHH-Austin would have had tons of excitement as well.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:25 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by He-Man View Post
Definitely a possibility, but I also think Austin was too big a star at the time for the crowd to go completely dead.

Had the WWE kept Austin's heel character from his Alliance days after Survivor Series 2001 leading to Mania, I think we would have seen a very interested Austin-HHH Wrestlemania main-event.

WWE fucked over Austin's character after Survivor Series 2001 as well. Just shockingly terrible booking on their part.
Problem with that is no one wanted to boo Austin. After all the heel shit Austin pulled, the Raw after Survivor Series, he came out to confront McMahon and Angle, and the place popped huge for him. He didn't even have to do anything and he was already a huge face again, because no one bought him as a heel in the first place.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:31 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
Problem with that is no one wanted to boo Austin. After all the heel shit Austin pulled, the Raw after Survivor Series, he came out to confront McMahon and Angle, and the place popped huge for him. He didn't even have to do anything and he was already a huge face again, because no one bought him as a heel in the first place.
They could have done a double-turn at Mania then.

Besides - it's not like fans haven't cheered 'cool heels' before (i.e. Rocky during the Corporation days).

Austin was still popular during his heel days, but fans gave appropriate reactions. Angle got a huge pop when he made Austin tap at No Mercy 2001. The Rock, Jericho, Benoit, Undertaker, RVD, and Tazz, all good tremendous pops whenever they had their matches and/or confrontations with Austin.

I disagree with the statement that 'no one bought Austin as a heel in the first place.' Austin wasn't hated, but fans were giving massive support towards all/most opponents that Austin faced that year.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:39 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
No it's not.

I was there. If anything CSL is underscoring it. Completely indescribable. There were people crying around me.

I've gone back and watched the Triple H vs Jericho match, and it's a pretty good match. Just, nobody had any energy left to care after Rock/Hogan.
It wasn't a bad match, I watched the ppv. But it was paint by the numbers and predictable.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:45 PM   #391
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there are times when wrestling is going to be predictable, everybody knew Hogan was gonna beat Andre, HBK was gonna beat Bret, Austin was gonna beat HBK, Austin was gonna beat Rock, Batista was gonna beat Triple H, Taker was gonna beat anybody at Mania etc etc. It's not always a bad thing. Had Triple H/Jericho gone on before Hogan/Rock, it would have been a perfectly acceptable Mania title match. They just shit out in terms of the order of the show, that Mania mantra of "the belt must go on last". Which is an understandable line of thinking. But they learned their lesson.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:46 PM   #392
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Aka not something you want out of your mania main event. People would have been into it if it was excellent, and it just wasn't. It was a flat match, to end a flat feud. And yes, hindered by the fact that it had to follow Rock and Hogan, but the true greats find a way to make it work, and Hunter just didn't. (Neither did Jericho either, but we're not talking about him right now).
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:48 PM   #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
there are times when wrestling is going to be predictable, everybody knew Hogan was gonna beat Andre, HBK was gonna beat Bret, Austin was gonna beat HBK, Austin was gonna beat Rock, Batista was gonna beat Triple H, Taker was gonna beat anybody at Mania etc etc. It's not always a bad thing. Had Triple H/Jericho gone on before Hogan/Rock, it would have been a perfectly acceptable Mania title match. They just shit out in terms of the order of the show, that Mania mantra of "the belt must go on last". Which is an understandable line of thinking. But they learned their lesson.
There was no spectacle in Jericho vs HHH though. It was a flat match with barely any real build, and they spent most of the time making Jericho look like a total nincompoop. All those matches you brought up, there was an intangible which made them special, or larger than life. HHH vs. Jericho was just a match that happened to be for the title, where HHH's dog got run over.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:55 PM   #394
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the build absolutely wasn't what it could have been but even with Jericho looking like a huge threat going in, there still wouldn't have been a doubt as to who was going over. If they went on before, the crowd would have booed when they were supposed to, cheered when they were supposed to, cheered for Pedigree and they both go back and hug and nobody blinks an eye. As it was it was like "we're getting something we've seen before after one of the greatest things ever".

As for "true greats find a way to make it work", nobody in the history of wrestling could have done anything with that crowd after Hogan/Rock. Maybe Austin at the peak of his popularity could have gotten a bit out of them but he's an exceptional circumstance rivaled only by one of the guys already in the previous match. Hogan vs. Rock is the most "unfollowable" match in the history of the business.
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Old 02-01-2014, 02:54 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by He-Man View Post
I would argue that this was more the WWE's fault rather than Triple H's. This was TERRIBLE booking on the WWE's part.

The main-event of Wrestlemania that year should have been Triple H vs. Austin.....with Triple H going over. Either that, or you could have just had Rock/Hogan as your main-event, and make it a title match.

The WWE completely fucked over Jericho during his World title run. Even though he defeated Austin and Rocky on the same night, it was made to look like a complete fluke. All throughout Jericho's run, Jericho was made to look wildly inferior to his opponents while continuously getting "fluke" victories.

Jericho's lack of established credibility as a World Champ, thanks to woefully bad booking of his character, helped lead to a lackluster main-event. The WWE also changed Triple H's character way too much (as they have a tendency to do when they attempt to turn a successful heel into a successful face) and so Triple H's pops had been on decline since his January return.

Jericho never had his "Triple H over Foley" moment.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have kept Austin as a heel champ until Mania.
I went to WMX8 and I agree with this I hated thinking the main event was going to be Y2J vs HHH, although instead of Austin taking Y2Js spot I would have had Kurt take it.
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Old 02-01-2014, 02:57 PM   #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
the build absolutely wasn't what it could have been but even with Jericho looking like a huge threat going in, there still wouldn't have been a doubt as to who was going over. If they went on before, the crowd would have booed when they were supposed to, cheered when they were supposed to, cheered for Pedigree and they both go back and hug and nobody blinks an eye. As it was it was like "we're getting something we've seen before after one of the greatest things ever".

As for "true greats find a way to make it work", nobody in the history of wrestling could have done anything with that crowd after Hogan/Rock. Maybe Austin at the peak of his popularity could have gotten a bit out of them but he's an exceptional circumstance rivaled only by one of the guys already in the previous match. Hogan vs. Rock is the most "unfollowable" match in the history of the business.
Austin vs Nash would have been good but would have completely killed the nWo
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Old 02-01-2014, 03:14 PM   #397
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I literally watched the Triple H/Jericho match last night, and honestly, out was pretty good match . Well paced, well worked. The crowd did pop for the finish, they were just gassed from blowing their lungs out for Hogan/Rock.

That's not either guys fault.
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Old 02-01-2014, 03:51 PM   #398
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HHH inisisted on going out last.

Remember when Scott Steiner came to the WWE and was hot as shit, and then HHH buried him. Steiner hadn't wrestled in a while so HHH wanted to make him look bad by having a ridiculously long match and wouldn't take some of Steiners moves.

Remember when HHH fought Orton at Wrestlemania and Orton got in no offence? That was fun.

Remember how HHH had a 15 minute promo on Raw that went about 13 minutes too long? Oh wait, that's every week.

Remember that epic Booker T and HHH feud? Where were you that day when that match was signed? Timeless. I may have been in heaven.

Remember when HHH unmasked Kane and it was an amazing moment, and then went on to bury him in every match, as well as fuck Kane's gf's corpse.

Remember when HHH and HBK had one massive sword fight reunion and fought 2 on 5 handicap matches against 5 young talent in the Spirit Squad that resulted in 2 of them leaving wrestling all together after DX won every match and then shit on them by throwing them in a box with OVW stamped on it. Good times.
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Old 02-01-2014, 03:51 PM   #399
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Leave the memories alone.
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Old 02-01-2014, 03:53 PM   #400
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